Possible alternative to spinal fusion surgery?

[Cobraman]

To preface, I have had back pain for years. Have not been on any pain meds for it, just dealt w/ it. Have done tons of stretching and core exercise for it to keep it at bay. My diagnosis? I have generalized mild to moderate spinal stenosis and moderate to severe degenerative disc disease at L5-S1. Since September I have noticed weakness in my right leg that has progressively been getting worse. I have avoided surgery due to the poor success rate it has. Also, once fusion is done, it increases the stress above and below the fusion which can cause one to have a need to have other surgeries with the same or worse prognosis.

Last month, my pain and dysfunction had gotten to the point where I was starting to consider lumbar fusion. I had started scouting out possible surgeons, looking for the most conservative ones I could find. I was asking people that I knew had fusion for their opinions.

A couple of weeks ago, a new study came out regarding the use of stem cells from your fat or bone marrow to treat arthritis or degenerative discs. The study was very favorable and encouraging. Since the medical community and back pain sufferers have been waiting for something like this I was sure that I could find someone w/in a few hours drive to treat me.

I am now scheduled for my consult in April and will post on the progress once I have it done. They say it takes aprox 3 months to see results because the stem cells need to multiply.

The receptionist I spoke to said they are getting amazing results.

 

[Floxedone]

I did stem cell for connective tissue disorder, it was Good, helped a lot. Fat based that is.

One of the hallmarks of disc/connective tissue degeneration is an overabundance of disc eating enzymes called MMPs.

MMPs can be increased by inflamation or drugs, or disease. there are many suplements that can balance/reduce the degeneration caused by MMPs.

Curcumin
Grape seed extract
Alpha lipoic Acid

On top of that bromealin, Glucosamine and Chondroitin, can all help to cause more cells and ECM production in the discs.

These should slow down or stop any MMP related degeneration, lower inflammation, and help to strengthen weakened discs.

Both tendonds and Discs have cells that repond to pressure/mechanical load by stimulating cell production and ECM. Most doctors believe that nothing can fix a disc once it bulges/ruptures, but ALL these treatments and stem cell should help to strengthen the discs that remain.

Pain, and lack of movement could come from the disc becoming inflamed and pushing in on, or pinching the nerves.

LED light therapy, Red/Infra-red has shown good promise in treating disc inflammation.

Expression and regulation of metalloproteinases and their inhibitors in intervertebral disc aging and degeneration.

CONCLUSIONS:

"Upregulation of MMP and ADAMTS expression and enzymatic activity is implicated in disc ECM destruction, leading to the development of IDD. Future IDD therapeutics depends on identifying specific MMPs and ADAMTSs whose dysregulation result in pathological proteolysis of disc ECM."

Expression and regulation of metalloproteinases and their inhibitor... - PubMed - NCBI


So to answer your question, IF you can lower MMPS, stop the degeneration, and be pain free enough, and IF you have enough stability and movement with your bulging disc THEN that would be an alternative.

 

[Floxedone]

Here are some of the studies. Anyone with a bad back, history of tendon pain/ruptures should know this info.

EDIT!--Some stem cell places do INTRA-NASAL injections, BE CAREFUL as Intra-nasal injections can cause permanent blindness in both eye by blocking the blood flow to the optic nerves. In your case the nasal injections are not needed.

RESULTS:

Upregulation of specific MMPs (MMP-1, -2, -3, -7, -8, -10, and -13) and ADAMTS (ADAMTS-1, -4, and -15) were reported in human degenerated IVDs

Expression and regulation of metalloproteinases and their inhibitor... - PubMed - NCBI

Supplements that lower/balance MMPs!

Curcumin!
Anti-inflammatory effect of curcumin involves downregulation of MMP-9 in blood mononuclear cells.
Anti-inflammatory effect of curcumin involves downregulation of MMP... - PubMed - NCBI

Oral administration of curcumin suppresses production of matrix metalloproteinase (MMP)-1 and MMP-3 to ameliorate collagen-induced arthritis: inhibition of the PKCdelta/JNK/c-Jun pathway.
Oral administration of curcumin suppresses production of matrix met... - PubMed - NCBI

Alpha Lipoic Acid

The effects of alpha-lipoic acid on MMP-2 and MMP-9 activities in a rat renal ischemia and re-perfusion model.

"We conclude that in this cell culture model, LA treatment inhibits cancer metastasis, and this inhibition is likely due to the decrease in the activity and mRNA expression levels of MMP-2 and MMP-9 caused by LA."

alpha-Lipoic acid reduces matrix metalloproteinase activity in MDA-... - PubMed - NCBI

Grape seed Extract

Grape seed extract suppresses lipopolysaccharide-induced matrix metalloproteinase (MMP) secretion by macrophages and inhibits human MMP-1 and -9 activities.

