[langtitle=vi]Mike Arnold insulin protocol question[/langtitle]

Crod2666 · Apr 9, 2014

[lang=vi]Hey I had a question for mike or anyone else who can lend a hand. With mikes insulin protocol, how would you use hgh, igf-1 of any kind or other peptides around the outlined insulin protocol?[/lang]

warlock · Apr 11, 2014

Crod2666 said:
[lang=vi]Hey I had a question for mike or anyone else who can lend a hand. With mikes insulin protocol, how would you use hgh, igf-1 of any kind or other peptides around the outlined insulin protocol?[/lang]

I believe he recommends IGF DES 10 minutes before workout and GH 20 minutes post-workout.

warlock · Apr 11, 2014

With the Humalin R, he recommends the shot 45 minutes before the workout, then 20 minutes before, he recommends the first shake.

Anyone knows if you should eat anything with the shot of slin 45 minutes prior to the workout? Or you will be safe waiting 25 minutes before shake?

Knight9 · Apr 11, 2014

warlock said:
With the Humalin R, he recommends the shot 45 minutes before the workout, then 20 minutes before, he recommends the first shake.

Anyone knows if you should eat anything with the shot of slin 45 minutes prior to the workout? Or you will be safe waiting 25 minutes before shake?

No, you dont eat anything with the shot. Waiting 20min is fine. It'll be better if you have had meals several hours before that included carbs though.

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warlock · Apr 11, 2014

Knight9 said:
No, you dont eat anything with the shot. Waiting 20min is fine. It'll be better if you have had meals several hours before that included carbs though.

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Got it. Thanks

Mike Arnold · Apr 19, 2014

Please guys, keep in mind that when I wrote that pre-workout protocol, it was designed for guys who wanted a simple, safe program they could run long-term. When used on such a limited basis (the average person trains 3-5X weekly), it is unlikely to cause any type of significant insulin resistance. With pre-workout being the single most effective time to use insulin, the timing was a no-brainer.

In addition, I actually recommend Humulin R be used in most cases at this point, as it stays active throughout both the workout and post-workout windows.

As far as all the other ingredients in the program, my opinions have changed since, as newer, better compounds are now available. For example, some of the pumpo-inducing compounds are a bit out-dated. Better alternatives are now available.

On top of that, I have made adjustments to both the number of shakes consumed (now only 2), as well as the nutrients included in the shakes. I still include rapidly digesting, hydrolyzed proteins in one of the shakes, as well as high mollecular weight carbs, such as branched chain cyclic dextrins. But...I now believe adding certain other proteins & carbs further improves its effectiveness.

The 2nd shake is consumed immediately post-workout and is more of a food-based shake, which includes a variety of fast, moderate, and slow digesting proteins & carbs.

As for secondary ingredients, things like Leucine & creatine will always remain, but most of the other ingredients are either optional or out-dated.

Lastly, the insulin dose in the original program is just a generic dose for the typical beginner. Optimal dosing can vary widely among different people, with bodyweight, insulin sensitivity, and food intake all determing one's ideal dose.

The origial program was good, with many people getting great results without damaging their insulin sensitivity, but science is always revealing new and more effective ways of doing things...and providing new and more effective compounds. Neither should we discount the insight that real-world experience has to offer us when it comes to improving program construction.

It is important for me to point this out, as it has been several years since I originally introduced that protocol and a lot of things have changed since then. Quite frankly, I don't see too many people these days investing very much time or effort into improving the effectiveness of their insulin protocols...or at least they're not talking about it publically. If the goal is maximizing lean mass gain, we should be attempting to ride the fine line between maximizing insulin dose, frequency, and duration, while simultaneously optimizing insulin sensitivity and Glut-4 transportation. The more we can optimize those 2 critical aspects of insulin efficacy, the more insulin we can use without suffering the health problems associated with abuse.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to get exact answers on this, but modern science has provided us with quite a bit of direction. Insulin is a wonderful compound--its feedback mechanisms let is know loud and clear when we are doing something wrong and when something is wrong, its effectiveness is reduced...because wrong means reduced insulin sensitivity/Glut-4 transportation. So, in this sense, health & effectiveness are closely related.

