My best blood test ever

[saps]

Well gang I'm almost over the moon at this latest blood test.
I'm not going to go through every line item but instead focus mainly on the two arenas we care about, viz. lipid profile and hematocrit related stuff.
Allow me to set the context in hopes that some of you might find it comparative correlation to your own usage. I was doing a heavy blast as part of contest prep for the summer of 2011. I had all the usual suspects in that blast including tren and EQ which really put a hampering on most aspects of my blood work. It was during this time and seeing my numbers that I realized I really had to make some changes. So I did things like deciding to drop EQ probably forever and made the realization that tren use will have to be much more wisely and sparingly. Last blood test was two months ago in February. At that time I had BP of 121/84, HDL 47, LDL 134, VLDL 18, Triglycerides 68. These numbers might not seem great to some but they were an improvement from some truly horrid numbers such as an HDL of 11 at the end of 2010.
Now since that blood draw I have maintained my new standard cruise which is test 50mg EOD and mast 40mg EOD. So that's been there the whole time. March 1st I started tren at 40mg EOD as well so I'm 7 weeks into that low dose tren use. 4 weeks ago I started npp at 70mg ED. So to translate I've had the 175/wk test and 140/wk mast in there the whole time and the 140/wk tren most of the time. Granted the npp is a relatively new addition but it is dosed moderately. So I was super curious to see how my numbers moved as in the past before I dialed in my cardio and nutrition I would not gain any HDL on a 250test weekly dose and now I'm clearly on more than that.

Now I have been diligent on my cardio. 30 mins of inclined walking 3-4x a week. This is as much cardio as I've done on a consistent basis ever. My diet has seen the addition of niacin at 1500mg ED. I'm also eating about 3-5 avocados a week I also eat almonds on demand or at will. I also switched to organic free range eggs. These are expensive as can be in my town since only one natural foods store carries them at $6.99 a dozen. So I only have 4 of these a day as opposed to the 6-8 I was eating of store bought. These have been my four primary changes/additions.
I still take 12g of fish oil daily along with the coq10, baby aspirin, vitamin d and c, liver support etc. I of course am still on my statin. I eat oatmeal and or steel cut oats. I won't go through everything just the things I think affect my BP and/or lipid profile. I also do not use extra salt/sodium on anything anymore. I do take tadalafil 2-3x a week and this seems to have had an impact on my BP as well.

The results:
BP is now averaging 116/72 [average of 3 readings per arm measured by MD]
Lipids: HDL now 55, LDL now 112, VLDL now 12, Triglycerides now 52 so total cholesterol is 177 but that number is rather meaningless to me. Pulse was 62 but again there too pulse obviously can vary a ton.

Little Chart for the Visually Inclined
2.21.12 4.17.12
BP 121/84 116/72
HDL 47 55
LDL 134 112
vLDL 18 12
Tris 68 52
Pulse 68 62

This is the highest my HDL has ever been measured in my entire life; even higher than when I first started a statin prior to my aas use. Very pleased with this and its gone up 1 point per week average the past 2 months while simultaneously on the quantity of gear aforementioned. What of course cannot be measured is what the impact of the low dose tren was or wasn't. Or if the moderate npp dose is effecting those numbers. But this does lead me to the thought that with my diet, supps and cardio that I can run a low dose of tren and not have a negative impact on my HDL. I know from previous experience that 500-700mg of tren would take me down 1-2 HDL points per week. Now I'll concede that I was also not doing cardio nor taking some of these HDL raising factors. Equally true 140mg a week of tren is 20-25% of what I normally run so maybe the HDL penalty is also only 20-25%.
Now the other thing I/we cannot isolate is how much of anything is due to any one thing. So if you ask where the credit belongs I cannot definitely say oh its the statin or its the extra cardio or the niacin or whatever. I suppose this kitchen sink approach will never allow for a specific correlation of individual compounds or factors but frankly I almost don't care since the across the boards effect is what I am concerned with.


Also some other blood numbers
Please note the below values are the day after a single pint whole blood donation, so yeah this is as low as they would be over the 2 month span.
9.20.11 11.22.11 2.21.12 4.17.12
RBC 6.7 6.3 5.7 5.3
Hemoglobin 20 18.7 16.9 15.6
Hematocrit 58.2 53.3 49.2 46.2

These tests merely show how effective blood donation can be if you do it every two-three months. The context above should be noted as well. I ran EQ in the summer and my September blood test were horridly off the charts high. I also didn't donate for 6-7 months so that made them even higher than they would be with more frequent donations. Between November and Feb I ran only test and low dose mast, though admittedly I was doing a gram of test for about half that time. Since the Feb blood test and since my numbers were moving in the right direction I choose to add in the above mentioned others. IMO my blood numbers are ok enough that I'm going to up my tren dose probably into the 400-500mg/wk zone and continue with the npp et al. This should be high enough to really impact my HDL which yes you could say I'm trying to find the ceiling on how much I can take before I lose HDL since clearly what I have been using isn't costing me HDL on my new protocol. Probably just do 8 weeks and then re-test in June and then probably drop down to a cruise and recover.

