How dangerous is elevated hematocrit really?

[Gizmo]

When you read across the forums a hematocrit over 54 is outrageously high and a serious risk of stroke or heart attack comes along with it according to the responses. Is it high? It is above the normal range yes. One thing I find very confusing is that the average male living in Denver has a higher hematocrit than that (55), yet the heart disease rate in Denver is not higher and is actually lower than average in the US. Keep in mind, this is not like the people who live in the Andes who over a lot of generations have a slightly different genetic makeup that gives them an advantage versus "normal" people living at that elevation. The people in Denver are like you and me. So how dangerous is an elevated hematocrit assuming you don't have a clotting disorder? Is the combination of AAS and elevated hematocrit another increased risk? Just something I've been thinking about

 

[Kendrxck]

Mines 50 as of last week after being off everything for two months. Unfortunately I don't have much knowledge on this subject. Interested to see what people say.

Time for me to donate blood! Should lower it.

 

[MooseKnuckles]

Mine has been a constant 53-54 for many years never really goes below 53, and has been as high as 59.

 

[warlock]

High hematocrit is very risky and not something to play with. A simple phlebotomy or blood donation will help. Sometimes more will be needed if hematocrit is too high, but it's a simple step to take and will have you at ease.

You want to keep it under 50.

 

[MooseKnuckles]

High hematocrit is very risky and not something to play with. A simple phlebotomy or blood donation will help. Sometimes more will be needed if hematocrit is too high, but it's a simple step to take and will have you at ease.

You want to keep it under 50.

That's what I do is a get a phlebotomy every 3 months

 

[Flex500]

This subject is a tough one and not black and white. Yes having excessively high crit will put you at greater risk for heart attack and stroke but as always it's important to look at the entire health picture of the individual.

For instance if you have a 5'9" 210 pound male at 8% BF whose bloodwork is great, blood pressure is great, blood glucose is great and all around are a very healthy and fit individual with no major cardiovascular risk factors and their crit goes from 47 to 52 on a mild cycle I honestly wouldn't be that worried.

The worry comes with crit (well the major worry) is that so many are not in that situation. Let's look at a whole lot of people....5'9" 250 lbs and 15% BF. Jacked up lipid profile, high blood pressure, on 2grams+ of gear and fasting blood glucose very high. Crit jumps from mid 40's to mid 50's. In this case you are adding one risk factor to all the others.

Oftentimes when I've delt with people with high crit they have a whole lot of other shit going on and the crit is one more in the risk factor column that can be avoided.

There is no need for healthy individuals with normal bp and bloodwork and literally no risk factors to crap their pants because their rises a bit. This is why it's so important to look at the entire health picture of the individual.

 

[Geardepot]

This subject is a tough one and not black and white. Yes having excessively high crit will put you at greater risk for heart attack and stroke but as always it's important to look at the entire health picture of the individual.

For instance if you have a 5'9" 210 pound male at 8% BF whose bloodwork is great, blood pressure is great, blood glucose is great and all around are a very healthy and fit individual with no major cardiovascular risk factors and their crit goes from 47 to 52 on a mild cycle I honestly wouldn't be that worried.

The worry comes with crit (well the major worry) is that so many are not in that situation. Let's look at a whole lot of people....5'9" 250 lbs and 15% BF. Jacked up lipid profile, high blood pressure, on 2grams+ of gear and fasting blood glucose very high. Crit jumps from mid 40's to mid 50's. In this case you are adding one risk factor to all the others.

Oftentimes when I've delt with people with high crit they have a whole lot of other shit going on and the crit is one more in the risk factor column that can be avoided.

There is no need for healthy individuals with normal bp and bloodwork and literally no risk factors to crap their pants because their rises a bit. This is why it's so important to look at the entire health picture of the individual.

Good info here.

we used to play around with EPO and some other drugs that raise the crit. I had a few guys ordering EPO from us for several years. As flex said, if you have other levels that are out of whack BP, lots of gear, etc and your crit is high, then you prob have something to worry about, but if its only the high crit level then your prob fine.

