Current trends regarding T3/T4 use

[ModestMuscle1]

What is the current trend with the pros on T3/T4 use?

Is it used year round at varying dosages based on goals or only during cutting/pre contest?

Is a combination of both T3/T4 preferred to T3 or T4 alone?
Is it preferred to only use T4 if also running GH/peps?

What are typical dosages?

I have read so much conflicting advice on this subject.
Thank you for any input.

 

[little slice]

never again

 

[AzCats]

I tried t4 @ 300mcgs PD for almost 5 weeks and it did absolutely nothing. From what I have read, If your body already has enough T3, the T4 will not convert into more T3 no matter how much you take. I can't get T3 where I'm at so i figured why not give T4 a shot. 5 weeks @ 300mcgs then tossed it in the garbage. I guess if your T3 is low to begin with it might help, but mine was in normal range to begin with. Just my experience.

 

[grizzly978]

I've been on T3 for about 4 months at 50mcg a day , using test alongside it to keep muscle. And although at first it did make me flat as a pancake, the fat loss that came from it enhanced everything. I think in terms of being a big freak sized guy tho, keep the dose low because I lost some muscle even at 50......

 

[Knight9]

Use t4 if on gh or peps.

 

[Kaladryn]

Thyroid burns too much muscle and it's not necessary IMO, I will never use it for contest prep again.

I see very little, if any at all, reduction in thyroid levels from using GH.

I personally don't think thyroid is commonly used anymore at the higher level, but I'm not that much in the know.

 

[vintagemuscle]

My thyroid levels definitely tested low while on gh so in my case I would use a low dose t4 or t3.

 

[Knight9]

My thyroid levels definitely tested low while on gh so in my case I would use a low dose t4 or t3.

t4 makes GH more anabolic according to Dave Kalick.

 

[heavyhitter]

And what does Dave kalik base this on?

 

[Knight9]

According to Dave Kalick

Realize that these are notes transcribed from podcasts...so they're not exactly written perfectly..


(notes from yesterday's podcast)
T4 is really meant for off season.
Tsh levels diminish when you take GH...and makes your own t3 level go up.
T4 has to be present to have translation into t3...to make gh more anabolic so there is more IGF acknowledgement through the deiodinase enzyme - you want to have t4 present at this time.

T4 can carry over to pre contest, but you want to add T3 to the existing T4.


Back in the 80's T4 was used a lot too....(t3 wasn't really used and suddenly changed at some point)-this according to Skip Hill.




(notes from podcast a couple months ago)
GH...the deal with t3...what's more important in the off-season is t4. When you take t4, your hypothalamus and pituitary
gland is seeing TSH dissipating. When that dissipated, your conversion from t4 to t3 goes down as well. This conversion
makes GH anabolic. The conversion from t4 to t3 is what makes GH anabolic. If your body sees an elevation of synthetic t3,
then there is less t4. You need the conversion of t4. T3 with GH people are fucking themselves over.
Use t3 pre contest.
100mcg t4 is going to convert into 25mcg t3...getting the indirect route.
T3 triggers IGF mrna in muscle tissue...but not taking it directly. We want to take t4 to get conversion to t3.
When tsh diminishes, t3 has to go up. You get the loss of transcription from t4(the anabolic action). The conversion
makes it anabolic (the t3 after its converted is what activates the IGF and mrna in the muscle tissue)
More specifically with the CJC...yes to t4
If you are using GH, use t4. If pre contest, use t3 layered on top of it(already existing t4).
levothyroxine...some need 50mcg t4..some need 100.
Not everyone uses t3 pre contest.
T4...has to be taken on a completely empty stomach. Take t4 upon waking OR when you're pissing in the middle of the
night. 30 min prior to food on an empty stomach.

 

[Rex Feral]

Duchaine was the first to mention the role of T4 in anabolism. I started using T4 in the off season around 1988 and have used it ever since. Every pro I knew then used it. It's true T3 did become more popular in the 90s for whatever reason. I have always believed in off season T4 use whether on GH or not and still do. T3 should be reserved pre-contest for certain individuals and in addition to T4. AAS & T by themselves lead to a relative impairment in thyroid function within the normal range. Dose can be somewhat individualized and can vary notoriously between name brand and generics. Not to mention research chems. You are by far best off using Synthroid. It is really one of the only medications where brand vs generic actually matters. Suffice to say if you used 300 mcg qd for many weeks with no effect as someone mentioned then you were obviously not using T4 of any decent quality.