Bottom line is my numbers are nothing stellar, but they are pretty decent given my genetics and all I do take. It just goes to show that being faithful with this aspect of health care and maintenance will likely increase the long term success of playing the aas game. For anyone who has really out of whack lipids or hematocrit while ymmv give it maybe a good and faithful 6 months and you might be in a totally different universe.

 

[Turkishexpress]

Those numbers looks good. I'm about to get tested myself after the horrid numbers I got in January. I hope they come out just as improved.

 

[NZRABBIT]

Congrats mate I know how much this means to you. Must be such a relief to know you can continue with your passion and not have it kill you... or even worse limit the pleasures you gain in living.

Are you going to consider dropping the statin?

Tren A or E? If it's the former then :headbang:

I agree with the kitchen sink approach to HDL... what are the possible cons? $20 a month in supp costs? Also, the recommended supps seem to have many other systemic benefits elsewhere in the body.

 

[triathloncoach]

Nice sustainable numbers. I'm happy for you, and also a little surprised that your BP and lipids are so not bad. Great job too bringing your Crit down. I haven't donated blood for a year. I'm due.

Ya know, it's always nice to see someone being responsible and getting their blood work. I respect you for that. And it's really really nice to see blood work numbers that don't make me gasp.

Nice.

 

[SIR-LOIN]

I'm curious ... were your liver numbers whacked out at any point during the blast (ALT AST)?

 

[matt1164]

is your niacin prescription or otc?

 

[saps]

Those numbers looks good. I'm about to get tested myself after the horrid numbers I got in January. I hope they come out just as improved.

Hey at least you are getting tested, otherwise its all a guessing game

Congrats mate I know how much this means to you. Must be such a relief to know you can continue with your passion and not have it kill you... or even worse limit the pleasures you gain in living.

Are you going to consider dropping the statin?

Tren A or E? If it's the former then :headbang:

I agree with the kitchen sink approach to HDL... what are the possible cons? $20 a month in supp costs? Also, the recommended supps seem to have many other systemic benefits elsewhere in the body.

Thanks buddy and yes I am delighted that I actually brought up my HDL, down my LDL etc while on 800mg a week, it almost assures me that I can survive those 1500+ contest prep blasts and should recover well on my low dose cruises. Given my genetics I will likely be on the statin forever. 12 years ago that's what they told me. I suppose I could do a trial run of 2 months off the statin and see how my numbers move. Equally true if there is any truth behind the potential for reduction of a first heart attack then I'll need to stay on it. I truly have terrible cardiac genetics, dad died at 47 of cardiac arrest so staying on a statin for life is no big deal for me.
As for the cost yeah the coq10 is certainly the most expensive I'm probably over that $20 figure you quoted but not by much. Baby aspirin is a penny a pill. Some of the dietary changes can add up but overall nothing to complain of.

Nice sustainable numbers. I'm happy for you, and also a little surprised that your BP and lipids are so not bad. Great job too bringing your Crit down. I haven't donated blood for a year. I'm due.

Ya know, it's always nice to see someone being responsible and getting their blood work. I respect you for that. And it's really really nice to see blood work numbers that don't make me gasp.

Nice.

Thanks TC. Yeah I truly think it is the holistic approach that has brought me this degree of success per se. If I took out any one aspect like the cardio or the supps or the statin I'm sure the cumulative effect would be reduced. I always avoided the cardio but from a life extension position I'm stuck with it now. As you noted I have no doubt its benefiting my BP and lipids. Now get yourself in for a donation, I'm sure you need it.

I'm curious ... were your liver numbers whacked out at any point during the blast (ALT AST)?

Yes good question. I don't have all my values but I do have the last two.
2.21.12 4.17.12
ALT 147 88
AST 73 53
Liver values are tricky to gauge how much of a problem you might have. My MD even told me my statin use likely makes them higher than if I was off them but the pros so outweigh this minor con I'm not stopping the statin. Since 2.21.12 the main thing I did for my liver was to add ManPower's liver support caps and clearly they have worked to bring me down although by definition my values are still out of range by my MD stays I have nothing to worry about where they are at now.

is your niacin prescription or otc?

