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T4 use with Peps...especially CJC Dac etc

Knight9

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Have I missed this? I thought green tea extract and huperzine were the focal points, but it seems t4 is extremely complimentary in suppressing somatostatin...
 
Here is the info(quotes) I was able to gather from a very credible source/prep coach who is very intelligent and not a member of this board.

Gh suppresses TSH downgrading translation from t4 to t3, it is this translation that makes gh anabolic, using t4 offsets the down regulation of TSH and pick up the slack, allowing acknowledgment of igf to continue

Please see above in the thread where I talk about importance of t4, in this, adding to the need to continue translation of t4 to t3 to retain the recognition of and prevent down regulation of igf...adding to that suppressed TSH initiates somatostatin, which prevents release of gh in negative feedback

...basically t4 enables elevated igf

..it's using T4 that prevents the negative loop of somatatostatin initiation preventing gh release
 
Read this a long time ago and gave a good run with both peps and gh. Probably about a year. In all honesty I still prefer t3 with my gh and peps despite t4 being better on paper. I had good proper prescription stuff picked upb from wall mart too. That said I've never run it with dac, but with the water and cts from dac and mk677 I probably couldn't handle it being any more effective at gh release
 
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Here is the info(quotes) I was able to gather from a very credible source/prep coach who is very intelligent and not a member of this board.

Gh suppresses TSH downgrading translation from t4 to t3, it is this translation that makes gh anabolic, using t4 offsets the down regulation of TSH and pick up the slack, allowing acknowledgment of igf to continue

Please see above in the thread where I talk about importance of t4, in this, adding to the need to continue translation of t4 to t3 to retain the recognition of and prevent down regulation of igf...adding to that suppressed TSH initiates somatostatin, which prevents release of gh in negative feedback

...basically t4 enables elevated igf

..it's using T4 that prevents the negative loop of somatatostatin initiation preventing gh release

Ive posted on this before, and never got much feedback (because nobody has a fucking clue). Its along the same lines as the thinking that GH and T4 need to be used concurrently for a "synergy" and improved IGF and T3 is NOT ideal to be used. That T4 with GH actually makes the GH "more effective." This was widely popularized by a long piece that Anthony Roberts (lol) did a while back.

Here is more of that hypothesis (basically a re-write of Anthony's first post on it) - and significant rebuttal on why the BELOW piece is WRONG and Anthony Roberts is wrong. Many others have long said just use t3 and gh, the t4 synergy bs is just that, bs.

GH and T4 article by Mark Stent [Archive] - AFboard

Growth Hormone and T4: Anabolic Synergy

By Mark Stent (B.Sc, Dipl Dat, SPN, Founder of Muscle SA • Index page (Domain registered on behalf of our client by domains.co.za) and Muscle Fusion Nutrition Stores)

Growth hormone and thyroid hormones have been standard drugs in the arsenals of bodybuilders for years. Growth hormone has been used for its anabolic, muscle cell increasing, fat loss and anti aging properties. Thyroid hormones have been used for the fat loss, stimulatory and (to a lesser extent) anabolic effects. In this article I will look at the synergies between the two different types of thyroid hormone (T4 and T3) and Growth hormone (GH) and their applications in bodybuilding.

Before we get into the juicy stuff, we need to start with a little ‘geek-talk’ and some physiology.

The body produces two thyroid hormones, the first is thyroxine (T4) and the second is triiodothyronine (T3), which is the most widely used thyroid hormone in the world of muscle building. T4 is the inactive thyroid hormone and needs to be converted to T3 to exert thyroid-specific effects. This is done by the enzymes in the deiodinase group, of which there are 3 types – D1 and D2, which involved in the initiation of the process of conversion of T4 to T3 and D3, which is involved in the deactivation process.

The secretion of T4 is created in the thyroid gland and is stimulated by Thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), which in turn is stimulated by Thryrotropin Releasing hormone (TRH). So, when T3 levels rise, the body says, ‘hey, I have enough T3 floating around, so I need to cut back’, which it does by suppressing TSH (this is known as a ‘negative feedback loop’). Incidentally, thyroid hormones require insulin or IGF-1 to trigger their effects.

Growth hormone (GH) is produced in the pituitary gland and is regulated by factors such as hormones and enzymes. It is regulated by two hormones Somatostatin (SS) and Growth hormone releasing hormone (GHRH). When there is too much GH circulating the body another negative feedback loop tells it to produce SS to decrease GH levels. When the body has too little GH, GHRH is produced.

GH has the ability to stimulate the conversion of T4 to T3, making thyroid hormones partially dependent on GH. Somatostatin (which is secreted when GH levels are too high) can also inhibit TSH secretion or reduce TRH secretion, which means it can limit the amount of T4 produced by the body. This means that although GH increases the conversion of T4 to T3, which means more T3, it may actually mean lower than normal T4 levels.

