IGF1 vs Insulin and Metformin http://sciroxxonline.com/

[sciroxx-lab]

Some members have asked me about the usage in metformin, as well as insulin with or without GH. Both of these harsh drugs are actually used in most cases in combination with with GH to negate the negative effect of GH on insulin sensitivity. GH by its nature releases glucose (and fatty acids) to the circulation, this is part of it metabolic effect as a stress hormone. The raised blood sugar levels overloads the pancreas which leads in time to insulin resistance at least to some degree. Diet rich in high glycemic carbs has same effect to some extent, this is why some heavy duty athletes, who uses carb loading, especially post workout find the usage in insulin or metformin as helpful, it helps to balance the sugar levels and support the pancreas. Here is where the IGF1 shines, IGF1 is much more healthy and effective for this purpose, the IGF1 naturally balances the insulin levels and increases insulin sensitivity, helps to mobilize fatty acids which helps to reduce fat, in oppose to insulin which directly causes to store fat, and of course optimizes the anabolic, metabolic and anti catabolic effect of the body with or without GH.

For some references -

- Growth hormone or insulin-like growth factor I increases fat oxidation and decreases protein oxidation without altering energy expenditure in paren... - PubMed - NCBI
------------conclusions -
GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

-http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
-----------results and conclusions
RESULTS:
Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.

 

[Sixdog76]

That is good information.

I think the price difference between Insulin\Metformin and IGF is the biggest factor, with Insulin\Met being substantially cheaper to run than good IGF.

 

[AlphaLife]

So much cheaper

 

[sciroxx-lab]

Considering the proven effect and health benefits I would certainly consider taking the IGF1, even at a low dosage, and not messing with the insulin or metformin, I would certainly pay to avoid the dependency the pancreas may develop of these 2 drugs !

 

[Sixdog76]

What would you consider an effective low dose protocol?

 

[sciroxx-lab]

I would use lr3 at 30-60mcg for 5 weeks, the lr3 has a distinct autocrine effect, but its receptors on target tissues are the fastest to be downregulated, then run DES at bilateral injection to wokring muscles at 30-60 for 5 weeks, the DES has more of a paracrine effect and it interacts more locally in specific muscle tissue. then I would go to 5 weeks off

I would monitor my blood sugar levels from time to time, but this schedule will ensure proper insulin sensitivity

I would love to hear from the vets here their opinion and experience as well, and there are many more effective protocols

Of course the dosage may be higher in many cases

 

[pesty4077]

That is good information.

I think the price difference between Insulin\Metformin and IGF is the biggest factor, with Insulin\Met being substantially cheaper to run than good IGF.

Metformin is dirt cheap. To say it does not have health benefits is just not true. I rather take IGF too, however metformin has it's role in older people. Metformin has demonstrated some additional health benefits, such as anticancer potential and improved heart health.

LE Magazine, September 2001 - Report: The Multiple Benefits of Metformin

 

[sciroxx-lab]

Metformin is dirt cheap. To say it does not have health benefits is just not true. I rather take IGF too, however metformin has it's role in older people. Metformin has demonstrated some additional health benefits, such as anticancer potential and improved heart health.

LE Magazine, September 2001 - Report: The Multiple Benefits of Metformin

Indeed, I'm sorry if misundersttod, Metformin has proven benefits when suffering from insulin resistance, and I was not aware to other benefits as anti cancel agent, is it proven ?

I tried in this thread to show the synergistic effect of combining GH and IGF1, especially to healthy athletes in comparison to insulin and Mefrormin,

 

[RamboStallone]

Metformin is dirt cheap. To say it does not have health benefits is just not true. I rather take IGF too, however metformin has it's role in older people. Metformin has demonstrated some additional health benefits, such as anticancer potential and improved heart health.

LE Magazine, September 2001 - Report: The Multiple Benefits of Metformin

I agree. Metformin is a staple. Not sure why it's being compared to igf, I don't see the correlation. They work in completely different ways. Why would you be choosing one or the other?

 

[sciroxx-lab]

It's simple - Meformin is used to increase insulin sensitivity, many users use this tool to negate the negative impact of GH usage on insulin sensitivity, or to increase carbs loading which also overloads the pancreas. One of the major benefits of the IGF1 in addition to its distinct anabolic and anti catabolic effect, along with improved metabolic effect is increasing insulin sensitivity, this is what the medical literature I quoted show.

