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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 08:30 AM
Massive G's Avatar
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Sub - Q low dose test revisited

I had read about Sub -Q injections for years for oils but never gave them a second thought. Thanks to emeric though..I read a lot of his posts and I'll admit I thought "BS" now way that little bit of test /hormone could be effective.
Then I tried it, and although I haven't got blood work yet I have felt better than ever for the past 3 months-physiologically sexually and energy wise.

I don't cycle (test plus anabolic or two) anymore and gave up IM cycles of no more than 600 mg a couple of years ago. I gave up "heavier"(2 grams of combo test deca tren) cycling in 2004 and went to the lower dosed safe limit of what I thought was 600 mg a week based on the NEJ Study of 1996 where they administered 600 mg a week to men for 12 weeks with no adverse effects.

I won't really go into some of the adverse effects of higher IM dosing but over the years I grew tired of them and sometimes missed a shot a week hoping the long esters would compensate. I use to hate the rising and lowering of the hormones in the blood after a shot and the mild test flu. I really think after so many years my body just hated the solvents and what ever oil it was suspended in (took many a vial of delatestry and upjohn test)

I haven't gotten any blood work to see what my levels are I am on a combo of test cyp with a little prop in it (25 mg sub q) EOD. Most notably this keeps my hematocrit lower, I still give a pint every 3 months or so but it is a lot better than giving a pint every 30 days and still fighting a 56 hematocrit.

This lower dosed sub q has kept my hematocrit down and I feel great.

I know a few older guys that "cycle" this way and love it 60 mgs of test a week and 60 mgs of deca and 30 mgs of tren enanthate a week- all sub q.
I told one of my old brothers in iron that he was 80's cycling back in the day when lower doses were the name of the game.

The key to the sub-q shots is keeping the volume to . 2 ml max. I would love to do prop only but never met a prop that wasn't painful and it would be an irritating shot for sure in the belly with prop only.

If I were still cycling heavy today I would cruise with the sub q test to give myself a break and clean out with out the crash. Hint to you guys looking to come down from time to time.

I still have to get bloodwork done because everyone asks me - what's your test level on this? But it really doesn't matter to me as I feel great it doesn't matter if my blood work is 400, 600 or 1000 ng/dl.

Thanks again to emeric for posting so much about the sub-q method it really works well, with out all the troublesome sides and keeps the testosterone levels in my opinion ideal.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 08:38 AM
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Posts: 373
Good post, I agree with the love for Subq injections. I'm pretty much done running higher dosages of test, and with the small amounts I exclusively pin Subq and feel great this way.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 08:51 AM
emeric delczeg's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massive G View Post
I had read about Sub -Q injections for years for oils but never gave them a second thought. Thanks to emeric though..I read a lot of his posts and I'll admit I thought "BS" now way that little bit of test /hormone could be effective.
Then I tried it, and although I haven't got blood work yet I have felt better than ever for the past 3 months-physiologically sexually and energy wise.

I don't cycle (test plus anabolic or two) anymore and gave up IM cycles of no more than 600 mg a couple of years ago. I gave up "heavier"(2 grams of combo test deca tren) cycling in 2004 and went to the lower dosed safe limit of what I thought was 600 mg a week based on the NEJ Study of 1996 where they administered 600 mg a week to men for 12 weeks with no adverse effects.

I won't really go into some of the adverse effects of higher IM dosing but over the years I grew tired of them and sometimes missed a shot a week hoping the long esters would compensate. I use to hate the rising and lowering of the hormones in the blood after a shot and the mild test flu. I really think after so many years my body just hated the solvents and what ever oil it was suspended in (took many a vial of delatestry and upjohn test)

I haven't gotten any blood work to see what my levels are I am on a combo of test cyp with a little prop in it (25 mg sub q) EOD. Most notably this keeps my hematocrit lower, I still give a pint every 3 months or so but it is a lot better than giving a pint every 30 days and still fighting a 56 hematocrit.

This lower dosed sub q has kept my hematocrit down and I feel great.

I know a few older guys that "cycle" this way and love it 60 mgs of test a week and 60 mgs of deca and 30 mgs of tren enanthate a week- all sub q.
I told one of my old brothers in iron that he was 80's cycling back in the day when lower doses were the name of the game.

The key to the sub-q shots is keeping the volume to . 2 ml max. I would love to do prop only but never met a prop that wasn't painful and it would be an irritating shot for sure in the belly with prop only.

If I were still cycling heavy today I would cruise with the sub q test to give myself a break and clean out with out the crash. Hint to you guys looking to come down from time to time.