GH gene transcription is what gives GH its wonderful effects (such as muscle growth, fat loss etc) and T3 enhances these effects, making GH and T3 extremely synergistic, in fact, T3 is the limiting factor in exogenous GH usage. Here we now have a contradiction: T3 and GH are synergistic, but too much T3 decreases the anabolic effects of GH.

This is where Anthony Roberts (a well known steroid and performance enhancing drugs expert) hypothesised that it is the conversion process of T4 to T3 that is important. Let me explain. When there is too much T3 in the body and normal levels of T4, the thyroid sends a signal to produce less D1 and D2 (the activators) and more of D3 (the in-activator) and thus inhibits many of the synergistic effects of T3. When D3 levels are high, growth factors such as IGF-1 are stimulated, which means D3 is an important part of the equation with regards to the anabolic effects of GH.

Now for the part you have all been waiting for, the summary and conclusion…

When growth hormone is taken, along with T3, the GH will stop converting T4 to T3 after a certain point, which means it will shut of the good, anabolic effects of GH by killing the pathway that creates them! This, to me, seems like a bad thing! Now if we add T4 into a GH cycle, we would enhance this pathway, giving the GH more anabolic effects!

Remember that T4 alone is pretty ineffective for our purposes and requires something like GH to be made effective.

I have actually seen how effective using T4 in conjunction with GH is, first hand. An athlete I was working with was dieting for a show using GH and T3 (along with many other anabolic compounds), but was seeing no change in his fat to muscle ratio. Even with changes in his diet, such as lowering carbs, increasing cardio and even lowering calories, there were minimal changes, at best. T4 was introduced and within 1 week a change of 2.5% body fat and an increase of 1kg of muscle was measured! This is a pretty drastic change in any book.

The way I see it, growth hormone costs a lot, and, if it were me, I would want to maximise it as much as possible to get a better ‘bang for my buck’, T4 seems to be the catalyst here and without it, GH is a waste of money.
 
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Dave Kalick is the coach...seems like he knows his shit - which is why I give it some potential merit.
 
Dave Kalick is the coach...seems like he knows his shit - which is why I give it some potential merit.

Well, the stuff I pasted reads to be very compelling. So if that is the type of source he got it from, maybe he's just sort of regurgitating. Not many people have a great handle on that level of hormonal interplay. But the counter opinions out there, which I also find credible, seem to say this theory/hypothesis is flawed.

It appears to be a battle of gurus and who you want to believe. I dont have a good enough foundation in that specific area to even have a fucking educated guess. I just read the shit like everyone else and go with what sounds logical based on my limited understanding. As ive done that, I've lost faith in the theory that T4 + GH/peps is superior to T3+GH/peps and/or that T4+GH makes the GH "more effective" through some conversion synergy.
 
I remember reading some good info regarding this on Basskiller's site in the past.
I'll see if I can find it tonight.
 
Dave Kalick himself was on PED radio and discussed this very topic

**broken link removed**
 
Kalick knows his shit very well, he's a good and very smart coach. He told me about this about a year ago, and sucks to say but I am yet to try it out but plan on very very soon. Just need to get the T4 in lol.
 
I Always preferred T4 over t3 and it should compliment my MK run this mnth nicely.
 
I've been using T4 with my peps for this prep and I am just getting leaner and leaner without even trying. I did not know about the somatostatin inhibition. I just read more about the importance of the T4 to T3 conversion needed.
 
I've been using T4 with my peps for this prep and I am just getting leaner and leaner without even trying. I did not know about the somatostatin inhibition. I just read more about the importance of the T4 to T3 conversion needed.
This is awesome, what dose? Any t3 with it?
 
I know it has been a topic of debate, but is a supplemental dose of 25mcg t3 necessary with gh/peptides? I'm not looking in actively losing fat, otherwise I would increase dosage, I'm looking for reasons as to why some people claim you should supplement t3 with it and what benefits it will give
 
What dose of t4 do you prefer when cutting? No additional t3 to it?

With T-3, I burn way to fast as I already have a crazy metabolism.
T-4 at 200 is mild due to the conversion even though some say it converts to 25mcgs of T-3.
.
 
For people who have used t4 with peps and gh what kind of dose would you recommend?
 
I have never used t3 or t4 so curious how guys find each of them. I may have to try one as I could do with the boost.
 
For people who have used t4 with peps and gh what kind of dose would you recommend?
As I said, 100mcg was recommended. 100mcg t4 is nothing like 100mcg t3...in fact they are usually in a 4:1 ratio I believe. (Something in my head tells me that.)
 

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