Grape seed extract suppresses lipopolysaccharide-induced matrix met... - PubMed - NCBI

Quercitin!

Quercetin downregulates matrix metalloproteinases 2 and 9 proteins expression in prostate cancer cells (PC-3)
Quercetin downregulates matrix metalloproteinases 2 and 9 proteins ... - PubMed - NCBI

 

[ThinkTank]

To preface, I have had back pain for years. Have not been on any pain meds for it, just dealt w/ it. Have done tons of stretching and core exercise for it to keep it at bay. My diagnosis? I have generalized mild to moderate spinal stenosis and moderate to severe degenerative disc disease at L5-S1. Since September I have noticed weakness in my right leg that has progressively been getting worse. I have avoided surgery due to the poor success rate it has. Also, once fusion is done, it increases the stress above and below the fusion which can cause one to have a need to have other surgeries with the same or worse prognosis.

Last month, my pain and dysfunction had gotten to the point where I was starting to consider lumbar fusion. I had started scouting out possible surgeons, looking for the most conservative ones I could find. I was asking people that I knew had fusion for their opinions.

A couple of weeks ago, a new study came out regarding the use of stem cells from your fat or bone marrow to treat arthritis or degenerative discs. The study was very favorable and encouraging. Since the medical community and back pain sufferers have been waiting for something like this I was sure that I could find someone w/in a few hours drive to treat me.

I am now scheduled for my consult in April and will post on the progress once I have it done. They say it takes aprox 3 months to see results because the stem cells need to multiply.

The receptionist I spoke to said they are getting amazing results.

Please update this thread with your experiences both seeking the treatment and your results. Many of us, myself included, are in the same boat. If not, at least shoot me a PM and we can keep in touch via email.

I managed to avoid surgery by modifying my lifting style, bending style, and most importantly - correcting some of my flexibility limitations in my hamstrings.

 

[Cobraman]

Here are some of the studies. Anyone with a bad back, history of tendon pain/ruptures should know this info.

EDIT!--Some stem cell places do INTRA-NASAL injections, BE CAREFUL as Intra-nasal injections can cause permanent blindness in both eye by blocking the blood flow to the optic nerves. In your case the nasal injections are not needed.

RESULTS:

Upregulation of specific MMPs (MMP-1, -2, -3, -7, -8, -10, and -13) and ADAMTS (ADAMTS-1, -4, and -15) were reported in human degenerated IVDs

Expression and regulation of metalloproteinases and their inhibitor... - PubMed - NCBI

Supplements that lower/balance MMPs!

Curcumin!
Anti-inflammatory effect of curcumin involves downregulation of MMP-9 in blood mononuclear cells.
Anti-inflammatory effect of curcumin involves downregulation of MMP... - PubMed - NCBI

Oral administration of curcumin suppresses production of matrix metalloproteinase (MMP)-1 and MMP-3 to ameliorate collagen-induced arthritis: inhibition of the PKCdelta/JNK/c-Jun pathway.
Oral administration of curcumin suppresses production of matrix met... - PubMed - NCBI

Alpha Lipoic Acid

The effects of alpha-lipoic acid on MMP-2 and MMP-9 activities in a rat renal ischemia and re-perfusion model.

"We conclude that in this cell culture model, LA treatment inhibits cancer metastasis, and this inhibition is likely due to the decrease in the activity and mRNA expression levels of MMP-2 and MMP-9 caused by LA."

alpha-Lipoic acid reduces matrix metalloproteinase activity in MDA-... - PubMed - NCBI

Grape seed Extract

Grape seed extract suppresses lipopolysaccharide-induced matrix metalloproteinase (MMP) secretion by macrophages and inhibits human MMP-1 and -9 activities.

Grape seed extract suppresses lipopolysaccharide-induced matrix met... - PubMed - NCBI

Quercitin!

Quercetin downregulates matrix metalloproteinases 2 and 9 proteins expression in prostate cancer cells (PC-3)
Quercetin downregulates matrix metalloproteinases 2 and 9 proteins ... - PubMed - NCBI

Thanks for the information.

 

[Cobraman]

Please update this thread with your experiences both seeking the treatment and your results. Many of us, myself included, are in the same boat. If not, at least shoot me a PM and we can keep in touch via email.

I managed to avoid surgery by modifying my lifting style, bending style, and most importantly - correcting some of my flexibility limitations in my hamstrings.

Have done all that myself, but still am declining, albeit slowly. I will update thread as I go.