 

[K.H. Schneider]

Well, since one can't buy genuine IGF-1 but has to rely on ppl who print their names on funny vials with colorful tops which contain something one can't really test ...it's not really a question.

Btw, IGF-1 won't help you with insulin sensivity as Metformin does ...no matter what and which study comes up ...anyways this study has like xxx studies saying it's the other way round prolly.

 

[sciroxx-lab]

Well, since one can't buy genuine IGF-1 but has to rely on ppl who print their names on funny vials with colorful tops which contain something one can't really test ...it's not really a question.

Btw, IGF-1 won't help you with insulin sensivity as Metformin does ...no matter what and which study comes up ...anyways this study has like xxx studies saying it's the other way round prolly.

We're here exactly from the reasons you mentioned in your first sentence indeed, I challenge you as well as any of my customers to test the Somedin (IGF1) we produce, there is a dedicataed thread fior this on the lab tests section, it'll resemble the patented IGF1-lr3 by Repligen Swiss

IGF1 has its important roll in increasing insulin sensitivity and negate the negative impact of the GH on insulin sensitivity, it's clearly concluded in numerous clinical studies, a couple of them I quoted earlier. IGF1 is not a drug given for insulin resistance like metformin, but I emphasized here its important roll in optimizing metabolism and increasing insulin sensitivity

 

[pesty4077]

From what concreter told me his IGF is real good. Don't say things without some proof. Now let's get back on subject. What do you think about IGF on work out days and metformin on non workout days? I know both are beneficial. Or if you take IGF straight through for 20 to 30 days and get off the same time, what about metformin on off time? The reason I ask this is I want to do GH non stop for a few months and want my insulin levels good. hell, I am still learning here and anyone with some knowledge I want to learn a little for you.

 

[sciroxx-lab]

Well, since one can't buy genuine IGF-1 but has to rely on ppl who print their names on funny vials with colorful tops which contain something one can't really test ...it's not really a question.

Btw, IGF-1 won't help you with insulin sensivity as Metformin does ...no matter what and which study comes up ...anyways this study has like xxx studies saying it's the other way round prolly.

Here is a clinical review which deals with the markers to insulin resistance and the mechanism behind it as a result of GH therapy. As concluded GH therapy increases all the markers for insulin resistance, while IGF1 distinctively lowers it, so here is the importance and advantage of incorporating it with GH therapy. BTW - the same markers of insulin resistance are caused by the high glycemic high carbs western diet

Growth hormone replacement therapy regulates microRNA-29a and targets involved in insulin resistance. - PubMed - NCBI

KEY MESSAGES:
GHRT most significantly affects the ECM cluster in skeletal muscle from mice. GHRT downregulates miR-29a and upregulates miR-29a targets in skeletal muscle from mice. PTEN, COL3A1, FSTL1, SERPINH1, and SPARC are endogenous miR-29a targets in human myotubes. IGF1 decreases miR-29a levels in human myotubes. miR-29a and its targets are regulated during GHRT in skeletal muscle from humans.

 

[sciroxx-lab]

From what concreter told me his IGF is real good. Don't say things without some proof. Now let's get back on subject. What do you think about IGF on work out days and metformin on non workout days? I know both are beneficial. Or if you take IGF straight through for 20 to 30 days and get off the same time, what about metformin on off time? The reason I ask this is I want to do GH non stop for a few months and want my insulin levels good. hell, I am still learning here and anyone with some knowledge I want to learn a little for you.

This sounds like the proper plan boss !

Lets ask concreter, and will be happy to hear the advise of other vets and pros as well

 

[RamboStallone]

From what concreter told me his IGF is real good. Don't say things without some proof. Now let's get back on subject. What do you think about IGF on work out days and metformin on non workout days? I know both are beneficial. Or if you take IGF straight through for 20 to 30 days and get off the same time, what about metformin on off time? The reason I ask this is I want to do GH non stop for a few months and want my insulin levels good. hell, I am still learning here and anyone with some knowledge I want to learn a little for you.

I don't see any reason to separate them. I'm on metformin now twice a day AM and evening/postworkout. I also dose 200mcgs of igf1-des bilateral postworkout in the muscles trained. Use the lr3 on training days only in my opinion, this is the optimal time anyway. Igf is not cheap, so I try to get the most bang for my buck.

