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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 05:38 PM
rj2012's Avatar
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PCT didn't work! Help!

So I ran a cycle about 6 months ago. Looked like this
week 1-7 500mg test E
week 1-6 600mg eq
week 1-3 40mg dbol/day
week 4-7 50mg proviron/day
hcg 750iu eod week 7-9
week 10 toremifene 60mg day and 50mg clomid a day
week 11 toremifene 40mg day


I don't think I have ever recovered. I never got my sex drive back, im lucky to have sex once a week. I've been down, I guess depressed though I hate to admit it. It's been 4 weeks since my pct ended and I went to get my blood levels checked.

Testosterone total is 359ng/dl Before I started the cycle it was at 520
Free testosterone 11.5 ng/dl
Cortisol 14.1microgm/dl
Prolactin 38.9 ng/ml WAY HIGH avg. is 3.0-16.0
TSH 3.8 was at 1.4 before cycle...did pituitary become insensitive?
Free t4 .83ng/dl was at .64 before cycle
My pottasium and glucose were also low, but just barely. glucose was 70mg/dl

I have been advised by my doc to get an MRI because high prolactin is a sign of a prolactinoma. I have also been advised by my friend to run another pct because my last pct was too weak. So Im running another pct with toremifene @ 120mg first 3 days, 80mg day 4-10, 60mg day 10-17, 40mg day 18-25.

You guys have any ideas? Someway I can make sense of this, and feel better? It really sucks being me right now
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 05:56 PM
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Bro one of the best pct drugs is aromisen. I might be spelling it wrong but ergopep sells it under the research kits. Well worth it. Take one pill before bedtime
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Old 10-18-2011, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splking1 View Post
Bro one of the best pct drugs is aromisen. I might be spelling it wrong but ergopep sells it under the research kits. Well worth it. Take one pill before bedtime
How long do you take it?
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 06:13 PM
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Aromasin is the name and I will agree it's one of the best PCTs you can get... Moreover supplement your nutrition with DAA (D-Aspartic Acid) from True protein.. Hope it helps man...
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 06:21 PM
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I use Aromasin @25mg ED throughout my entire PCT, along with Vit-E to help with cortisol.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 06:45 PM
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Deff run another PCT, but may I reccomend just the basic tried and proved Clomid and Aromasin. Now if that doesn't work, then you shut yourself down hard and might need TRT to get your test in check. Maybe even invest into some Caber, Bromo, or Primi which will help with the prolactin issues. Run another PCT as follows...
Clomid 100/75/50/50
Aromasin 25/25/12.5/12.5
Maybe even blast some HCG before the PCT again, but make sure you wait I think 4 to 7 days before you start your PCT after the last HCG pin. Then report back bro!!!
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:11 PM
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Hey guys thx for all the great advice. This place seems really knowledgeable and friendly. I dig.

By the way, should I just stop the toremifene pct Im doing and order some aromasin and hcg?? my boys are already bigger from 4 days of tor...help me decide what i should do. I could finish this pct and get blood work done..if its still low run the aromasin and hcg??

Last edited by rj2012; 10-18-2011 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:59 PM
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when I ran torm I did 120mg/day wk 1, 90mg/day wk 2&3 and 60mg/day wk4, my balls dropped and came back within the first wk so I am definitely going to say your doses were to low for either clomid or torm... I'd like to try torm and aromasin in future to see the synergy btwn two for sure.

and since you already modified your torm the second time around I'd just stick to it and get aromasin for future use.. my suggestion is run the 80mg/day for longer followed by the last wk at 60mg/day, dont bother with dropping down to the 40mg
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Last edited by ManoftheWorld; 10-18-2011 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManoftheWorld View Post
when I ran torm I did 120mg/day wk 1, 90mg/day wk 2&3 and 60mg/day wk4, my balls dropped and came back within the first wk so I am definitely going to say your doses were to low for either clomid or torm... I'd like to try torm and aromasin in future to see the synergy btwn two for sure.

and since you already modified your torm the second time around I'd just stick to it and get aromasin for future use.. my suggestion is run the 80mg/day for longer followed by the last wk at 60mg/day, dont bother with dropping down to the 40mg
Thanks a lot for the response, and I will try to do that with the tor, i just don't know if I have enough. Is it ok to replace the tor with nolva(which I have plenty of) when I run out? Should I throw some clomid in the mix(which I have plenty of)?
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 09:57 PM
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That's a very poor cycle to begin with and even worse on the pct.

