PCT unsuccessful then mini PCT - bloods included. Feedback needed

[JayDub302]

Hey guys I'm new to professional muscle but I've been a member of eroids for five years and a few other forums. I'm 28 y/o, 5'11, 240, 19%BF, I have experience w AAS for the past 4 years or so, been researching for about 10 years though, and I've been lifting since I was 14.
Anyways, I ran a 16 week cycle from April - July. I was running:

600 mgs Test E/week for weeks 1-16
Proviron 50 mgs a day weeks 1-8
Masteron 350 mgs/week for weeks 9-16
HCG 500 IUs E3D weeks 9-16
Tren ace 250 mgs/week for weeks 12-15
Aromasin 10 mgs a day weeks 12-16

Then I stopped everything and 2 weeks after last test E pin I ran a 5 week PCT:

Clomid 150 100 100 50 50
Nolva 20 20 20
Aromasin 10 10 5
No HCG since using it on cycle.
I was advised to keep nolva lower and for shorter length of time BC it being suppressive. Well I got bloods done the week after this PCT and my LH and FSH were in the lower normal range, but my test was 196. I stayed off everything for 4 weeks and then did a mini PCT. It was only 2 weeks.

2,500 IUs HCG day 1, 1000IUs HCG day 5 and 1,000 IUs day 10,
20 mgs nolva for 14 days
Clomid at 150 for first 3 days, 100 next 4 days, and 50 last 7 days.

Got bloods done at the last day of the first PCT and my test was 169. Got bloods done again last day of the mini PCT and test was 676 (ironically 4 times higher or a 400% increase in only 6 weeks). I used the same nolva and clomid both times, I just added HCG and tons of vitamins and minerals and liver support to the mini PCT and trained less. I listen to my body now and don't push myself when exhausted.

Here are the bloods from mid September:



And here are the bloods from 10/25:




I am happy about the test increase but I am not happy that my LH and FSH went down. I think the clomid I ran was not very effective. I know it was early to run bloods, but since I did both the last day of PCT and used the same PCT drugs both times, something changed to make my test 4 times higher (maybe the HCG but seems extreme for just 5,000 IUs of HCG). Let me know what you guys think I should do from here. I plan to wait 6-8 weeks and check bloods again to see where I really am without the PCT drugs (unless something else is recommended like running some more powerful nolva). Thanks again everyone!


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[Swifto]

Intersting.

Did you have BW prior to this cycle, where was total T and/or baseline values?

You have symptoms of low testosterone now?

I'd wait it out now, stop all ancillaries and androgens and see where you are in 8 weeks time.

 

[bigmills]

Intersting.

Did you have BW prior to this cycle, where was total T and/or baseline values?

You have symptoms of low testosterone now?

I'd wait it out now, stop all ancillaries and androgens and see where you are in 8 weeks time.

Yoj I don't know if you know this or not but Swift is one of the most knowledgeable if not the most knowledgeable person around when it comes to PCT I have read article after article written by him and he definitely knows his shit. so listen to whatever he has to tell you bro..

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[JeanClaude]

I don't think you understand how these compounds work. Nolva is not suppressive and works best in conjunction with clomid. Cutting the Nolva short didn't make sense.

Hcg will shut ur own production of LH FSH. Ur testosterone elevation was a result of hcg acting on the LH receptors of ur testes.

So in stimulating ur balls to work u shut down ur pituitary production of LH/Fsh, that's why the levels went down.

Ur LH/FSH levels after ur first run of pct were really good which meant u were recovering. Test levels take time to increase. The mini pct u tried with hcg put a wrench in things with ur pituitary.

I would suggest waiting 8-12 weeks to get bloods as ur system has to jumpstart itself and slowly begin producing its own. It takes time but that's probably not what u want to hear.


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[Swifto]

Yoj I don't know if you know this or not but Swift is one of the most knowledgeable if not the most knowledgeable person around when it comes to PCT I have read article after article written by him and he definitely knows his shit. so listen to whatever he has to tell you bro..


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I appreciate the kind words. But I'm not in agreement with other knowledgable figures when it comes to PCT sometimes.

I don't think you understand how these compounds work. Nolva is not suppressive and works best in conjunction with clomid. Cutting the Nolva short didn't make sense.

