Restoring HPTA after years of steroid use

AnAboliKPiKe · Oct 19, 2012

Hello all. Wanted to make a quick post and provide updates regarding the protocol I'm using to restore my HPTA after years of steroid use. I'm 28, started using AAS at 20. Did a couple of cycles, stayed on for around a year I think, went off for a year or so, went back on for a few years straight, tried to post cycle at the end of '09 but just ended up getting back on, and now here I am.
I've only been running ~250mg Test-E/week for the past couple months, just getting my body used to a somewhat normal T level.
I am now 5 weeks into what I feel is a very promising post cycle protocol.
Here it is:
Week 1-15 HCG @ 1666IU 2x/week
Week 1-10 HMG @ 37.5IU 2x/week
Week 1-20 clomiphene citrate @ 50mg 2x/day
Week 1-15 tamoxifen citrate @ 20mg/day
Week 1-6 Methandrostenolone @ 10mg/day in the morning
Week 1-15 exemestane @ 25mg/day
Week 6: triptorelin acetate @ 100mcg
Week 1-6 Test-E @ 100mg/week
Week 7-12 taper Test-E by 20mg/week

Here's my thinking:
1. I need to get the gonads going again. I do this by stimulating them with LH & FSH analogs.
2. I need to get my hypothalamic-pituitary axis back in line. I do this with clomiphene, tamoxifen, exemestane, and triptorelin. Reduce estrogen, stimulate gonadotrope release.
3. There isn't going to be an instantaneous recovery, so some exogenous T is required to keep me from feeling like shit. I am basing my post-cycle T usage off of Prisoner's Test-Taper protocol.

I felt like shit the first few weeks of this, depressed and crying and shit (gay I know). Dick was all shriveled up and never got hard. But I'm also living in a shitty place right now and dealing with a fucked up girl situation so that can't help.
I'm actually feeling pretty great after 5 weeks, and I expect to continue to feel better as my body acclimates to mere mortal levels of T.
Sex drive isn't what it used to be on high levels of T and living with a hot girlfriend, but I feel it coming back. I'm getting raging morning woods again and am actually able to successfully jack it now. I'm blowing huge loads too, way more than I ever did on AAS, I take that as a good sign.
Sorry if some of that was TMI for some of the more faint-hearted members, but these are all things we deal with when trying to kick the steroid habit.
My reasons for discontinuing steroid usage are multiple. My lipid profile was fucked all to hell and I really started getting scared I was developing CAD and was going to die. Also, I was just damn tired of being dependent on something. I want to let my body take control again and not have to worry about sticking myself every week and sourcing more juice and who should I tell and all that bullshit that comes along with this stuff. No doubt I had an awesome time while on and even won a contest, but I'm moving on.
I will be getting monthly labs in addition to the ones I have already had. All results will be posted so others can follow my recovery.
Check out my attached labs.

AnAboliKPiKe · Oct 19, 2012

One more lab

pieguy · Oct 19, 2012

Who gave you that PCT protocol? It seems kind of counter-intuitive to me to run any bit of test e/dbol while using clomid and nolva. And you shot trip while the ester was still active in your system meaning you used it while you still have exogenous test suppressing your HPTA. I'm sure once you've run clomid/aromasin/nolva for a really long time, you'll eventually recover, but seems like a few corrections shoulda been made when you first started. If somebody whose much more informed than me gave you this PCT protocol, then by all means, keep on truckin.

mike3000l · Oct 19, 2012

Labs are getting better. Just keep in mind using exogenous hormones will not restore your HPTA. HCG, test, dbol have to be discountinued and SERMS (clomid, tamoxifen, toremifene) only. HCG will stimulate testosterone production because it mimics luntinizing hormone (LH). This is good to get your balls working again, but remember the goal is to also resume normal function of the hypothalums and pituitary. The protocol looks pretty good as it is very smooth transitions, but i would recommend, when all hormones are discontinued to run the SERMS for 8 weeks, just to reinforce things.

Also carefull on the HCG dosage. High doseing for extended periods of time can desensitize the testies to LH.

Good luck Bro, hope everything works out. Its a real good sign your getting morning wood. Try and keep that going...morning wood = optimal hormonal levels or close to it.

jm425 · Oct 19, 2012

This is a very informative thread and I like that you are posting up your progress on your road to hpta recovery. I will be following closely.

Kaladryn · Oct 19, 2012

You are just digging yourself a deeper hole.

Think about how the HPTA works, GNRH stimulates production of LH, which leads to testosterone production, right? What feeds back and controls GNRH production? Estradiol. Now where does ALL estradiol come from? Aromatization of testosterone.

Ok now look at your first labs, testosterone is only double digits, but E2 is somehow 40! There is only one way this is possible: hyperactive aromatase.

Everything you are doing is just causing aromatase to be MORE hyperactive. All the "positive" results on your future labs are meaningless, you are just artificially stimulating testosterone production. You are SO hyperactive that even with the aromasin and natty test you are STILL pushing 40 E2. This is because of your hyperactive asromatase AND testicular aromatase is going crazy under those megadoses of HCG.