This is an interesting topic. I love reading about the cyclist who know how to manipulate their levels back and forth for racing/testing. for some reason its fascinating to me. being in this line of work for so long, I have seen a trend with anything that offer performance enhancement. bbers and cyclist are the first to adopt the drugs, then about 5-10 years later it will trickle down to other sports like track/field, traditional sports like football and baseball. The bbers and cyclist are the ones on the forefront of this always!

If your ever really worried about your crit levels you can buy a centrifuge and drama little blood and spin it to get an instant read out. Thats overkill for most guys, but its an option if your worried and your doing things to stimulate your levels a lot.

g

 

[kscowboy]

There are only a few things that Dante preaches and preaches about and one of them is the importance of keeping your crit in check.


Look at it like this. Your heart is like any other pump in the world. It has an intake and it has an outlet. The inlet, is supposed to have a certain "Viscosity" or thickness that it needs to stay under to operate at optimal capacity and to get the product (In this case, blood) out the outlet. If a pump that is designed to pump water is submerged in an oil tank, it will have to work exponentially harder to pump the oil than the water its designed to pump. It doesn't take very long to burn up that pump because the viscosity of the oil is "X" amount of times thicker than the viscosity of water. Same principal applies to the heart. Its made to pump blood with a certain viscosity and once we thicken the blood, its only a matter of time before that pump burns out.

 

[Gizmo]

There are only a few things that Dante preaches and preaches about and one of them is the importance of keeping your crit in check.


Look at it like this. Your heart is like any other pump in the world. It has an intake and it has an outlet. The inlet, is supposed to have a certain "Viscosity" or thickness that it needs to stay under to operate at optimal capacity and to get the product (In this case, blood) out the outlet. If a pump that is designed to pump water is submerged in an oil tank, it will have to work exponentially harder to pump the oil than the water its designed to pump. It doesn't take very long to burn up that pump because the viscosity of the oil is "X" amount of times thicker than the viscosity of water. Same principal applies to the heart. Its made to pump blood with a certain viscosity and once we thicken the blood, its only a matter of time before that pump burns out.

Yes, I get all that, but if this holds true, then why don't we see rampant heart disease in the Denver area?

 

[nothuman]

When you read across the forums a hematocrit over 54 is outrageously high and a serious risk of stroke or heart attack comes along with it according to the responses. Is it high? It is above the normal range yes. One thing I find very confusing is that the average male living in Denver has a higher hematocrit than that (55), yet the heart disease rate in Denver is not higher and is actually lower than average in the US. Keep in mind, this is not like the people who live in the Andes who over a lot of generations have a slightly different genetic makeup that gives them an advantage versus "normal" people living at that elevation. The people in Denver are like you and me. So how dangerous is an elevated hematocrit assuming you don't have a clotting disorder? Is the combination of AAS and elevated hematocrit another increased risk? Just something I've been thinking about

Stewie actually explained something to me the other day in regards to people living in higher altitudes having higher hematocrits. Something along the lines of their hematocrits are higher but it's not considered as dangerous since their body is adjusted to it so they can get away with a slightly higher number.

Sometimes there seems to be a misconception on this board, because when someone posts they have a hematocrit over 50, the replies would make it sound like the sky is falling and they were a ticking time bomb without donating blood. The reality appears that you can get away with a much higher number and be fine, however it's much better safe than sorry (so donate/phlebotomy is a wise move).

The problem is when you donate too much, you run the risk of having a very low ferritin level, like in my case. I depleted my ferritin so much, that I got all the symptoms of low iron and now I'm in a situation where my ferritin is on the low range of normal but I'm dealing with a hematocrit in the 52-53 range. I would normally donate blood in this instance but I don't want to crash my ferritin again. As long as my hematocrit stays at this number and doesn't elevate, I should be fine. There are people who have hematocrits above 60 and don't get blood clots, strokes, or heart attacks (however they definitely need to do something about that).