Hcg will shut ur own production of LH FSH. Ur testosterone elevation was a result of hcg acting on the LH receptors of ur testes.

So in stimulating ur balls to work u shut down ur pituitary production of LH/Fsh, that's why the levels went down.

Ur LH/FSH levels after ur first run of pct were really good which meant u were recovering. Test levels take time to increase. The mini pct u tried with hcg put a wrench in things with ur pituitary.

I would suggest waiting 8-12 weeks to get bloods as ur system has to jumpstart itself and slowly begin producing its own. It takes time but that's probably not what u want to hear.


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Not LH receptors, but leydig cells in his testes actually.

 

[RamboStallone]

The reason the second labs show higher test and lower LH and FSH because you injected HCG lol. That test level is from the HCG not your natural production. No offense bro, but 10 years of research my ass. [emoji57]

 

[JayDub302]

The reason the second labs show higher test and lower LH and FSH because you injected HCG lol. That test level is from the HCG not your natural production. No offense bro, but 10 years of research my ass. [emoji57]

Did you read what I wrote? HCG is the only thing I changed but I didn't think ten days of 5,000 IUs of HCG could quadruple my test levels. I know it's obviously artificially high, and I'm off all ancillaries and will check my levels again in another 8 weeks.... I also changed my diet, workout routine, amount of sleep, vitamin/supplement regimen and lifestyle. I know I messed up and this is the first time I've had this problem. Asking for advice, not sarcasm and criticism "bro".... lol


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[JayDub302]

Intersting.



Did you have BW prior to this cycle, where was total T and/or baseline values?



You have symptoms of low testosterone now?



I'd wait it out now, stop all ancillaries and androgens and see where you are in 8 weeks time.

Thanks a lot man. I will take your advice. I am off everything and will check again in 8 weeks. Normal test levels are usually around 7-800. I know this type of thing takes time. I am by no means saying I am out of the woods. I just wanted to know what to do from here but I have my answer. Thanks again!


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[Swifto]

Thanks a lot man. I will take your advice. I am off everything and will check again in 8 weeks. Normal test levels are usually around 7-800. I know this type of thing takes time. I am by no means saying I am out of the woods. I just wanted to know what to do from here but I have my answer. Thanks again!


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The HCG has no doubt increased your endogenous Test levels, thats why you now have high total T and lower LH and FSH. The artificial increase in endogenous Test might also be causing inhibition, which is why your LH and FSH are suppressed - but it might also be due to not recovering totally.

Next time you do a PCT using SERMs taper the dosage. So for example, Tamoxifen (Nolvedex) for 40mg week 1, 20mg week 2-5, week 5-6 10mg every day. You could also introduce a low dosage of an AI to stop the suppressive nature of higher estrogen levels if your Test correctly climbs.

 

[RamboStallone]

Did you read what I wrote? HCG is the only thing I changed but I didn't think ten days of 5,000 IUs of HCG could quadruple my test levels. I know it's obviously artificially high, and I'm off all ancillaries and will check my levels again in another 8 weeks.... I also changed my diet, workout routine, amount of sleep, vitamin/supplement regimen and lifestyle. I know I messed up and this is the first time I've had this problem. Asking for advice, not sarcasm and criticism "bro".... lol


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Sorry didn't mean to be an ass. HCG is a hormone brother, meaning you were still using hormones. To recover you have to get off all of this shit, the number after taking HCG is useless since it doesn't depict your body's own function, it depicts HCGs function. That's why I made that remark, 10 years of research, 4 years using, and you don't know the simple mechanism of HCG?

My honest opinion is, skip the whole PCT bullshit. There is no such thing. While you are on drugs, you are still on drugs and your body is relying on them whether it's a cycle or "PCT" (which is just an extended cycle using different drugs). Your "PCT" is only prolonging your recovery.

I got a buddy who is either on cycle or on PCT, then back on cycle. He's basically on drugs the entire time. It's funny when he tells me how great the PCT is cuz he never crashes lol, well you never technically came off! Come off and you'll crash. As long as you are still using hormones, you are not off.

 

[JayDub302]

I appreciate the kind words. But I'm not in agreement with other knowledgable figures when it comes to PCT sometimes.









Not LH receptors, but leydig cells in his testes actually.