OTC, anything real niacin will work. Just avoid the flush free stuff that is worthless. I prefer to take mine pre bed as if I take it in the AM sometimes I have that burning face flush feeling a few hours later. Taking the baby aspirin with the niacin reduces this feeling but now I just do it at night and avoid the uncomfortable feeling altogether. It is also dose dependent it seems 500 or 1000mg are very tolerable for me. 1500 kinda burns and 2000mg is a face melter. So I settled on 1500. I know Dante [DC] recommends 1000mg AM and PM and that might be something I try but things seem ok as is so I'll maintain this protocol for now.

 

[matt1164]

I'm glad you're bloodwork is better.

health is a gift, we should all treat it like one

 

[TODouble2]

its great to see threads like this...

i have a question about donating blood. i have never done it. what compounds are the ones which you should look to donate blood while on? i hear about donating blood while on EQ. any other ones too look out for???

its been a while since my last bloodwork, but one thing that was perfect was my hematocrit.

 

[magnus82]

This is good to hear. Our numbers are nearly identical. I also switched eggs, added niacin, and started cardio. I also added coconut oil and, L-arginine, and red rice yeast. Hope my numbers turn out as well as yours.

 

[saps]

its great to see threads like this...

i have a question about donating blood. i have never done it. what compounds are the ones which you should look to donate blood while on? i hear about donating blood while on EQ. any other ones too look out for???

its been a while since my last bloodwork, but one thing that was perfect was my hematocrit.

IME EQ rose my rbc/hemaglobin/hematocrit faster and higher than anything else. Merely not running it keeps me semi-decent. Having said that most of the other compounds will increase rbc et al over time and dose dependent so the need to donate will be proportional to what you take and how much you take and how long you take it. One thing to note though is merely ceasing a compound like EQ will not by itself return you to normal levels, you must extract that higher concentrated stuff out of there.

 

[saps]

The 2 month update after 500mg/wk of both npp and tren added in

Well gang gave blood Monday, blood test Tuesday and here's the results. Its not unexpected but I must confess it is a reminder that all the dietary changes and supps and even statins and cardio simply cannot overcome the presence of enough of some aas compounds.

I won't re-hash whats already posted above. Instead I will merely remind that the aas protocol from the April test until this June one was the same low dose test and mast 175/140 wk respectively with the addition of the npp and tren each dosed around 500mg a week. Last test I was actually able to raise HDL and lower LDL, BP and all the rbc/hemo/hemato related numbers on a low dose of tren 140/wk. As mentioned above yes there have been dietary changes like the addition of niacin, cage-free organic brown eggs, avocados by the boat load, almonds at will, etc. Diet remained relatively consistent so the major change is the addition of the two 19nors. So here is what 2 months, actually a bit longer on the npp did:
2.21.12 4.17.12 6.18.12
BP 121/84 116/72 128/84
HDL 47 55 41
LDL 134 112 123
vLDL 18 12 17
Tris 68 52 55
Pulse 68 62 72

2.21.12 4.17.12 6.18.12
RBC 5.7 5.3 6.1
Hemoglobin 16.9 15.6 17.9
Hematocrit 49.2 46.2 53.3

Again I'm not totally surprised by the impact of the tren et al but I am disappointed. The loss of HDL is relatively the same as I found when I wasn't taking a kitchen sink of supps to boost it. That is 1.5-2 points per week. Bottom line for me is tren when dosed high enough will just begin to obliterate my numbers. I mean this was 2 months at 500 a week and my hematocrit was up 7. Imagine where it would be if I either dosed the tren higher or ran more than two months. [To be clear I have now ran out of npp and dropped my tren down to 140 a week again just to use up this last couple mls I got.]

The numbers don't lie I made significant improvement across the boards bloodwise either off tren or with it dosed low. How much is the npp a factor? I just don't know but based on previous experience I will lay most of the blame at the feet of the tren. Now given the progress I made from Feb to April I am assuming that returning to a similar protocol will restore most of my numbers. Over the course of the next two months as I cruise on just low dose mast and test and 140/wk of the tren for maybe 3-4 more weeks.

The message to me is clear. Knowing my personal health issues and areas of concern I'm not yet banning tren from my system but certainly it is a compound I must be very intentional with its use. I certainly foresee no more than one higher dosed run of tren a year for me moving forward. Could I run it indefinitely at around 100-150mg a week yeah probably but I think I'm not going to do that. Test and mast remain my two base 52 week a year compounds and I'm fine with that.