 

[Ashop]

Your much more prone to a stroke or even heart attack if it's too high for too long. It can effect your BP and the way all your organs function. Its definitely something to keep an eye on and treat if you have an issue.

 

[nothuman]

This subject is a tough one and not black and white. Yes having excessively high crit will put you at greater risk for heart attack and stroke but as always it's important to look at the entire health picture of the individual.

For instance if you have a 5'9" 210 pound male at 8% BF whose bloodwork is great, blood pressure is great, blood glucose is great and all around are a very healthy and fit individual with no major cardiovascular risk factors and their crit goes from 47 to 52 on a mild cycle I honestly wouldn't be that worried.

The worry comes with crit (well the major worry) is that so many are not in that situation. Let's look at a whole lot of people....5'9" 250 lbs and 15% BF. Jacked up lipid profile, high blood pressure, on 2grams+ of gear and fasting blood glucose very high. Crit jumps from mid 40's to mid 50's. In this case you are adding one risk factor to all the others.

Oftentimes when I've delt with people with high crit they have a whole lot of other shit going on and the crit is one more in the risk factor column that can be avoided.

There is no need for healthy individuals with normal bp and bloodwork and literally no risk factors to crap their pants because their rises a bit. This is why it's so important to look at the entire health picture of the individual.

Exactly. In my case, for instance, my crit is 52-53 but my bp yesterday was 108/58 and my resting HR was 65. Those doesn't really seem like "he's in danger of a heart attack" numbers (also got an echocardiogram where everything looked fine). Therefore, it's not worth crushing my ferritin levels again which I foolishly did last time. This is a blood test everyone needs to ask for when they check their RBC's.

 

[Flex500]

Exactly. In my case, for instance, my crit is 52-53 but my bp yesterday was 108/58 and my resting HR was 65. Those doesn't really seem like "he's in danger of a heart attack" numbers (also got an echocardiogram where everything looked fine). Therefore, it's not worth crushing my ferritin levels again which I foolishly did last time. This is a blood test everyone needs to ask for when they check their RBC's.

BINGO! You are a perfect example. So many steroid users have a mountain of risk factors they are stuggling to control so why let your crit go sky high when you can donate.

You are the opposite. I'm im similar shoes. Mine has always ran high. I've never seen mind below 48 and is usually around 49-51 on or off gear. All my other risk factors are very low and that is a normal crit for me so I don't need to freak out.

I like that people are concerned but we all tend to freak out about single numbers when it's vitally important to look at the entire health picture of he individual and these various health marker numbers over time.

 

[Kaladryn]

Great thread and some really good responses above. My crit ranges from 50 to 55 (usually it is 53 or less) and I do not feel the need to donate. In fact I feel that regular donations have a "rebound" effect in my case and end up putting me even higher than before.

I have read anecdotal reports that pro cyclists (perhaps the most PED using sport in the world) consider anything under 60 as "safe" but I can't backup this info.

 

[sub7percent]

I just went to donate blood, when I got there the measured my hct first using a finger prick test and it was 49. My thoughts are, because I am in a state where it is a pain in the ass to get regular bloodwork, does anyone every buy home test kits like this? I see they are also available for cholesterol and thyroid hormone.

 

[nothuman]

Great thread and some really good responses above. My crit ranges from 50 to 55 (usually it is 53 or less) and I do not feel the need to donate. In fact I feel that regular donations have a "rebound" effect in my case and end up putting me even higher than before.

I have read anecdotal reports that pro cyclists (perhaps the most PED using sport in the world) consider anything under 60 as "safe" but I can't backup this info.

x2 on the rebound. Whenever I donate, my crit just rises right back up shortly after, but my ferritin is slower to rise.

 

[nothuman]

I just went to donate blood, when I got there the measured my hct first using a finger prick test and it was 49. My thoughts are, because I am in a state where it is a pain in the ass to get regular bloodwork, does anyone every buy home test kits like this? I see they are also available for cholesterol and thyroid hormone.