Before doing anything, did you get your estro checked? The high prolactin will kill your sex drive and so will high estro but high estro will keep your T levels low due to negative feedback.

Here's what I would do:

I would blast hcg for 10 days at 500-1000iu a day along with 12.5 to 25mg aromisin a day(depending on what your estro is now)
Then take four days off hcg, and then start torem at 120 for a week, 90 for a week, 60 for two weeks. Run aromisin thru the entire pct to keep estro down and I would find caber in pill form(MP) and start that at .5mg twice a week during the entire pct.

The above pct will get you going again. Your prolactin must be dealt with but if you find that you also have high estro, then I would skip the hcg and torem and just run the aromisin and caber. Torem and clomid both act in the same way at the pituitary so you can use either. I prefer torem.

That was smart to get blood work but I wouldn't do anything until you know what your estro looks like. I'd also like to see your lh and fsh.
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Last edited by Userat204; 10-18-2011 at 09:59 PM.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Userat204 View Post
That's a very poor cycle to begin with and even worse on the pct.

Before doing anything, did you get your estro checked? The high prolactin will kill your sex drive and so will high estro but high estro will keep your T levels low due to negative feedback.

Here's what I would do:

I would blast hcg for 10 days at 500-1000iu a day along with 12.5 to 25mg aromisin a day(depending on what your estro is now)
Then take four days off hcg, and then start torem at 120 for a week, 90 for a week, 60 for two weeks. Run aromisin thru the entire pct to keep estro down and I would find caber in pill form(MP) and start that at .5mg twice a week during the entire pct.

The above pct will get you going again. Your prolactin must be dealt with but if you find that you also have high estro, then I would skip the hcg and torem and just run the aromisin and caber. Torem and clomid both act in the same way at the pituitary so you can use either. I prefer torem.

That was smart to get blood work but I wouldn't do anything until you know what your estro looks like. I'd also like to see your lh and fsh.
Ok this sounds great, and I really want to do it. Thanks a ton for responding! The only problem I have with what you said though is that I already started another pct of torem, Im only 5 days in, but I want to do what you say. I want to get estrogen and fsh and lh tested too but Im taking torem so my levels would be skewed right? What do you think I should do? Stop torem and wait awhile to get more blood work? Then start with your protocol? Thanks again, its so nice to find some helpful people.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 10:54 PM
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Since you have already started the torem, I would just go ahead and continue on with it. Hcg at this point will be counterproductive after starting a serm. If it were me, I would run aromisin at 12.5 mg ED during the entire pct and adjust if needed. I would also get some caber from manpower immediately and run that at .5mg twice a week(you could do 3 x a week for the first two weeks).

You could get a test done to see where your estro is at right now, which would still be helpful, but lh and fsh at this point will be effected by torem. you also likely don't need the MRI your doc wants. That's just procedure when they see elevated prolactin in males. They are checking for a pituitary tumor. I'm sure you don't have one. Lol.

So caber, aromisin, torem. Run all of them 4 weeks. Caber and aromisin will still take up to a week or so to build in your system but you want aromisin over arimidex or letro. Aromisin is a suicidal inhibitor and will not cause a rebound in estro once you stop taking it.

