rich piana hcg after cycle

bbg420 · Jun 15, 2013

what do you guys make of his theory don't take test and hcg together save the hcg for when you go off test in pct

BigMatt · Jun 15, 2013

it make sense and its not the first time i heard this.

jay_dub · Jun 15, 2013

*waits for Knight9 to see this*

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk 2

Aikman56 · Jun 15, 2013

jay_dub said:
*waits for Knight9 to see this*

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk 2

I'm making popcorn.

Stayinfit · Jun 15, 2013

I see Kaladryn on the thread...waitin to see what he says.

Kaladryn · Jun 15, 2013

bbg420 said:
what do you guys make of his theory don't take test and hcg together save the hcg for when you go off test in pct

This is what everyone did in the 80s and 90s, HCG was blasted 5000iu for 2-3 shots usually, sometimes there was some kind taper involved, but doses usually started in the 5k range. I believe this protocol originated in the medical community.

It isn't broscience that HCG causes leydig cell desensitization, there is a lot of research on this subject. In fact, HCG is frequently used to CAUSE leydig desensitization in many studies.

Something interesting I came across, could HCG be lowering your HDL?

Serum lipoproteins increase testosterone production in hCG-desensitized Leydig cells. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

Aikman56 · Jun 15, 2013

Kaladryn said:
This is what everyone did in the 80s and 90s, HCG was blasted 5000iu for 2-3 shots usually, sometimes there was some kind taper involved, but doses usually started in the 5k range. I believe this protocol originated in the medical community.

It isn't broscience that HCG causes leydig cell desensitization, there is a lot of research on this subject. In fact, HCG is frequently used to CAUSE leydig desensitization in many studies.

Something interesting I came across, could HCG be lowering your HDL?

Serum lipoproteins increase testosterone production in hCG-desensitized Leydig cells. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

So do you think this type of protocol has merit, as opposed to "traditional"PCT that we were discussing in the other thread?

Knight9 · Jun 16, 2013

jay_dub said:
*waits for Knight9 to see this*

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk 2

Primarily, I always emphasize leydig cell desensitization is a REAL thing. Though hrt doctors who dont know any better still prescribe hcg and arimidex over aromasin. More money in their pockets...and a sign of them not evolving.

I also think it doesnt make sense to shut yourself down while on...and continually stimulate or jump start your balls(leydig cells). Who cares about testicular size really as long as things work correctly.

Hcg also has a host of sides that are possible including estrogen conversion.

Hcg would be better used post cycle...but not at the large dosages Rich suggests imo...like Kaladryn said, thats outdated practice.

Triptorelin seems to be the real way to go when wanting to restore natural levels as highly as possible. But many on here would probably need trt if they monitored how well they truly recovered.

Note...in 2006 I ran 250iu hcg 2x a week on cycle(test e 500mg) and it didnt make any difference in recovering by my estimation. Had I ran a more suppressive compound along with it, it may have been a better application.

KillerStack · Jun 16, 2013

Knight9 said:
Primarily, I always emphasize leydig cell desensitization is a REAL thing. Though hrt doctors who dont know any better still prescribe hcg and arimidex over aromasin. More money in their pockets...and a sign of them not evolving.

I also think it doesnt make sense to shut yourself down while on...and continually stimulate or jump start your balls(leydig cells). Who cares about testicular size really as long as things work correctly.

Hcg also has a host of sides that are possible including estrogen conversion.

Hcg would be better used post cycle...but not at the large dosages Rich suggests imo...like Kaladryn said, thats outdated practice.

Triptorelin seems to be the real way to go when wanting to restore natural levels as highly as possible. But many on here would probably need trt if they monitored how well they truly recovered.

Note...in 2006 I ran 250iu hcg 2x a week on cycle(test e 500mg) and it didnt make any difference in recovering by my estimation. Had I ran a more suppressive compound along with it, it may have been a better application.

Is there new data on Triptorelin in steroid users trying to recover? When I looked a long time ago there was only one single case study IIRC. A single shot which worked to restore the individual. A single shot still the protocol used by forumites? Tripto is the chemical castration agent, right? I.e. extremely suppressive if done more than once?

Regarding HCG during cycle, I remember "experts" saying LH typically recovered quickly.... the problem was at the testicle level due to inactivity. On paper keeping testes active would be a good idea for quick recovery, no?