 

[RamboStallone]

I just looked at sciroxx website. That igf1 is the real deal I've been told. I've seen it elsewhere. I hope to try it for myself soon.

 

[pesty4077]

I don't see any reason to separate them. I'm on metformin now twice a day AM and evening/postworkout. I also dose 200mcgs of igf1-des bilateral postworkout in the muscles trained. Use the lr3 on training days only in my opinion, this is the optimal time anyway. Igf is not cheap, so I try to get the most bang for my buck.

Thanks, I appreciate that feedback. I was thinking the same, but not 100% sure.

 

[b_cornelius]

From what concreter told me his IGF is real good. Don't say things without some proof. Now let's get back on subject. What do you think about IGF on work out days and metformin on non workout days? I know both are beneficial. Or if you take IGF straight through for 20 to 30 days and get off the same time, what about metformin on off time? The reason I ask this is I want to do GH non stop for a few months and want my insulin levels good. hell, I am still learning here and anyone with some knowledge I want to learn a little for you.

It's best to use Insulin and GH on workout days (with metformin). This is the only way to increase intracellular MGF...you mostly have to make the MGF yourself because it always stays within the cell and uses a nuclear receptor. GH and Workout-Insulin may be the only way to effectively produce and use MGF.

IGF-1 R3 then is best on recovery days. Therefore, you could see how effective the every-other-day workout-regimen could be. Proliferation/Differentiation.

As far as IGF-LR3 goes, there are few places where you can get the pure protein that has been folded correctly. I've heard that Sciroxx has some good stuff, but I no proof.

 

[b_cornelius]

Just looking at a few posts here. It is important to note that skeletal muscle is always greedy for IGF.

Both Proliferation and DIfferentiation occurs concurrently in different muscle cells. Still the Proliferation/Differentiation split can be an effective approach. After a Workout the muscles produce MGF for about 6 hours or so, then they switch to IFG production. For such reasons, people often wait to inject their IGF in order to follow the ordered sequence.

Yet the body always has chronic/systematic levels of IGF because that is the sort of nature of IGF, even with the Binding proteins.

IGF and Androgens are very similar seeing as that they both are chronic in levels, and they both bind to other proteins that prolong, complicate, and specify their delivery and function. A long-term sort of thing.

GH should definitely be pulsed. Just short-transient increases. Normally GH is not elevated chronically, and it should not be if one wants to avoid all the disruptions.

So really you can have elevated IGF and Androgens any time, and the body actually has some complicated systems regarding it's specific delivery through their binding proteins. BUT IFG-1LR3 is preferred for IGF since you should not have the chronically elevated GH levels by hGH administration.

Pulses are best for GH. GH is a master hormone that is a part of your body's biological clock. Screw that up with hGH, then screw up your clock-work...and insulin insensitivity, etc. I remember B-boy saying that he made the best gains with the GHRP/GRP and IGF-1 Lr3 combo...sounds about right.

Now Insulin. People often use it in order to stimulate IGF with hGH, but you don't have to since you have IGF-1 Lr3. BUT you could use Insulin in order to increase MGF. MGF is created within the cell and used within the cell; normally, MGF stays with in the cell, which is different than IGF. So taking exogenous MGF isn't as effective, and you want to produce your own within the cell, using GH and Insulin around the mechanical workout.

Just taking GH or GHRP may be enough to increase your MGF at workout time, but let's think about Insulin for a minute. I know what people say. But for the studies that I've seen, I have to say:

Insulin is primarily an anti-catabolic hormone, and secondarily an anabolic hormone.

conversely,

IGF is primarily an anabolic hormone, and secondarily an anti-catabolic hormone.​

I know that people take insulin all day, and it is effective since it is a strong hormone, but really you can take IGF for that. The only time that the body could actually use some extra insulin is workout time, when things get shitty and the anti-catabolic nature comes into play...it continues to refill the muscle as it is falling behind.

So for the workout, there is Insulin and GH. They will increase your intracellular MGF, and they will have that anti-catabolic effect.

Elsewise, IGF is the anabolic agent.

And Androgens are the permissive factor for IGF. In fact, using Selective Anabolic Androgens are a way to control IGF in a selective way. Wherever the androgen stimulates, it will allow the IGF to do it's best work.

If we want to make IGF anymore selective, we will have to figure out specific protein vectors and those Binding Proteins. Until then, you can use the permissive factor of selective androgens to control the selectivity of IGF.