I've gone to donate, and when they did the finger prick for me and my hematocrit wasn't too high, I snuck out. I would love a home test kit like this. I didn't even know you could get them.

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

Stewie actually explained something to me the other day in regards to people living in higher altitudes having higher hematocrits. Something along the lines of their hematocrits are higher but it's not considered as dangerous since their body is adjusted to it so they can get away with a slightly higher number.

Sometimes there seems to be a misconception on this board, because when someone posts they have a hematocrit over 50, the replies would make it sound like the sky is falling and they were a ticking time bomb without donating blood. The reality appears that you can get away with a much higher number and be fine, however it's much better safe than sorry (so donate/phlebotomy is a wise move).

The problem is when you donate too much, you run the risk of having a very low ferritin level, like in my case. I depleted my ferritin so much, that I got all the symptoms of low iron and now I'm in a situation where my ferritin is on the low range of normal but I'm dealing with a hematocrit in the 52-53 range. I would normally donate blood in this instance but I don't want to crash my ferritin again. As long as my hematocrit stays at this number and doesn't elevate, I should be fine. There are people who have hematocrits above 60 and don't get blood clots, strokes, or heart attacks (however they definitely need to do something about that).

I agree and i dont know where that came from because the range is usually 42-52 <----and thats IN RANGE! Yet i see people say time and time again when someones hematocrit is 50 or 51 "bro you need to do something about that fast!!!" Really? Who told you that and where does that panic come from? I believe the cleveland clinics range is 43-54 if i remember right. You usually see me comment on hematocrit and hemoglobin threads when i see 56-63 hematocrit and 19 plus hemoglobin....and there have been guys posting on this very board in the past with 58 to 63 plus hematocrits and 20-21 hemoglobins,,,,,thats where in my opinion you are really playing russian roullette if you get dehydrated with a hematocrit that high.

If anyone wanted my opinion i would say this

43-52 your pretty much fine (there has been literature showing lower hematocrits among multi thousands of people have shown a longer life...ill try to find that....but still if someone is running a little on the high side but still in range 49-53ish on the sauce....its my opinion your pretty much fine.

54-57 I would do something about it...id give blood...mainly because alot of TRT doctors their shutoff on hematocrit for TRT is 55...so if someone was that high i think you need to do some maintenance to keep it lower if possible

58 up to 63....this is the area alot of guys in their 30's who are full bore on cycle are in and they dont know it because they dont test during these cycles...they only test after their cycles....but if your 58-63 i would really do something about it pronto. I remember Maldorf being at 21 hemoglobin and 63 hematocrit on anabolic minds and he had that heart attack a short time later....all those 37 cyclists that died that used EPO had hematocrits up near/over 60 plus and they ended up dying in their sleep

but yea i dont know how this "oh my god bro your at 49..go give blood immediately" bullcrap came about....seems like alot of parrotting

IN RANGE is IN RANGE

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

There you go right there

55%..so if your running 55 or nearing it or over...its time to do something about it...but lets stop with the "oh no bro your at 48 go give blood" crap

Blood Count

 

[Stewie]

Exactly. In my case, for instance, my crit is 52-53 but my bp yesterday was 108/58 and my resting HR was 65. Those doesn't really seem like "he's in danger of a heart attack" numbers (also got an echocardiogram where everything looked fine). Therefore, it's not worth crushing my ferritin levels again which I foolishly did last time. This is a blood test everyone needs to ask for when they check their RBC's.

There's clinical literature indicating iron deficiency with or without anemia ups the risk for stroke, or thrombosis. The mechanism behind this is due to iron deficiency may initiate platelet generation and aggression, thus making platelets more "sticky".


As for hematocrit. I personally believe it's an agitator, not an initiator?

High hematocrit as a risk factor for venous thrombosis. Cause or innocent bystander?