Abstract

Self-administration of very high doses of androgenic anabolic steroids is common use in power athletes because of their favorable effect on performance. Since androgenic steroids decrease serum T4-binding globulin (TBG) concentrations dramatically, we were interested in the effects of this procedure on thyroid function: we performed TRH tests (200 micrograms Relefact, i.v.), with blood withdrawal before and for 180 min after injection, for determination, using RIA kits, of serum concentrations of total and free T4, total T3, TSH, and TBG in 13 young (20-29 yr old) male body builders with clinically normal thyroid glands, who were all in the same state of training. Five of these athletes admitted taking androgenic anabolic steroids at an average total dose of 1.2 g/week for at least 6 weeks before the tests. TBG, total T4, and total T3 were significantly (P < 0.001) decreased, whereas basal TSH and free T4 were not significantly different from the values of the other 8 without androgenic steroids. The maximum TSH increase after TRH administration (mean +/- SE, 16 -/+ 6 vs. 9 -/+ 4 mU/L; P < 0.05) was relatively increased, whereas the T3 response to TRH (0.61 -/+ 0.10 vs. 1.13 -/+ 0.13 nmol/L; P < 0.05) was relatively decreased in the group receiving androgens. The 5 patients taking androgens had significantly greater weight (114 vs. 90 kg; P < 0.01) and higher total cholesterol levels (6.3 -/+ 1.3 vs. 3.8 -/+ 0.3 mmol/L; P < 0.05) together with very low high density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (0.20 -/+ 0.03 vs. 1.03 -/+ 0.10; P < 0.001) than the controls. PRL levels were normal and similar in both groups. We conclude from our results that high dose androgenic anabolic steroid administration leads to a relative impairment (within the normal range) of thyroid function. Whether this is due to a direct thyroid hormone release (or synthesis?)-blocking effect of these steroids needs further investigation.

 

[SANDMAN1986]

Duchaine was the first to mention the role of T4 in anabolism. I started using T4 in the off season around 1988 and have used it ever since. Every pro I knew then used it. It's true T3 did become more popular in the 90s for whatever reason. I have always believed in off season T4 use whether on GH or not and still do. T3 should be reserved pre-contest for certain individuals and in addition to T4. AAS & T by themselves lead to a relative impairment in thyroid function within the normal range. Dose can be somewhat individualized and can vary notoriously between name brand and generics. Not to mention research chems. You are by far best off using Synthroid. It is really one of the only medications where brand vs generic actually matters. Suffice to say if you used 300 mcg qd for many weeks with no effect as someone mentioned then you were obviously not using T4 of any decent quality.

Abstract

Self-administration of very high doses of androgenic anabolic steroids is common use in power athletes because of their favorable effect on performance. Since androgenic steroids decrease serum T4-binding globulin (TBG) concentrations dramatically, we were interested in the effects of this procedure on thyroid function: we performed TRH tests (200 micrograms Relefact, i.v.), with blood withdrawal before and for 180 min after injection, for determination, using RIA kits, of serum concentrations of total and free T4, total T3, TSH, and TBG in 13 young (20-29 yr old) male body builders with clinically normal thyroid glands, who were all in the same state of training. Five of these athletes admitted taking androgenic anabolic steroids at an average total dose of 1.2 g/week for at least 6 weeks before the tests. TBG, total T4, and total T3 were significantly (P < 0.001) decreased, whereas basal TSH and free T4 were not significantly different from the values of the other 8 without androgenic steroids. The maximum TSH increase after TRH administration (mean +/- SE, 16 -/+ 6 vs. 9 -/+ 4 mU/L; P < 0.05) was relatively increased, whereas the T3 response to TRH (0.61 -/+ 0.10 vs. 1.13 -/+ 0.13 nmol/L; P < 0.05) was relatively decreased in the group receiving androgens. The 5 patients taking androgens had significantly greater weight (114 vs. 90 kg; P < 0.01) and higher total cholesterol levels (6.3 -/+ 1.3 vs. 3.8 -/+ 0.3 mmol/L; P < 0.05) together with very low high density lipoprotein cholesterol levels (0.20 -/+ 0.03 vs. 1.03 -/+ 0.10; P < 0.001) than the controls. PRL levels were normal and similar in both groups. We conclude from our results that high dose androgenic anabolic steroid administration leads to a relative impairment (within the normal range) of thyroid function. Whether this is due to a direct thyroid hormone release (or synthesis?)-blocking effect of these steroids needs further investigation.