I still have to get bloodwork done because everyone asks me - what's your test level on this? But it really doesn't matter to me as I feel great it doesn't matter if my blood work is 400, 600 or 1000 ng/dl.

Thanks again to emeric for posting so much about the sub-q method it really works well, with out all the troublesome sides and keeps the testosterone levels in my opinion ideal.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 09:22 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,558
Emeric is such a knowledgeable guy and I wish more people listen to him. Have you seen the photos he posted a few months back? He looks huge and lean and is on 60-80mg of test a week.

I love his protocol, it works great, better test levels with lower doses and healthier overall.

Emeric, if I was to inject 20mg of test ed or eod IM as opposed to SQ, what would the difference be? Would the test levels be the same? Higher estrogen? More sides?

Thank you
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 10:02 AM
Registered Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 228
Thanks for posting this Massive G. I did the same thing with my HRT (180 cyp a week) after reading your original post on it. I also did the 20mg every other day. I felt better, strength was good, and I kept getting asked if I lost weight but the scale stayed the same. Had bloodwork and my test was in the 800s but my free test was in acceptable range (usually higher) and my estrogen levels were way down. It defintely works.

Last edited by angus62; 02-28-2015 at 10:11 AM.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 10:15 AM
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massive G View Post
I had read about Sub -Q injections for years for oils but never gave them a second thought. Thanks to emeric though..I read a lot of his posts and I'll admit I thought "BS" now way that little bit of test /hormone could be effective.
Then I tried it, and although I haven't got blood work yet I have felt better than ever for the past 3 months-physiologically sexually and energy wise.

I don't cycle (test plus anabolic or two) anymore and gave up IM cycles of no more than 600 mg a couple of years ago. I gave up "heavier"(2 grams of combo test deca tren) cycling in 2004 and went to the lower dosed safe limit of what I thought was 600 mg a week based on the NEJ Study of 1996 where they administered 600 mg a week to men for 12 weeks with no adverse effects.

I won't really go into some of the adverse effects of higher IM dosing but over the years I grew tired of them and sometimes missed a shot a week hoping the long esters would compensate. I use to hate the rising and lowering of the hormones in the blood after a shot and the mild test flu. I really think after so many years my body just hated the solvents and what ever oil it was suspended in (took many a vial of delatestry and upjohn test)

I haven't gotten any blood work to see what my levels are I am on a combo of test cyp with a little prop in it (25 mg sub q) EOD. Most notably this keeps my hematocrit lower, I still give a pint every 3 months or so but it is a lot better than giving a pint every 30 days and still fighting a 56 hematocrit.

This lower dosed sub q has kept my hematocrit down and I feel great.

I know a few older guys that "cycle" this way and love it 60 mgs of test a week and 60 mgs of deca and 30 mgs of tren enanthate a week- all sub q.
I told one of my old brothers in iron that he was 80's cycling back in the day when lower doses were the name of the game.

The key to the sub-q shots is keeping the volume to . 2 ml max. I would love to do prop only but never met a prop that wasn't painful and it would be an irritating shot for sure in the belly with prop only.

If I were still cycling heavy today I would cruise with the sub q test to give myself a break and clean out with out the crash. Hint to you guys looking to come down from time to time.

I still have to get bloodwork done because everyone asks me - what's your test level on this? But it really doesn't matter to me as I feel great it doesn't matter if my blood work is 400, 600 or 1000 ng/dl.

Thanks again to emeric for posting so much about the sub-q method it really works well, with out all the troublesome sides and keeps the testosterone levels in my opinion ideal.
Have you ever considered 10mg subq test suspension daily? I felt fantastic doing that and the shots were painless.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 10:26 AM
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This is exactly what two of the best trt docotrs are suggesting. Dr gordon and crisler

60 to 80mg week test c sub q, frequent injections... requires no AI
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 11:48 AM
emeric delczeg's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warlock View Post
Emeric is such a knowledgeable guy and I wish more people listen to him. Have you seen the photos he posted a few months back? He looks huge and lean and is on 60-80mg of test a week.

I love his protocol, it works great, better test levels with lower doses and healthier overall.

Emeric, if I was to inject 20mg of test ed or eod IM as opposed to SQ, what would the difference be? Would the test levels be the same? Higher estrogen? More sides?