The idea of "PCT" is to minimize the impact of the TRANSITION from exo test to endo test. There isn't a way to "jumpstart" your HPTA once you are off. HCG helps you from become sterile during AAS or TRT use, but it just further shuts you down by stimulating testicular aromatase if used in PCT or later. You gotta go back 20 years before most people believed the dogma of megadosing HCG after a cycle.

The only thing I think you may have some success with is the triptorelin, if you don't destroy it's positive effects with further suppression by AIs and SERMS.

Sorry to be harsh and not very optimistic, but I wouldn't want others to get fooled by this...

Dopamin · Oct 19, 2012

if i where you,i will go for the first 12-16 weeks only with HCG and after that,i would use HMG and HCG together

i would also not use more than 1000Units HCG because HCG stimulats directli in testicles the aromatisation so the use of aromasin will not complete inhibit the E2 production

you have to use the Triptorelin after HCG and HMG regime,otherwise it will not stimulate Gnrh

after Triptorelin use,i would also use clomifene only each other day
using clomifene in higer doeses will do the opposite

there are a lot of puplication to use clom each day vs each other day

good luck

Google&Pubmed · Oct 20, 2012

Subbed to read while I'm actually not passing out!

sexyboy · Oct 20, 2012

Kaladryn said:
You are just digging yourself a deeper hole.

Think about how the HPTA works, GNRH stimulates production of LH, which leads to testosterone production, right? What feeds back and controls GNRH production? Estradiol. Now where does ALL estradiol come from? Aromatization of testosterone.

Ok now look at your first labs, testosterone is only double digits, but E2 is somehow 40! There is only one way this is possible: hyperactive aromatase.

Everything you are doing is just causing aromatase to be MORE hyperactive. All the "positive" results on your future labs are meaningless, you are just artificially stimulating testosterone production. You are SO hyperactive that even with the aromasin and natty test you are STILL pushing 40 E2. This is because of your hyperactive asromatase AND testicular aromatase is going crazy under those megadoses of HCG.

The idea of "PCT" is to minimize the impact of the TRANSITION from exo test to endo test. There isn't a way to "jumpstart" your HPTA once you are off. HCG helps you from become sterile during AAS or TRT use, but it just further shuts you down by stimulating testicular aromatase if used in PCT or later. You gotta go back 20 years before most people believed the dogma of megadosing HCG after a cycle.

The only thing I think you may have some success with is the triptorelin, if you don't destroy it's positive effects with further suppression by AIs and SERMS.

Sorry to be harsh and not very optimistic, but I wouldn't want others to get fooled by this...

hey bro i am doing hcg 100iu eod on my cycle right now like you mentioned above but what do you think of doing hcg the first week the aas clears your system of fast esters like prop/masteron? i was thinking of first week of clearance of doing 4-5 days of 1,000iu hcg a day then stop. pct will be 4-5 weeks nova/aromasin.

SB

AnAboliKPiKe · Oct 20, 2012

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm hoping this thread can become a source of information for anyone trying to recover from years of AAS use. I am by no means an expert in endocrinology and am not suggesting anyone follow this protocol over other tried and true ones. This protocol was put together after reviewing countless primary research articles regarding restoring testicular function in hypogonadic men.

First let me reference the research I have based my protocol on:

PCT - An Uncontrolled Clinical Trial for Treatment of Androgen Induced Hypogonadism Michael C. Scally, M.D. & Andrew L. Hodge, M.S.

Impotence Related to Anabolic Steroid Use in a Body Builder Response to Clomiphene Citrate
CAROL BICKELMAN LAURA FERRIES, MD R.PHILIP EATON, MD Albuquerque, New Mexico

Human Reproduction vol.12 no.5 pp.980–986, 1997
Subcutaneous self-administration of highly purified follicle stimulating hormone and human chorionic gonadotrophin for the treatment of male hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism
S.Burgue ́s1, M.D.Caldero ́n1,2 and the Spanish Collaborative Group on Male Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism

HPGA Normalization Protocol After Androgen Treatment
N Vergel, AL Hodge, MC Scally Program for Wellness Restoration, PoWeR

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Printed in U.S.A.
Copyright 0 1995 by The Endocrine Society
Effect of Raising Endogenous Testosterone Levels in
Impotent Men with Secondary Hypogonadism: Blind Placebo-Controlled Trial with Clomiphene
ANDRE T. GUAY, SUDHIR BANSAL, AND GERALD J. HEATLEY

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Vol. 61, No. 4 Copyright © 1985 by The Endocrine Society Printed in U.S.A.
Male Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism: Factors Influencing Response to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin and Human Menopausal Gonadotropin, Including Prior Exogenous Androgens*
S. BRYSON LEY AND JOHN M. LEONARD