this is some good info

 

[hotrod]

Several things to remember , T4 is about 1/10th as thermogenic as T3. Even though you take relative high doses of T4 does not mean it will convert T3. You actually need T3 to build muscle,it is needed for protein synthesis.
All that being said too much T3 especially when not using PED's will indeed cause muscle loss, and to some degree even with use depending on how low your trying to go on body fat.
I having a low thyroid basically all my life,I stay on T3/T4 year round. I try and with anyone I used to train keep there free T3 in the upper 75% range while dieting. If it falls a little less in off season it's not much of a problem.
Some guys and girls simply take a certain dose prescribed by well meaning people and never know where they are w/o any added T3/T4.
I know blood tests are expensive and it takes several to figure optimal dosing,the second best method and in 90 plus percent of the time very accurate is the thermometer test.
Upon waking and before you even get out of bed take your temp,optimal should be about 97.8 to 98.2. This test should be done for seven to ten days in a row to get average, and should be done before you start any thermogenic compounds( ephedra,clen,etc) Of course as you start Gh anabolics it could change and by then most people are in full diet mode with lots of caffeine etc,which makes it hard to know if your getting the right amount of T3/T4 or is it the other thermogenics causing the heat rise.
But rest assured if your thyroid levels are off it makes it very hard to get to low body fat levels and especially in those hard to loose areas.

 

[Kaladryn]

so much bs in this thread

 

[ManoftheWorld]

If your a heavy tren user or have long history of use it wouldnt hurt to have labs done for general health. There has been evidence of tren knocking on your tsh and thyroid function so a good time to supplement t3/t4 could be with tren.. dosing is something one would have to figure out on own but i can argue this since my many years of tren fun i would bet now caused my low levels and being borderline hypothyroid... i dont have hypo in family history so no other possible reason that has left me only a few points in range so i now do a low dose Rx for maintenance therapy to add a few more points for a little better numbers

 

[RamboStallone]

so much bs in this thread

What are your thoughts on this brother? I know in the past you said use a combination of both which seems very logically but I'm interested in the reasoning why?

 

[gordo14]

bump

Very interested in opinions. Doc said I was borderline hypo and only prescribed 50mcg of t4

 

[epoxy]

For me it burns too much muscle unless I'm on a LOT of AAS (100mg/ED tren minimum). I lost about 25lbs total on my cut with that combination, dropped the tren and kept on the 50mcg of T3 for another 2-3 weeks afterwards on 300MG of test and I literally lost another 10 lbs while overeating and I know a lot of it was muscle because I started getting MUCH weaker in the gym. Additionally I started having some bad sides after being on for a few months. Going to keep it to a minimum in the future, and probably only going to use pharm grade in the future as well to ensure the correct potency. I think mine was also overdosed (I usually tend to think things to be underdosed) but yeah. Fuck muscle loss. I'd rather use DNP than T3 now.

 

[hotrod]

A lot of people do take thyroid when its really not necessary. If you have good thyroid levels then my advice is to stay away until it is below optimum. And that doesn't go by what the doctors say, if you are at the bottom of there charts they say your good,not so.
When your younger they are so many things going on even if your a Little low, your body will burn more calories than someone who is older. As you get older your body stops using hormones as well,not just thyroid but all hormones( I'm not counting the really genetically gifted). Like test when you start taking thyroid meds it takes longer and longer for your body to rebound and produce itself. And eventually it wont at all or be sub normal.
As far as thyroid lowering when on GH, there is a lot of studies that prove it does,of course that doesn't mean everyone will.
Clen is another that has shown to lower thyroid after and during use.more food for thought.

 

[ArnoldSwollenPecker]

All thermogenics will lower your T3.