What can others glean or learn from this? While ymmv expect tren to really take a toll on your blood numbers. Some might not think a 14 point HDL loss is all that much or that rising 7 hematocrit in 2 months is ok since I was still under 55. Again this was 2 months of 500mg/wk. While it might not be a linear curve extrapolate out what 3 months at 750mg/wk might have been. I'll concede I have below average heart genetics but still I urge all to be diligent and vigilant with your blood work and if you're on a high dose or long duration tren run know those numbers and realize they are likely pretty horrid. Again not saying don't use tren. I will continue a limited and restricted use myself. But don't just think you can eat enough of the right foods or supps or Rx meds to counter its negative effects.

 

[matt1164]

saps,

this is a great thread. ton of great info here.

r u going to lower the dose for a while?

 

[saps]

saps,

this is a great thread. ton of great info here.

r u going to lower the dose for a while?

Yes I literally ran out of the npp last week so that is gone. I have maybe 3mls of tren left and just so it doesn't go to waste I'm going to take 40mg EOD till that's gone. As mentioned above from Feb to April on the same tren dose I was actually able to achieve improvements in all blood numbers. So the plan is a couple more weeks of the tren and once its gone returning to my baseline of the 175 test and 140 mast per week. So to be clear I've always been on the test and mast this whole time. If my August numbers don't return to where they were in April it will likely be time to visit the notion that my 315mg/wk mast-test cruise is also a bit too high for full recovery. Although again looking at me from Feb to April when I did it I think its do-able.

 

[saps]

August update

OK gang I'm keeping this going. I know I said I was going to throttle back down but some circumstances changed and I've actually been blasting on some high test for the first time in awhile. I'm also actually not on mast at all but I do have some proviron. Basically I got some test I wanted to try and then I won some test and then was given some test to well test and that's what I'm on now. So in the last 2 months I've actually been on test at 700mg a week then took it to a gram and now 1400mg a week just trying to use this up.
So these numbers are basically on an average of a gram of test a week the past two months. Note that my cardio has dropped off. I've been working nights and sleeping during the day and thus I have less time to go to the train and for better or worse I do cardio just once or twice a week now compared with 3-4x before. Most of my diet and supps are the same as before. So still do niacin at 1000mg ED, the fish oil, I've added coconut oil as well. I won't go thru everything its pretty much the same as above.


So here is the progression chart with yesterday's results
**broken link removed**
So here's my reflections on these new numbers: Well first things first. As you know my chief concern is HDL. According to my spreadsheet I took my last hit of tren and deca the final day of June. July 2nd started on just the test at 700wk and bumped it up to 1050wk on the 22 and then to 1400 on August 5. So as I said above lets call it an average of a gram. There's two ways to view my HDL. One is to say I lost points which I did. But its also true to say I only lost 2 points in 2 months on a gram of test. Compared that to the 14 points I lost of 500mg of tren during the same time period. Now granted I was also on 500 of the npp but basically it was the same total dose of aas but since the compounds were different the results were much different. This is where things could get misleading because some might draw the conclusion that oh I can just run a gram of test a month and only lose 1 HDL point. While that is statistically accurate from this one sample I am hesitant to conclude this dose level is one I can maintain HDL at. Now in the past 500mg of test a week would cause me to lose HDL. Granted I now have a very HDL friendly diet and supps program. Let me further concede that I've found my test tren mast cruise I used from Feb to April enabled me to gain HDL despite a 400mg+ plus dose. So it does seem now like I can handle a higher cruise dose per se provided I have a diet cardio and supps protocol like I do. I still am uncomfortable with the notion that hey now you can cruise on a gram of test and just maintain what you got because overall my numbers are not as high as I want them to be and thus I will return to a lower dose for cruising with the knowledge based on experience that I can make some moderate HDL gains while having a moderate cruise dose.
OK the other stuff. Well LDL crawled up a bit and again that's probably just from being on that gram. vLDL the same as before. I was pleased to see my triglycerides dropped by 25%. I'll attribute this I suppose to the continued use of good fats, the addition of the coconut oil and the cessation of the tren.

Blood wise everything is lower than 2 months ago which tells me tren has more impact than test on rbc/hema/hemo etc. I'm still high for a normal person but given all the aas I take I think the numbers are fair. Given my consistency with blood donation I don't see these as red or even yellow flags. I am quite certain a two month cruise would drop me back down below 50 on my hematocrit.

So overall not too bad. Given that I haven't been in cruise mode in over four months I think things are proportionally ok. The illustration definitely seems to be an underlying of the notion that tren is the most damaging aas for me. My relatively minimal losses on test alone suggest that overall it is something I can use in low doses for recovery and in moderation doses for moderate recovery.

