Hematocrit dropped 12 points in 6 weeks

[Mike Arnold]

I have something interesting to report here, but first, allow me to provide a little background information.

* I have been on AAS for 3 year straight (aside from a single 6 week off period over a year ago), with doses ranging from as low as 250 mg of testosterone weekly to about 1.5 grams of total AAS/week.

* I have gotten bloodwork multiples time during this 3 year period, averaging 2-3X yearly.

* My hematocrit has always been on the high side--always over 50 and as high as 58. One one occasion it was in the normal range when eating 1 grap-efruit daily, but my dosage of AAS was on the lower side during this time, with none of the traditionally more offenseive compounds included in my cycle.





In July on 2014, I had my hematocrit tested, which came in at 55. I was using 500 mg test and 150 mg Tren/week.

In August I decided to add in some orals for a boost in the gym. So, I began using 50 mg Anandrol/day, 20 mg Halotestin/day, and 30 mg Anavar/day, which is unusual for me, as I rarely ever dose orals this high. But, I wanted to get my strength back up as quickly as possible.

About 6 weeks later, in September, I was forced to go to the doctors due to a staph infection I had in my foot. While there they wanted to do bloodowork, which included a complete review of my liver, kidney, and cardiovascular health markers, among others.

When the bloodwork results came in, it showed that my hematocrit had falken to 46.

Understandably I was a bit stumped, as traditionally, whenever I have used Anadrol, even at just 50 mg/day, my hematocrit was always in the mid-50's after about 1 month of use. So, to be using test, tren, Anadrol, Halo, and Var...and see my hematocrit fall significantly without any explanation, well, I wanted to know why.

I began to think of what I had been doing differently during this time compared to previous bloodowork readings under similar circumstances and I realized that I had been using a product which contained the following ingredients:


Milk thistle (80% silymarin): 1,000 mg/day
NAC: 800 mg/day
Hawthorne (1.8% extract): 600 mg/day
Saw palmetto (45% extract): 400 mg/day
CoQ10: 200 mg/day
Celery Seed (6.1 concentrate): 150 mg/day
Grapeseed (95% extract): 150 mg/day


I began using this product the day I aded the orals into my cycle. Being pretty familiar with the majority of these compounds I started looking into some of those I was not quite as familair with.

After looking at 4 different studies done in rats/mice, it appeared as though grapeseed extract works as a modulator of various hematological markers, with some doses leading to an increase in RBC, hematocrit, and platelets, and othes leading to a decrease. Obviously, this doesn't tell us at what dose these effects might be present in humans, if at all, but given the results of my bloodwork, I am now interested in learning more about this subject.




By the way, if anyone is interesting in my ALT & AST readings while using Anadrol, Halo, and Var, here they are:

Alt: 35 (reference range 5-40)
Ast- 43 (reference range 5-40)


Even when using test, tren, Anadrol, Halotestin, and Anavar for 6 weeks, my ALT is still in a normal range and my AST is only very slightly elevated. These are great results and further confirmation that several of the compounds listed above are excellent liver protectants.


If anyone has anything to add regarding research they may have done on grapeseed extract and its effects on hematogical markers, or any comments in general, feel free to contribute.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Error in Thread Title


The title should have been ""Hematocrit dropped 9 points in 6 weeks". ​

 

[jaymac]

What product is this?
Thanks

 

[Mike Arnold]

What product is this?
Thanks

I intentionally didn't list the product, as I am not sure if it is against the rules to do so in this forum, even though the company that sells it is a sponsor here. Besides, the point wasn't what the product was, but the possible effects of grapeseed extract on hematocrit.

Being that they're a sponsor, I will post the product name, but if it is not allowed the mods can just delete it. Advanced Cyucle Support by IML. In order to get the dosage listed above, it requires 4 caps/day, which would be one bottle per month.

 

[oldDIRTYbastard]

I don't have anything to add but I'm very interested in threads like this. Thanks Mike

 

[sluggy]

I'm on some real doses of MegaNatural-BP (patented grape seed extract) and while it may help keep my hematocrit down (maybe?), I don't think it would have a silver bullet effect to drop it so significantly.

 

[Archer]

There's a bunch of cycle supports/assists on the market, all with pretty much the same ingredients.

Just had blood work done today in fact and my cholesterol is up a bit from last time, so Im definately interested in lowering it without meds, although both my parents are on medication for high cholesterol, and my mother is all about walking and vegetables and whole foods etc, so I'm sure it's hereditary.

 

[Stewie]

I'll let by gones' be by gones'. Just hear me out

So you are aware pathogens such as staphylococcus must steal iron from their hosts to establish an infection. Durning this pathophysiologcal process depending on the duration and severity of staph. Iron deficiency usually is a consequence. Thus a drop in HH. This is independent of one's iron stores.

Any physician will tell you this.

 

[Cerberus777]

Stewie beat me to it. My wife tends to have high normal RBC and krit levels from constant working out and hiking in an higher altitude. Nor does she have heavy periods.

She got MRSA and was anemic for the first time in her life. Dr said the staph wad robbing her of iron rapidly.

 

[Knight9]

I intentionally didn't list the product, as I am not sure if it is against the rules to do so in this forum, even though the company that sells it is a sponsor here. Besides, the point wasn't what the product was, but the possible effects of grapeseed extract on hematocrit.

Being that they're a sponsor, I will post the product name, but if it is not allowed the mods can just delete it. Advanced Cyucle Support by IML. In order to get the dosage listed above, it requires 4 caps/day, which would be one bottle per month.

I respect you immensely bro. I hope you know that. You do work for IML right? That is not to say you are not possibly onto something though!