 

[LEX]

First of all what is your diagnosis that you were given?

 

[Cobraman]

I am also having surgery to fix sleep apnea. I believe my lack of sleep is also contributing to my condition by the lack of healing that sleep apnea creates.

I will be undergoing a new procedure that raises the oral pharynx while sparing the uvula. I am also having a deviated septum corrected and having the nasal turbinate bones adjusted to increase the air flow. This will be done on May 1. Will update this as well.

 

[Floxedone]

I am also having surgery to fix sleep apnea. I believe my lack of sleep is also contributing to my condition by the lack of healing that sleep apnea creates.

I will be undergoing a new procedure that raises the oral pharynx while sparing the uvula. I am also having a deviated septum corrected and having the nasal turbinate bones adjusted to increase the air flow. This will be done on May 1. Will update this as well.

I did the setpolasty with partial turbinectomy and after 2 years developed empty nose syndrome, an inability to feel air in the nose correctly.

bionase | eBay

Vielight 633 Red - Mediclights Research Inc

If I could do it again I would NOT DO turbinectomy, and hold off on septoplasty.

I would start by using an INTRA-nasal led light device that cuts down on nasal inflammation and heals the nose.

If you do do the surgery please look up empty nose sydnrome, and consider doing just the septoplasty.

MOST of the airflow sensing comes from the inferior turbinates, there are SOME "sub-mucosal resection" that lowers turbinate size while maintaining mucosal area, but snading reduction removes the mucosa contains specialized cell and nerves that single the brain you are breathing.

 

[kubes]

Have you done any pt. I had an injury to l5s1 back in 2010 it hurt so bad I could Barley walk and to get out of bed and put my feet on the ground seemed like my spine was broken. I got an MRI and it showed severe degeneration to that segment l5s1. The MRI showed 2 mm of spec left at that level. 7 different surgeons told me that spinal fusion was inevitable. Finally I was in so much pain I found the best surgeon around and went in and saw him. Told him to preform the surgery that I was throwing in the towel. He told me that it looked real bad and he could do the procedure but he thought I should wait and do pt first. So I did. I did the Mckenzie method every hour for months. It worked and I avoided having tot do he procedure

 

[dragonfire101]

how old are you? whats diagnosis? how many surgical consults have you had?


and regards of sleep apnea are you using GH, TEST AAS etc. If you get the surgery you may find yourself in same situation in several years. My doctor wont even perform surgery for my sleep apnea unless I lower my Test dosage

 

[NoVaDriver]

What's the procedure called? I have a similar condition to you, although my stenosis is not advanced yet. I was floating the river south of Austin and a drunk dickhead fell on top of me from a rope swing. Fucker fled the scene without saying a word. I'm in constant pain from it and squats and deads are on the no-no list. Ugh.

You getting this done in Houston?

To preface, I have had back pain for years. Have not been on any pain meds for it, just dealt w/ it. Have done tons of stretching and core exercise for it to keep it at bay. My diagnosis? I have generalized mild to moderate spinal stenosis and moderate to severe degenerative disc disease at L5-S1. Since September I have noticed weakness in my right leg that has progressively been getting worse. I have avoided surgery due to the poor success rate it has. Also, once fusion is done, it increases the stress above and below the fusion which can cause one to have a need to have other surgeries with the same or worse prognosis.

Last month, my pain and dysfunction had gotten to the point where I was starting to consider lumbar fusion. I had started scouting out possible surgeons, looking for the most conservative ones I could find. I was asking people that I knew had fusion for their opinions.

A couple of weeks ago, a new study came out regarding the use of stem cells from your fat or bone marrow to treat arthritis or degenerative discs. The study was very favorable and encouraging. Since the medical community and back pain sufferers have been waiting for something like this I was sure that I could find someone w/in a few hours drive to treat me.

I am now scheduled for my consult in April and will post on the progress once I have it done. They say it takes aprox 3 months to see results because the stem cells need to multiply.

The receptionist I spoke to said they are getting amazing results.

 

[Cobraman]

how old are you? whats diagnosis? how many surgical consults have you had?


and regards of sleep apnea are you using GH, TEST AAS etc. If you get the surgery you may find yourself in same situation in several years. My doctor wont even perform surgery for my sleep apnea unless I lower my Test dosage

I am 49 years old. Mild to moderate obstructive sleep apnea. Only had the one surgical consult. My test dosage is relatively low and is provided by my MD. Unable to tolerate cpap or dental snore guard. Thanks for the info. I will discuss these things at my preop appt.