Hey Swifto. I really appreciate your feedback. Do you think you can do me a favor and clear some of your inbox so that I can ask you a question? I really appreciate it bro. Thanks again.....


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[tenny]

Sorry didn't mean to be an ass. HCG is a hormone brother, meaning you were still using hormones. To recover you have to get off all of this shit, the number after taking HCG is useless since it doesn't depict your body's own function, it depicts HCGs function. That's why I made that remark, 10 years of research, 4 years using, and you don't know the simple mechanism of HCG?

My honest opinion is, skip the whole PCT bullshit. There is no such thing. While you are on drugs, you are still on drugs and your body is relying on them whether it's a cycle or "PCT" (which is just an extended cycle using different drugs). Your "PCT" is only prolonging your recovery.

I got a buddy who is either on cycle or on PCT, then back on cycle. He's basically on drugs the entire time. It's funny when he tells me how great the PCT is cuz he never crashes lol, well you never technically came off! Come off and you'll crash. As long as you are still using hormones, you are not off.

depending on the length of cycle...(more than 6 weeks)...

yes PCT is useless......TIME is the only thing that will help...
add time with a good tapper and some natural test boosters
is the best thing you can do.....the old "hcg novla clomid" thing is
USELESS...it only prolongs your recovery....

its like putting a bandaid.....over a bandaid

 

[bigmills]

Hey Swifto. I really appreciate your feedback. Do you think you can do me a favor and clear some of your inbox so that I can ask you a question? I really appreciate it bro. Thanks again.....


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Hey brother, I just wanted to say thank you for helping my buddy out with his questions. I know I know you but you are from reading your articles the last few years any information you can give him I would greatly appreciate it brother thank you..

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[RamboStallone]

depending on the length of cycle...(more than 6 weeks)...

yes PCT is useless......TIME is the only thing that will help...
add time with a good tapper and some natural test boosters
is the best thing you can do.....the old "hcg novla clomid" thing is
USELESS...it only prolongs your recovery....

its like putting a bandaid.....over a bandaid

Take the bandaids off and let the wound heal naturally [emoji4]

 

[bigmills]

The reason the second labs show higher test and lower LH and FSH because you injected HCG lol. That test level is from the HCG not your natural production. No offense bro, but 10 years of research my ass. [emoji57]

Hey brother I'm sure you see that I told swifto that I appreciate him helping my buddy out with some answers. Just so you know the same goes for you and know you are very knowledgeable and have been around a long time and I appreciate any help you can give him..

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[JayDub302]

Take the bandaids off and let the wound heal naturally [emoji4]

What about liver support (N2guard, Liv52, tuaca, milk thistle etc.)? Then NAC, natural test boosters and even peptides?


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[tenny]

peps are a scam...(some will disagree)...

liv support should already be in the mix...

a good quality trib. would be a good start...

 

[eaglecall]

What about liver support (N2guard, Liv52, tuaca, milk thistle etc.)? Then NAC, natural test boosters and even peptides?


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Stay away from ANYTHING that is a synthetic drug for now. Focus on diet, nutrients, and give time to your body. Plenty of time.

 

[JeanClaude]

I appreciate the kind words. But I'm not in agreement with other knowledgable figures when it comes to PCT sometimes.









Not LH receptors, but leydig cells in his testes actually.

Yes we are both correct. Yes the leydig cells produce testosterone but the actual stimulus in this case is the hcg acting on the Lh receptor on the leydig cell, thereby producing testosterone. Simple google confirms. Maybe it was a misinterpretation.

I had said the testosterone production was caused by the hcg acting on the Lh receptor in the testes. Obvs leydig cells are the only testosterone producing cells in the testes, which have LH receptors.

That is the mechanism of action of the hcg to stimulate testosterone production.

No disrespect intended swifto.


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[Swifto]

depending on the length of cycle...(more than 6 weeks)...

yes PCT is useless......TIME is the only thing that will help...
add time with a good tapper and some natural test boosters
is the best thing you can do.....the old "hcg novla clomid" thing is
USELESS...it only prolongs your recovery....

its like putting a bandaid.....over a bandaid

You cannot deny SERMs raise endogenous LH, FSH and Testosterone in hypogonadal males.

HCG, Clomid and Nolvadex are not useless for HPTA restoration and treatment, the medical data on all 3 is quite the contrary.