 

[jaymac]

I know this is off topic but I can't seem to use a product with saw palmetto in it. I've used it for prostate support but it seems to make my symptoms worse.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I'll let by gones' be by gones'. Just hear me out

So you are aware pathogens such as staphylococcus must steal iron from their hosts to establish an infection. Durning this pathophysiologcal process depending on the duration and severity of staph. Iron deficiency usually is a consequence. Thus a drop in HH. This is independent of one's iron stores.

Any physician will tell you this.

Let me clarify a few things first. Although I said it was "staph" infection, it actually wasn't. It was "like" a staph infection in terms of symptoms (there are many things which can resemble staph but aren't), but the doctors did not know what it was. They did every test they could think of and never found out what it was....and I saw 3 different doctors. This is why all treatment for it failed, including the time I saw a doctor 1 month after I got it. It just went away on its own after about 8 months. When I saw a doctor at 6.5 months in (which is the time I mentioned in my OP), he prescribed me a type of silver coated wound lining, which seemed to help acceleate the healing process. That was all they did, which was enough to make it finally go away, although it would have went away on its own anyway--it just sped up the final healing process.

Aside from that. Consider the following. I had bloodwork done in July--6 months after having the infection...or whatever it was. 6 weeks later my HH had dropped 9 points, even though I started using Anandrol, halo, and Var...and the infection was almost gone by then anyway.

So, if it was the infection that caused the drop in HH, why didn't it have any effect the first 6.5 months I had it (I had bloodwork done in May as well, at which time I also had the infection and my hematocrit was elevated then to), when the infection was at its worst?

The 9 point drop in hematocrit occured literally within 6 weeks, after starting the orals. When the infection was at its worst, it had no effect on hematocrit. So, for 6.5 months there is no effect, but then at 6.5 months, when the infection is almost gine and I start a bunch of orals, it goes down 9 points?

Have you seen any of the studies done on grapeseed extract and its effects on hematocrit? In rats/mice it has had a profound effect. I have not been able to find any studies done on humans with grapseed extract where hematocrit was tested, but I just started looking so...

Note: Although I said 'staph infection", it actually wasn;t a stpah infection. the doictoirs did not know what it was, which is why treatment for it failed the first toime I saw a doctor abotu it about a month after I had it.nthe doctoirs actuall

 

[Mike Arnold]

I respect you immensely bro. I hope you know that. You do work for IML right? That is not to say you are not possibly onto something though!

Yes...and everyone already knows that, which is why I did not mention the product until asked. The purpose of the thread was to talk about any effect that grapeseed may have on hematocrit, given the study results available, not an IML product. People can buy grapesede from anywhere.

 

[thebrick]

Are we talking grape seed extract or grapefruit seed extract?

 

[SexWeightsShakes]

i take something some what similar but doesnt have grape extract in it

Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Red Yeast Rice 600mg **
N Acetyl Cysteine 600mg **
Silymarin (Milk Thistle Extract) 500mg **
Hawthorn Berry 500mg **
Saw Palmetto 150mg **
Nettle Root 125mg **
Celery Seed Extract 75mg **
Idebenone 50mg **
Policosanol 10mg **

hemocrit 48.5
ast 46
alt 58

noticed i didnt get nearly as many bloody noses using this stuff also

 

[Mike Arnold]

Are we talking grape seed extract or grapefruit seed extract?

Grape

 

[Mike Arnold]

I'll let by gones' be by gones'. Just hear me out

So you are aware pathogens such as staphylococcus must steal iron from their hosts to establish an infection. Durning this pathophysiologcal process depending on the duration and severity of staph. Iron deficiency usually is a consequence. Thus a drop in HH. This is independent of one's iron stores.

Any physician will tell you this.

I understand your concern, which is why I am going to get bloodowork again next month. I just started back on orals (Anadrol 50 mg/day, Var 30 mg/day) about 11 days ago. I am also using 500 Test/week, and 500 Deca/week, so by the end of next month it will be about 6 weeks on orals again...and it would be several months since the wound/infection went away.

I should also mention that my HH levels have NEVER been below the mid-50's when using test & Anandrol, so with several other AAS added into the mix, it would be extremely unlikely for my hematocrit to remain within the normal range--especially a 46.

Lastly, studies on grapeseed extract show significant reductions in HH in animals, and my HH remained unaffected the entire time I had the wound/infection (until the final 6 weeks when I bagn using grapseeed), so automatically discounting the possibility of grapseed being a deciding factor probably isn't a good idea.

 

[Stewie]

Don't some ULG's use grape seed oil as a carrier?

I know you are speaking of the extract form. It's of the same botanical.

Theoretically, if we was to figure volume of oil:extract concentration as a ratio, I would suspect the total mg of GS oil supersedes that of extract over a duration of a cycle.

With that, I would believe there would of been recognition by now if there had been an influence on reduction of one's HH. Or so I'd believe.

Just bringing discussion to the table.

 

[Archer]

Just thinking the same as I home brew with GSO....hopefully it helps lol

 

[Mike Arnold]

Don't some ULG's use grape seed oil as a carrier?

I know you are speaking of the extract form. It's of the same botanical.

Theoretically, if we was to figure volume of oil:extract concentration as a ratio, I would suspect the total mg of GS oil supersedes that of extract over a duration of a cycle.

With that, I would believe there would of been recognition by now if there had been an influence on reduction of one's HH. Or so I'd believe.

Just bringing discussion to the table.

No, they are not the same thing, but I will get back later, as I need to leave the house for a bit.

Also, not sure if you saw me ask in the last couple posts, but have you read any of the studies on grapeseed extract and its effects in HH in animals?