 

[Cobraman]

What's the procedure called? I have a similar condition to you, although my stenosis is not advanced yet. I was floating the river south of Austin and a drunk dickhead fell on top of me from a rope swing. Fucker fled the scene without saying a word. I'm in constant pain from it and squats and deads are on the no-no list. Ugh.

You getting this done in Houston?

Procedure is called Adipose graft transfer. And no, I am not having it done in Houston. Having it done in Indiana.

 

[Cobraman]

I did the setpolasty with partial turbinectomy and after 2 years developed empty nose syndrome, an inability to feel air in the nose correctly.

bionase | eBay

Vielight 633 Red - Mediclights Research Inc

If I could do it again I would NOT DO turbinectomy, and hold off on septoplasty.

I would start by using an INTRA-nasal led light device that cuts down on nasal inflammation and heals the nose.

If you do do the surgery please look up empty nose sydnrome, and consider doing just the septoplasty.

MOST of the airflow sensing comes from the inferior turbinates, there are SOME "sub-mucosal resection" that lowers turbinate size while maintaining mucosal area, but snading reduction removes the mucosa contains specialized cell and nerves that single the brain you are breathing.

Thanks for the heads up. I will discuss this at my preop appt.

 

[Cobraman]

Have you done any pt. I had an injury to l5s1 back in 2010 it hurt so bad I could Barley walk and to get out of bed and put my feet on the ground seemed like my spine was broken. I got an MRI and it showed severe degeneration to that segment l5s1. The MRI showed 2 mm of spec left at that level. 7 different surgeons told me that spinal fusion was inevitable. Finally I was in so much pain I found the best surgeon around and went in and saw him. Told him to preform the surgery that I was throwing in the towel. He told me that it looked real bad and he could do the procedure but he thought I should wait and do pt first. So I did. I did the Mckenzie method every hour for months. It worked and I avoided having tot do he procedure

I can only do McKenzie exercises in a limited way because of the spinal stenosis. Arching the back to that degree causes greater impingement of the nerves. The pt I have done concentrated more on strengthening the core. I continue to do these.

 

[LEX]

I can only do McKenzie exercises in a limited way because of the spinal stenosis. Arching the back to that degree causes greater impingement of the nerves. The pt I have done concentrated more on strengthening the core. I continue to do these.

if you have stenosis stems cells aren't gonna cut it bro. Where is the stenosis?

 

[chinaboy]

Spinal traction and spinal cord stimulators are both alternatives to surgery. But if you are loosing strength than surgery may be necessary to rescue the compressed nerve.

 

[ThinkTank]

I am 49 years old. Mild to moderate obstructive sleep apnea. Only had the one surgical consult. My test dosage is relatively low and is provided by my MD. Unable to tolerate cpap or dental snore guard. Thanks for the info. I will discuss these things at my preop appt.

What about the cpap makes it intolerable? Is it the mask? If so, I highly suggest trying the Pilairo Q nasal pillow.

I use a CPAP, however my apnea is also mild. Sleep doctor wants to put me on Klonapin becasue he thinks I have narcolepsy. I am not down for that at all and think his diagnosis is way off.

My biggest issue is my sinuses. I had a deviated septum procedure. IIRC, it was traditional and balloon Septoplasty. Made a huge fucking difference in my life.

That being said; I still suffer from sinus pain during the winter months. I no longer get any sinus infections and I can breath through my nostrils (mouth breather before procedure).

FWIW, overall with my sinus procedure and CPAP....My sleep quality has improved. Although I still wake several times during the night, it seems like I get a more restful cycle of sleep.

 

[Skorpion100]

Spinal traction and spinal cord stimulators are both alternatives to surgery. But if you are loosing strength than surgery may be necessary to rescue the compressed nerve.

These are the two best options available that many doctors will perform if you prefer to delay the surgery. If the spinal cord stimulator works, then it will be permanently fused into the body by most likely a pain management doctor who has had experience doing those. Spinal traction can be done at any physical rehab or chiropractor place. If you have a bulging disk that is compressing the nerve, then action must be taken. Best bet for that is a microdisectomy which leaves just a little 1-2inch scar on the place where the neurosurgeon performs it.

If your MRI shows very bad degenerative damage and stenosis, then a spinal fusion will be your last bet if the traction and stimulators dont help with the pain. Might as well get it done now while you have the best chance at rehabilitation instead of when you are older. I've seen a few people who have had fusions done at a younger age and they are able to get around and move just fine once they finish rehab. Rehab is key when getting the fusion done.

btw, if your doctor wants you to try some pain meds for it, try it out. I know people talk about the horrors of pain meds, but when they are used correctly and not abused (abusing by snorting them, taking them more than prescribed, taking recreational) then they can be a god send for people who have debilitating/almost crippling pain like you do.