Thank you
Your test levels should be in high normal range and you estrogen in normal high range also. By lowering to 20mg EOD you will increase your body sensitivity to the androgen. You should finish you training in 45 minutes. Eat 80g complex carbs 2 1/2 hours before training with 40g protein from food ( I prefer whole eggs).
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 11:51 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by emeric delczeg View Post
Your test levels should be in high normal range and you estrogen in normal high range also. By lowering to 20mg EOD you will increase your body sensitivity to the androgen. You should finish you training in 45 minutes. Eat 80g complex carbs 2 1/2 hours before training with 40g protein from food ( I prefer whole eggs).
Thanks Emeric. But what is the difference between injecting the 20mg eod SQ vs IM? Does it have to be SQ or can you inject it IM with the same results?
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 11:58 AM
emeric delczeg's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHAPS View Post
Have you ever considered 10mg subq test suspension daily? I felt fantastic doing that and the shots were painless.
10mg daily is OK.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 11:59 AM
emeric delczeg's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warlock View Post
Thanks Emeric. But what is the difference between injecting the 20mg eod SQ vs IM? Does it have to be SQ or can you inject it IM with the same results?
Lower estrogen conversion.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 12:09 PM
Akamai's Avatar
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Posts: 2,039
It works.

Ak
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 12:41 PM
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Does anyone have the link to the old post about sub q test.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 12:54 PM
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Posts: 224
Anybody try this with TNE? Maybe 10mg twice a day?
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 01:05 PM
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Is 60-80mg (20mg EOD) subQ per week REALLY better than 150mg IM (2x weekly) per week?

I have always had trouble believing this but never tried the lower dose sub q
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2015, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothuman View Post
Is 60-80mg (20mg EOD) subQ per week REALLY better than 150mg IM (2x weekly) per week?

I have always had trouble believing this but never tried the lower dose sub q
you;d be surprise how good you may feel even if your serum levels were maybe just a couple hundred less using the lower subQ dose.. labs show one thing but personal sense of feeling and wellbeing is another... also the ester has some play involved.. like prop for example should probably be daily but you could only need to pin 10-15mg... an extremely small volume.. now if you did test e or c then EOD or E3D would probably be best.. and the reason why subQ is so effective is your subcutaneous tissue has a lesser but more stable level of blood circulation as opposed to IM where your blood circulation can vary which in turn can cause potential peaks and valleys which in turn effects your aromatase levels and possibly allowing for more estrogen conversion...

also for appearance purposes, the smaller volume more frequent subQ pins hide better when you have low bf levels... you start trying to push ,5cc in a spot and that oil will sit for close to a couple weeks before being fully assimilated by your body... the oil still stays long after the ester is cleaved and the test is long gone.. so be sure to keep that in mind... of course you can always be creative too on site injects instead of the common midsection area.. either way is just something to be aware of...

and personally when I cruise subQ i prefer a test e or c at 3x/wk but usually go in the 125mg range to get the highest end of the "normal range" but my age also has something to do with it also since when your in your 30s-40s and your natural test levels can potentially decline your shbg levels are still high but if I recall the shbg levels start dropping off when in your 50s so a smaller dose will be equally or more effective depending on your age range..
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Last edited by ManoftheWorld; 02-28-2015 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:12 PM
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I do the same. but use half test half tren.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:25 PM
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Just a tip to add here for my Sub Q brothers:

Crisler recommends a tuberculin pin. BIG difference whether Sub-Q or IM. It's just a slightly larger gauge which has two plusses; No red lumps, and you can draw oils with it. The slin can be too fine a stream and irritate tissue, causing the red itchy lump.

I've done SQ with Test suspension (oil), Test E, Test P and even Trens E and A.
It works, less bloat, decent libido, less gear used and lower BP.

The suspension I liked a lot. 7-10mg in the morning, works all day and lowering by evening. Felt more natural. I'd love to try a decent water-based. No oil buildup. But I fear the lack of sterility.

Downsides as mentioned above are that with daily shots, the oil sticks around and can add up. So I had to move shots around to quads, obliques, stomach area, and IM in the shoulders. Tried Sub Q glutes and it got lumpy, just not enough circulation there, I guess.
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Old 02-28-2015, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by aussiebulldog View Post
I do the same. but use half test half tren.
I never had bloods done during the short time on the SQ Test/Tren combo. How were your bloods on that?
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Old 02-28-2015, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nothuman View Post
Is 60-80mg (20mg EOD) subQ per week REALLY better than 150mg IM (2x weekly) per week?

I have always had trouble believing this but never tried the lower dose sub q
It is bro!

The thing is do not go by the serum numbers. Start with 60mg sub q ew and see how you feel after 3 or 4 weeks. Bump it by 10mg and wait another 3 or 4 weeks. Repeat this til you feel great, high libido, and morning woods

Zinc is strogly suggeated 100mg a day
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