EAA & BCAA

[richiec]

I know there has been a lot of talk on here about EAA and BCAA.

I know that some guys have replaced their shakes with EAA in the past in the form of Humapro and what not.

My question is this:
Would there be any benefit to not use shakes and to supplement with a mix of BCAA and EAA throughout the day? Take it in between meals, during workout, after workout. Say like 5-10g of each per time?

 

[Cerberus777]

I eat 4 meals a day. I take 5g eaa 20ish min before meals. This has worked better than 5 meals with same macros for me.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Dante Trudel suggested this. I don't remember verbatim, but it was something like 3-4x/day of EAAs. I wanna say it was 15g per drink?

I know he believes in it. I know it's a decent concept. Personally, I mix up 20-30g EAAs in a half gallon on days that I'm sore. I'll put it next to my bed and drink it between getting up to pee and going back to sleep. I'd imagine this would work well daytime too.


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[Knight9]

There is absolutely validation in these methods...I agree with Dave/Dante and Cerberus's findings sound spot on.

I would opt for EAA throughout the day and BCAA during the workout...although EAA during the workout would suit you just fine as well.

It can lead to less gas, bloating, waste(shit), and leave you less full where you can eat your whole foods meal more comfortably.

 

[flexdurden]

Layne Norton did this in some studies... In between meals the BCAAs spike protein synthesis but also let it fall fast enough to allow for another spike when you at your next meal. The research also showed that keeping sustained high blood amino acid levels actually blunts the protein synthetic response. What is needed for the protein synthetic response is a rise in blood amino acid levels.

It should also be noted that for for BCAAs to elicit a protein synthetic response their needs to be a complete spectrum of amino acids present. So if you take them on an empty stomach you won't derive as much benefit as you would if you had a small serving of protein beforehand or ate a meal a couple of hours prior.

 

[tay]

BCAA throughout the day


EAAs.. INTRA

 

[tri-terror]

I think that this could be key the last part of a prep when calories start to get really low and/or you are doing a fuck ton of cardio.

I'm gonna be honest here though, I'm still really hung up on why one vs the other is any better. BCAA where the old standby but now a lot of guys choose eaa's?

 

[richiec]

Fantastic replies from well respected members. Knight, Mentalfelx and Dave thank you for chiming in on this. Not disregarding what others have said, but I know MF and Dave have worked along side of Scott and Dante and have been able to pick their brains and I look up to those 2. Knight has direct work with the EAA both retail and application wise.

Tri-terror, I don't want to "choose" eaa over bcaa per se, rather utilize both for maximizing results. Just wanting an idea to what route might be more beneficial.

Dave, I like the concept of putting in 20-30g of eaa in water and drinking throughout the day. I carry a gallon of water with me at work and that could be good for me to do. I may go that route and have 20g bcaa intra.

Am contemplating using 1 shake a day on workout days and that being post. Do you all think this beneficial or overkill?

 

[flexdurden]

Fantastic replies from well respected members. Knight, Mentalfelx and Dave thank you for chiming in on this. Not disregarding what others have said, but I know MF and Dave have worked along side of Scott and Dante and have been able to pick their brains and I look up to those 2. Knight has direct work with the EAA both retail and application wise.

Tri-terror, I don't want to "choose" eaa over bcaa per se, rather utilize both for maximizing results. Just wanting an idea to what route might be more beneficial.

Dave, I like the concept of putting in 20-30g of eaa in water and drinking throughout the day. I carry a gallon of water with me at work and that could be good for me to do. I may go that route and have 20g bcaa intra.

Am contemplating using 1 shake a day on workout days and that being post. Do you all think this beneficial or overkill?

Something along the lines of sipping EAA THROUGHOUT the day... although in theory this seems AWESOME...BUT in actuality, as I noted regarding Layne Norton's work, without the rise and fall of blood amino acid levels, your protein synthetic response will be suppressed. Ideally, what you will do is wait about 2-3 hours (give or take a little depending on how much and what you ate) and then have your amino acid drink. Then eat a whole food meal in an hour or two. The amino acid spike from the amino acid drink will have fallen and you will be able to take advantage on the protein synthetic response from the meal.

Hopefully that makes sense... what I am saying is that you actually DON'T want constant peaked blood amino acid levels when it comes to inducing a protein synthetic response.

As far as using 1 shake per day PWO, that seems like a viable option considering you use a fast digesting protein powder to facilitate recovery after training.

EDIT: And Tri-Terror, EAAs are becoming more popularized because more research is being down and it is being found that when all the EAAs are present their is a synergysitc effect and all EAAs together can induce a greater insulugenic response as compared to single EAAs, including the BCAAs or any combo not comprising of all EAAs. Scott Stevenson has some articles on the Mountain Dog website on this

 

[richiec]

Something along the lines of sipping EAA THROUGHOUT the day... although in theory this seems AWESOME...BUT in actuality, as I noted regarding Layne Norton's work, without the rise and fall of blood amino acid levels, your protein synthetic response will be suppressed. Ideally, what you will do is wait about 2-3 hours (give or take a little depending on how much and what you ate) and then have your amino acid drink. Then eat a whole food meal in an hour or two. The amino acid spike from the amino acid drink will have fallen and you will be able to take advantage on the protein synthetic response from the meal.

Hopefully that makes sense... what I am saying is that you actually DON'T want constant peaked blood amino acid levels when it comes to inducing a protein synthetic response.

As far as using 1 shake per day PWO, that seems like a viable option considering you use a fast digesting protein powder to facilitate recovery after training.