I wouldn't worry too much, I personally think you have elevated estro and prolactin causing your problems but this is all just my best guess.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2011, 11:09 PM
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Maybe you could send me a pm about where to get this stuff. I know you said manpower but I can't find that...I need to get it quick, as I've already started the torem.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2011, 06:14 PM
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mpresearchsupply.com
manpower nutrition
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Old 10-19-2011, 06:18 PM
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You only ran pct for 2 weeks and expected to be recovered from that cycle???
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2011, 07:37 PM
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if you have enough clomid, id run a four week cycle like this:

week 1 100mg ed
week 2 60 mg ed
week 3 60 mg ed
week 4 40 mg ed


nolva will not do much in helping your boys recover, they are for estrogen and gyno.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:10 AM
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Thanks a lot for all the help. Im really worried though, because I've read that low estrogen causes a rise in TSH which raises prolactin. So how does doing a pct fix this? Both my tsh and prolactin are way high, is pct going to change this somehow?

And someone said to take dostinex and I've read that it has some gnarly side effects that would make me feel worse than I do now...

Im not sure how taking aromasin, which lowers estrogen, will help if my estrogen is already low. but i didnt test that so I cant say for sure that it is...will aromasin lower the prolactin or do I HAVE to take dostinex??
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rj2012 View Post
Thanks a lot for all the help. Im really worried though, because I've read that low estrogen causes a rise in TSH which raises prolactin. So how does doing a pct fix this? Both my tsh and prolactin are way high, is pct going to change this somehow?

And someone said to take dostinex and I've read that it has some gnarly side effects that would make me feel worse than I do now...

Im not sure how taking aromasin, which lowers estrogen, will help if my estrogen is already low. but i didnt test that so I cant say for sure that it is...will aromasin lower the prolactin or do I HAVE to take dostinex??
toremifene will lower your estrogen, which will increase your tsh and prolactin levels, so stop taking it.
clomid does not lower your estrogen, use this for your pct instead.
once you run a full four week pct with clomid, have your levels retested and see how things turn out.

its simpler than you think.. dont keep taking things to fix this, that or another, just run a simple pct with clomid, as suggested wk1, 100mg ed, wk 2 and 3, 60mg ed, and wk 4 40mg ed. nothing else. nothing less.
then retest your bloodwork and let us know how it turned out.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Userat204 View Post
Since you have already started the torem, I would just go ahead and continue on with it. Hcg at this point will be counterproductive after starting a serm. If it were me, I would run aromisin at 12.5 mg ED during the entire pct and adjust if needed. I would also get some caber from manpower immediately and run that at .5mg twice a week(you could do 3 x a week for the first two weeks).

You could get a test done to see where your estro is at right now, which would still be helpful, but lh and fsh at this point will be effected by torem. you also likely don't need the MRI your doc wants. That's just procedure when they see elevated prolactin in males. They are checking for a pituitary tumor. I'm sure you don't have one. Lol.

So caber, aromisin, torem. Run all of them 4 weeks. Caber and aromisin will still take up to a week or so to build in your system but you want aromisin over arimidex or letro. Aromisin is a suicidal inhibitor and will not cause a rebound in estro once you stop taking it.

I wouldn't worry too much, I personally think you have elevated estro and prolactin causing your problems but this is all just my best guess.
This, exactly. That PRL alone could be killing your libido!
Lower PRL with Caber, lower E2 with Aromasin and let the Torem or Clomid bounce your levels back up. May want to also add in some Ephedrine (as it's supposedly a cortisol killer), 3 grams of Vitamin C and Green tea extract...all for cortisol.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:08 PM
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Im going to run out of torem in 9 days. So that will have been one week torem at 120 days 1-3 then 100 4-7, then 80 for week two, starting tomorrow and then Im out. I have nolvadex and clomid. Which one would be ok to replace the toremifene with? Im going to run the aromasin and caber as soon as I get it, should be tomorrow, but Im gonna run out of toremifene. Any ideas? Should I throw some clomid on top of the toremifene as it is?
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