Never, ever listen to the guys whose only answer to better results are the words "more" and "longer"...because when those are the only 2 variables being considered, the body will fight against you and eventually, not only will your results get worse and worse, both so will your health. This is why I so frequently recommend the pre-workout only protocol for most people...because unless someone is really paying attention to everything that is going on internally and taking steps to address these changes, problems will result.

ironceltic12 · Apr 19, 2014

Mike is this new protocol posted anywhere? Great post btw

Knight9 · Apr 19, 2014

Mike Arnold said:
Please guys, keep in mind that when I wrote that pre-workout protocol, it was designed for guys who wanted a simple, safe program they could run long-term. When used on such a limited basis (the average person trains 3-5X weekly), it is unlikely to cause any type of significant insulin resistance. With pre-workout being the single most effective time to use insulin, the timing was a no-brainer.

In addition, I actually recommend Humulin R be used in most cases at this point, as it stays active throughout both the workout and post-workout windows.

As far as all the other ingredients in the program, my opinions have changed since, as newer, better compounds are now available. For example, some of the pumpo-inducing compounds are a bit out-dated. Better alternatives are now available.

On top of that, I have made adjustments to both the number of shakes consumed (now only 2), as well as the nutrients included in the shakes. I still include rapidly digesting, hydrolyzed proteins in one of the shakes, as well as high mollecular weight carbs, such as branched chain cyclic dextrins. But...I now believe adding certain other proteins & carbs further improves its effectiveness.

The 2nd shake is consumed immediately post-workout and is more of a food-based shake, which includes a variety of fast, moderate, and slow digesting proteins & carbs.

As for secondary ingredients, things like Leucine & creatine will always remain, but most of the other ingredients are either optional or out-dated.

Lastly, the insulin dose in the original program is just a generic dose for the typical beginner. Optimal dosing can vary widely among different people, with bodyweight, insulin sensitivity, and food intake all determing one's ideal dose.

The origial program was good, with many people getting great results without damaging their insulin sensitivity, but science is always revealing new and more effective ways of doing things...and providing new and more effective compounds. Neither should we discount the insight that real-world experience has to offer us when it comes to improving program construction.

It is important for me to point this out, as it has been several years since I originally introduced that protocol and a lot of things have changed since then. Quite frankly, I don't see too many people these days investing very much time or effort into improving the effectiveness of their insulin protocols...or at least they're not talking about it publically. If the goal is maximizing lean mass gain, we should be attempting to ride the fine line between maximizing insulin dose, frequency, and duration, while simultaneously optimizing insulin sensitivity and Glut-4 transportation. The more we can optimize those 2 critical aspects of insulin efficacy, the more insulin we can use without suffering the health problems associated with abuse.

Unfortunately, it is difficult to get exact answers on this, but modern science has provided us with quite a bit of direction. Insulin is a wonderful compound--its feedback mechanisms let is know loud and clear when we are doing something wrong and when something is wrong, its effectiveness is reduced...because wrong means reduced insulin sensitivity/Glut-4 transportation. So, in this sense, health & effectiveness are closely related.

Never, ever listen to the guys whose only answer to better results are the words "more" and "longer"...because when those are the only 2 variables being considered, the body will fight against you and eventually, not only will your results get worse and worse, both so will your health. This is why I so frequently recommend the pre-workout only protocol for most people...because unless someone is really paying attention to everything that is going on internally and taking steps to address these changes, problems will result.

Yes, Mike...are you willing to post your updated protocol? It'd be interesting to see what has changed.

Do you still use GPLC? Do you use agmatine, citrulline malate, or anything other new goodies? Really interested in seeing how the basic protocol has evolved.:headbang:

Mike Arnold · Apr 20, 2014

ironceltic12 said:
Mike is this new protocol posted anywhere? Great post btw

Knight9 said:
Yes, Mike...are you willing to post your updated protocol? It'd be interesting to see what has changed.

Do you still use GPLC? Do you use agmatine, citrulline malate, or anything other new goodies? Really interested in seeing how the basic protocol has evolved.:headbang:

Citrulline and agmatine are both worthy additions and I often recommed them, but...they are still secondary ingredients and therefore, optional. The cost of BB'ing can get really out of control if we sart using every effective/semi-effective ingredient out there, so what is recommended will change depending on someone's finances, goals, etc.