MF, thank you for not only your response, but the in depth response!
It definitely does make sense that one doesn't want to suppress ones protein synthetic response. My eating schedule currently looks like this:
8am - breakfast (2 whole eggs 3 egg whites)
11:30/12 - lunch (chicken breast, almonds, fruit)
3:30/4 - mid day meal (same as above)
Workout - Gatorade with 15-20g bcaa
6/6:30 - pwo shake (shake + fruit)
7:30 - dinner (depends, but protein and carbs)

Would you recommend a serving of say 5g eaa in between each of these meals, about the halfway point?

 

[flexdurden]

MF, thank you for not only your response, but the in depth response!
It definitely does make sense that one doesn't want to suppress ones protein synthetic response. My eating schedule currently looks like this:
8am - breakfast (2 whole eggs 3 egg whites)
11:30/12 - lunch (chicken breast, almonds, fruit)
3:30/4 - mid day meal (same as above)
Workout - Gatorade with 15-20g bcaa
6/6:30 - pwo shake (shake + fruit)
7:30 - dinner (depends, but protein and carbs)

Would you recommend a serving of say 5g eaa in between each of these meals, about the halfway point?

Well this study uses 10g EAAs to induce the protein synthetic response and EAAs are not all that expensive: Mammalian target of rapamycin complex 1 activation is... [J Nutr. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

If you can't I would do 10g EAA and MAYBE, add a little extra leucine for good measure lol I'm one of those guys who likes to cover all my bases.

 

[warlock]

Well this study uses 10g EAAs to induce the protein synthetic response and EAAs are not all that expensive: Mammalian target of rapamycin complex 1 activation is... [J Nutr. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

If you can't I would do 10g EAA and MAYBE, add a little extra leucine for good measure lol I'm one of those guys who likes to cover all my bases.

Are you saying that having 10g EAA in between meals would be ideal? But not so much if you already eat an average of 30-50 gr of protein per meal 6-7 times a day?

 

[flexdurden]

Are you saying that having 10g EAA in between meals would be ideal? But not so much if you already eat an average of 30-50 gr of protein per meal 6-7 times a day?

Layne's studies used I believe 3 or 4 meals spaced more widely apart. Consuming meals more frequently with higher amounts of protein would leave amino acids in circulation for up to 5 hours (although the concentration ma be low). In this case, it would not be beneficial to have the 10g EAA burst between meals because it would not allow time for amino acid levels to fall.

Once again, in bodybuilding, there is no one size fits all approach. The answer is always, "it depends"

 

[Cerberus777]

Layne Norton did this in some studies... In between meals the BCAAs spike protein synthesis but also let it fall fast enough to allow for another spike when you at your next meal. The research also showed that keeping sustained high blood amino acid levels actually blunts the protein synthetic response. What is needed for the protein synthetic response is a rise in blood amino acid levels.

It should also be noted that for for BCAAs to elicit a protein synthetic response their needs to be a complete spectrum of amino acids present. So if you take them on an empty stomach you won't derive as much benefit as you would if you had a small serving of protein beforehand or ate a meal a couple of hours prior.

Most of what lead me to try this was from what Norton suggest 20-30 min will spike and drop before your meal leading the body to want more.

 

[Cerberus777]

Layne's studies used I believe 3 or 4 meals spaced more widely apart. Consuming meals more frequently with higher amounts of protein would leave amino acids in circulation for up to 5 hours (although the concentration ma be low). In this case, it would not be beneficial to have the 10g EAA burst between meals because it would not allow time for amino acid levels to fall.

Once again, in bodybuilding, there is no one size fits all approach. The answer is always, "it depends"

If I remember right its meals every 4.5-5 if you're not carb sensitive a small amount of quick carbs and EAA before a meal. You are correct that steady stream of aminos can turn off protein synthesis.

We do need to cavort that studies are done without AAS. And protein turn over is faster with anabloics , but I still find it works well assisted.

 

[pasamoto]

Touching on what the above poster said, you have to remeber that layme's studies were done on naturals, not enhanced. I can't remeber where but u read a study that showed enhanced athletes did better with constant amino acid levels instead of the pulse. For what it's worth I've tried a mixture of 10g EAA/10g luecine/10g glutamine 10-15 min prior to meals. 3x per day. No. Whey shakes. There was a very obvious recomp effect. Fairly expensive and unpractical tho.

 

[flexdurden]

Touching on what the above poster said, you have to remeber that layme's studies were done on naturals, not enhanced. I can't remeber where but u read a study that showed enhanced athletes did better with constant amino acid levels instead of the pulse. For what it's worth I've tried a mixture of 10g EAA/10g luecine/10g glutamine 10-15 min prior to meals. 3x per day. No. Whey shakes. There was a very obvious recomp effect. Fairly expensive and unpractical tho.

Can you try to find that study? I would be really interested in it...

 

[Lando]

I know there has been a lot of talk on here about EAA and BCAA.

I know that some guys have replaced their shakes with EAA in the past in the form of Humapro and what not.

My question is this:
Would there be any benefit to not use shakes and to supplement with a mix of BCAA and EAA throughout the day? Take it in between meals, during workout, after workout. Say like 5-10g of each per time?

Eaa's make me want to throw up with their taste.

 

[ToroPharmaRep]

Scott Stevenson did an awesome write up on this on Mountaindog's website. I took BCAA's over EAA's ignorantly for cost reasons, and to my utter surprise they are pretty evenly priced. I put 3 scoops of EAA's in my gallon and sip on it between meals, and Peptopro or EAA's Intra.

 

[richiec]

Eaa's make me want to throw up with their taste.

This was an extremely helpful and insightful post, thank you