How quickly has the desensitization occured in humans. Dosage, duration?

Let's say I wanted to attempt recovery, partial or otherwise, after years and years of constant steroid use- anyone have a theoretical protocol involving anything and everything to attempt this - HCG, HMG, Clo, Ari, Aro, D-Asp, Tamox, Tripto, Dopaminergics, IGF-1 etc, etc.

My theorizing, before looking at pubmed etc, would be to get thing going artificially, then keeping it going artificially for a long time, say with 200iu HCG twice weekly, low dose anti-aromatase to keep estrogen in a low range, tamox at maybe 5-10mg daily or low dose Clomid, maybe some d-asp cycled in and out... do this for say 6 months before trying to get off. Thoughts?

yatyas314 · Jun 16, 2013

here is my pct ..Short and aggresive

The day after my last shot
week 1-4 500 iu ED
week 4-6 500iu ED 50 mg am 50 pm clomid
week 6-8 500 iu hcg ed 50 mg clomid am and 12.5 letro ed

then back On

GreenEarth · Jun 16, 2013

I used to always hear people advise again HcG use in PCT simply because they claimed it was suppressive.

His blasting (5000ius at a time) would make me a little worried just to the aromatization of HcG, but as Kaladryn said, many people have used the protocol with success.

Kaladryn · Jun 16, 2013

Aikman56 said:
So do you think this type of protocol has merit, as opposed to "traditional"PCT that we were discussing in the other thread?

No, it has no merit, HCG further shuts you down, it's simple biochemistry. Why are people shut down? Answer: pituitary not producing enough GNRH. Why? Because high estradiol is down regulating GNRH. GNRH stimulates LH, so we take HCG to mimic LH and stimulate testosterone, which aromatizes to E2 and leads to lower GNRH levels? It makes no sense.

The broscience is that somehow your balls "forgot" how to make testosterone and by blasting them with HCG (which is essentially LH) they will "remember." Great theory but the HPGA doesn't work like this.

flipper2012 · Jun 16, 2013

What I believe he MIGHT do, because I dont think he comes off is blast hcg for a few months. Its not coming off completely but ive known folks that do this.

MAS81 · Jun 17, 2013

Kaladryn said:
This is what everyone did in the 80s and 90s, HCG was blasted 5000iu for 2-3 shots usually, sometimes there was some kind taper involved, but doses usually started in the 5k range. I believe this protocol originated in the medical community.

It isn't broscience that HCG causes leydig cell desensitization, there is a lot of research on this subject. In fact, HCG is frequently used to CAUSE leydig desensitization in many studies.

Something interesting I came across, could HCG be lowering your HDL?

Serum lipoproteins increase testosterone production in hCG-desensitized Leydig cells. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

So if someone took 8-10 weeks off between cycles would you reccommend that person stay off clomid and anastrozole as well? Completely clean from all research chems and anabolics for 8-10 weeks?

Stewie · Jun 17, 2013

Same question on two different boards. Same answer by two different internet well known physicians.

Taking Over 250 UI of hcg a day can cause testicular cells to die ?

Taking Over 250 UI of hcg a day can cause testicular cells to die ?

Knight9 · Jun 17, 2013

IMO, Rich's idea of coming off is prob 1g of test.

bbg420 · Jun 17, 2013

Knight9 said:
Primarily, I always emphasize leydig cell desensitization is a REAL thing. Though hrt doctors who dont know any better still prescribe hcg and arimidex over aromasin. More money in their pockets...and a sign of them not evolving.

I also think it doesnt make sense to shut yourself down while on...and continually stimulate or jump start your balls(leydig cells). Who cares about testicular size really as long as things work correctly.

Hcg also has a host of sides that are possible including estrogen conversion.

Hcg would be better used post cycle...but not at the large dosages Rich suggests imo...like Kaladryn said, thats outdated practice.

Triptorelin seems to be the real way to go when wanting to restore natural levels as highly as possible. But many on here would probably need trt if they monitored how well they truly recovered.

Note...in 2006 I ran 250iu hcg 2x a week on cycle(test e 500mg) and it didnt make any difference in recovering by my estimation. Had I ran a more suppressive compound along with it, it may have been a better application.