Moving forward it will take me maybe 2-3 more weeks to go thru the test I have promised to test and use up. Then yes it will be time for some cruising. What I will wrestle with is how low to cruise at. Part of me wants to drop real low and really skyrocket my HDL up near 60 if I can. But the other part of me is tempted to use a higher cruise dose like I did earlier this year. The numbers suggest I will still make some HDL gains but maybe only to like 50 in 2 months.

Hopefully this info continues to be of benefit to others. I know it means a lot to me but then again this is my own body and my own numbers.

 

[thehazzle]

Have you used any orals while in between getting bloods? I'd guess they would be worse than tren on lipids

 

[saps]

Have you used any orals while in between getting bloods? I'd guess they would be worse than tren on lipids

This entire year the only oral I've run is some proviron which I started a month ago at 50mg ED. Guess I didn't mention that above, oops. I don't really use orals anymore. Prior to this proviron it was 2010 since I had an oral in my regime. Proviron not being an 17aa makes it pretty mild on my system

 

[Deleted member 106824]

Good stuff Saps, something you mentioned is almost exactly what I was thinking about a few hours ago. You mentioned how, although some of your numbers were worse after 2 months of switching from tren/deca to test, another way to look at it is that the test essentially kept you roughly where you were, so maybe it was harsh enough to keep you at bad levels, but if you started it with good levels it would have taken a long time for it to get you to those same bad levels. So therefore, maybe its best to leave harsh compounds and orals in particular until the end of a cycle rather than the beginning? The example I was thinking about is that my upcoming cycle will be low test + moderate tren for 6 weeks then moderate test + superdrol for 2 weeks. I know superdrol fucks up my blood work (just getting rid of the last 2 weeks of it I have). I doubt tren will effect my liver and lipid values as quickly and drastically. So if I did the superdrol + test first I'd be shooting my liver enzymes up and HDL down, then the test+tren would keep it at those crappy levels for 6 weeks so a total of 8 weeks of crappy levels. Whereas by doing test+tren first it will be a little worse and then those last 2 weeks with the test+superdrol it gets crappy. Overall maybe ending at the same levels but in one scenario things are bad for 8 weeks whereas in the other its more like 2. Makes sense in my head anyway


Also, how are your results in the gym on 1g of Test/week compared to the previous 500/500 Tren/Deca (plus low test/mast)?

 

[jealous1senv]

Congrats my man. health = EVERYTHING!!

 

[saps]

Good stuff Saps, something you mentioned is almost exactly what I was thinking about a few hours ago. You mentioned how, although some of your numbers were worse after 2 months of switching from tren/deca to test, another way to look at it is that the test essentially kept you roughly where you were, so maybe it was harsh enough to keep you at bad levels, but if you started it with good levels it would have taken a long time for it to get you to those same bad levels. So therefore, maybe its best to leave harsh compounds and orals in particular until the end of a cycle rather than the beginning? The example I was thinking about is that my upcoming cycle will be low test + moderate tren for 6 weeks then moderate test + superdrol for 2 weeks. I know superdrol fucks up my blood work (just getting rid of the last 2 weeks of it I have). I doubt tren will effect my liver and lipid values as quickly and drastically. So if I did the superdrol + test first I'd be shooting my liver enzymes up and HDL down, then the test+tren would keep it at those crappy levels for 6 weeks so a total of 8 weeks of crappy levels. Whereas by doing test+tren first it will be a little worse and then those last 2 weeks with the test+superdrol it gets crappy. Overall maybe ending at the same levels but in one scenario things are bad for 8 weeks whereas in the other its more like 2. Makes sense in my head anyway


Also, how are your results in the gym on 1g of Test/week compared to the previous 500/500 Tren/Deca (plus low test/mast)?

Its a interesting theory pumped but I honestly do know if that would be the real world application or not. In my own case I'd be interested to see if I cruise my HDL back up if another 2 month run of gram+ of test would only have minimal losses or not. I truly have too small a sample size to make conclusive judgements.
Regarding your plan I've never touched sdrol and I have no numbers to compare how it effects lipids and blood compared to tren so I won't even speculate.
My results in the gym are comparable which is nice since tren gives me more strength per mg than test. Granted I have twice the test as I did tren. Doubled 495 yesterday on bench, compare that with 515x1 a few months back on the tren and npp. So its about a wash and maybe even better for the test since I am still nursing that tricep/elbow issue I spoke of in the TT. PLus that was my first time on flat bench in months and I know I need a few workouts to dial in the kinetics and re-acclimate to the movement. I've got 3 more weeks on this test at 1400mg a week and I'd love to go beyond my 515 PR. We'll see I guess