I normally don't recommend GPLC anymore--not because it isn't helpful, but because newer combos, like agmatine and citrulline, work better. If finances are limitless, fine, go ahead and add in it, but I don't know to many people in that situation.

Primary ingredients will always be proteins & carbs, as they form the building blocks for muscle growth. I also consider leucine and creatine to be basic stock, but most everything ese is optional.

I don't have a single program I recommend for everyone. I take everyone's situation into consideration and go from there.

Knight9 · Apr 20, 2014

Mike Arnold said:
Citrulline and agmatine are both worthy additions and I often recommed them, but...they are still secondary ingredients and therefore, optional. The cost of BB'ing can get really out of control if we sart using every effective/semi-effective ingredient out there, so what is recommended will change depending on someone's finances, goals, etc.

I normally don't recommend GPLC anymore--not because it isn't helpful, but because newer combos, like agmatine and citrulline, work better. If finances are limitless, fine, go ahead and add in it, but I don't know to many people in that situation.

Primary ingredients will always be proteins & carbs, as they form the building blocks for muscle growth. I also consider leucine and creatine to be basic stock, but most everything ese is optional.

I don't have a single program I recommend for everyone. I take everyone's situation into consideration and go from there.

Great answer.
Seems to me that basically leaves these all as "if you can" / "if you want" options.

Agmatine
Citrulline Malate
GPLC
Beta Alanine
Glycerol MS
Glutamine
Taurine
Vitamin C
Potassium

And to round out the main ones...
Hydrolyzed protein
HBCD
Leucine
Creatine

Sometimes I even add sea salt. I'm forever trying to figure out what's worth it and what isn't. Next up: TMG/Betaine Anhydrous.

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Knight9 · Apr 20, 2014

Mike, keep an eye out for a new and improved Glycerol by Glanbia that is not attached to stearic acid and reportedly much better.
It's called Hydromax and is 65% actual glycerol.

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ironceltic12 · Apr 20, 2014

Knight9 said:
Mike, keep an eye out for a new and improved Glycerol by Glanbia that is not attached to stearic acid and reportedly much better.
It's called Hydromax and is 65% actual glycerol.

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I have the new razor8 with that included in it and I must say it's a stout formula

Knight9 · Apr 20, 2014

ironceltic12 said:
I have the new razor8 with that included in it and I must say it's a stout formula

I was just looking at where to buy razor8. Right now, it's the only product I know of using it. Great to hear.

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ironceltic12 · Apr 20, 2014

Mike could we get just a little more info on the second "food based" shake and then I'll try to leave you alone lol?

Mike Arnold · Apr 20, 2014

ironceltic12 said:
Mike could we get just a little more info on the second "food based" shake and then I'll try to leave you alone lol?

I am hesitant to post any one thing as the "standard" because not everyone responds the same to all foods.

Over time, I have found that the greatest increase in muscle fullness occurs when a large dose of Humulin is taken with a massive meal (shake or whole food) containing a variety of fast medium, and slow digesting carbs & proteins. Even some fats are involved, as it is difficult to remove all fats from foods anyway.

Some of my client's are consuming over 2,000 calories in this feeding alone, with 40 IU of insulin or more. 4-5 hours after this, the increase in muscle fullness is extreme. Other things may or may not be added to this feeding, depending on finances.

Knight9 · Apr 20, 2014

Mike you are being a bit vague and its a bit hard to read between the lines. And what does a food - based shake mean?

Originally the parameters were 15iu humulin.....180g carbs + 60g hydrolyzed whey/beef protein.

In your CURRENT AND EVOLVED plan, assuming the same individual was doing 15iu......what does the first shake look like(macro and ingredient wise) and then what is A POSSIBILITY of how the 2nd shake may look(the one consumed right after workout)?

And then I presume a whole food meal an hour after the 2nd shake.
Let's just say 8oz lean meat and 2 cups rice.

Let's assume the budget allows for what is necessary and within reason.

In my experiments lately, I have been using 8g citrulline malate and 1g agmatine. Do your preferred recommended doses differ?
When I get TMG I will likely dose at 2.5-4g.

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