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Vol. 60, No. 2 Copyright © 1985 by The Endocrine Society Printed in U.S.A.
Single Versus Repeated Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Stimulation in the Differential Diagnosis of Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism*
LEO DUNKEL, JAAKKO PERHEENTUPA, AND RITVA SORVA

Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism Copyright © 1982 by The Endocrine Society
Vol. 55, No. 1
Printed in U.S.A.
Testicular Responsiveness to Chronic Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Administration in Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism
ROSARIO D'AGATA, ENZO VICARI, ANTONIA ALIFFI, GRAZIA MAUGERI, ALESSANDRO MONGIOl, AND SALVATORE GULIZIA

**broken link removed**

TESTOSTERONE NATION | Test Taper Protocol - Page 1

A google search of any of the primary research articles will link to free full-text documents. The information I gained from AFBOARD has no reference to primary research to validate their suggestions, what is suggested seems to make sense however. Prisoner's Test Taper protocol also does not include any references, although he does mention that what he is stating has been proven in primary research.

It seems the main issues with my PCT are as follows:

1. HCG is being dosed too high, despite numerous primary research articles citing much greater doses for much longer periods of time successfully restoring gonadal function.
Here is research regarding HCG usage and dosage:
**broken link removed**
From this research as well as Kaladryn's advice I may switch to 500IU HCG/day instead of 1666IU 2x/week.

2. It is counterintuitive to use any exogenous AAS while attempting recovery. Here is the advice from AFBOARD that I am basing by Dbol usage on:
"Dianabol
Studies and empirical evidence have shown Dianabol to be beneficial to keep Cortisol in check and provide some intermediate relief from the symptoms of low testosterone via an increase of dopamine, IGF-1, and Central Nervous System stimulation. The heightened dopamine will combat Prolactin and help raise the levels of endogenous Human Growth Hormone. Other studies point to a lack of LH suppression when taken first thing in the morning. It shall be noted that only a low dose upon rising is recommended in order to avoid further disruption of the HPTA. This technique is only recommended after very long AAS cycles or when normal Post Cycle Recovery has failed.
Recovery Period Week 1-6: 10mg dbol am, ed"

I would say that my situation qualifies as a "very long AAS cycle when normal Post Cycle Recovery has failed."

My continued usage of Test-E at a very low dose also seems like a wise decision. Of greatest importance is that it is still giving my body a very small kick of T while my gonads haven't fully recovered. This eliminates any massive drop in T levels and allows my body to slowly take over again. I will begin tapering next week and be Test-E and Dbol free soon.
Of note is this excerpt from Prisoner's Test Taper:
"the research showed no hpta suppression while using a serm and low dose testosterone - 100mg per week
It also showed no hpta suppression with no serm use while using 25mg of testosterone enanthate per week. "
If this is correct then my HPTA should not be disrupted from my use of Test-E.

3. Triptorelin acetate should be utilized only after all other hormones have cleared the system. This makes sense from the standpoint that those other hormones (HCG, HMG, Test-E, Dbol) may be delivering negative feedback inhibition to my hypothalamic-pitutary axis. There is little to no research that I could find regarding simultaneous use of a GnRH agonist and gonadotropic hormone analogs. My hypothesis is that right now the my pituitary is unable to fully respond to stimulation by hypothalmic GnRH release. Administering triptorelin while continuing to use HCG/HMG will allow my pituitary to regain function while my gonads continue to recover. This is all purely experimental.

Thank you for all the advice and especially the criticisms. What we have created is a peer-reviewed clinical trial in the recovery of the HPTA after prolonged AAS usage. Please continue to critique as I want this thread to become a useful resource to others who are in my position and are frustrated with the lack of research on this topic.

Dopamin · Oct 20, 2012

maybe worth to read

Male Reproductive Dysfunction - S. C. Basu - Google Books

Male Infertility: Problems and Solutions - Google Books

petersouth · Oct 20, 2012

Clomid and everything way too high.

15mg every other day, got that from someone who saw a doc and got their T up close to 1000.

Of course it dropped back down to 5-600 after but hey.

rc771 · Oct 20, 2012

Im very interested in what you have going here because I fear that one day in the future I will be in your shoes...

Your plan seems well thought out though I think a couple principles you are basing it on are highly debatable but the only way we can find out is to give it a try in the real world.

Please keep us posted

Simpllyhuge · Oct 20, 2012

That is an extremely complicated PCT.

Are you on test now?

Simpllyhuge · Oct 20, 2012

I came off after years. Stop HCG and any exogenous hormones and run 50 mg clomid and 40 mg novla starting now. Then eventually run 25 mg of clomid for a long while.

sexyboy · Oct 20, 2012

hgh and igf help alot pct and will help raise free test through shbg so add that in there. Remeber if your test levels are still on low on after awhile might not be bad if your free test is high doing all the work.

SB

AnAboliKPiKe · Oct 21, 2012

@petersouth
What research do you have to validate your claim that I am running clomiphene too high? If you review the literature I cited you will find numerous studies utilizing 100mg clomiphene/day. I do need to decide if I want to continue running it @ 100mg/day or drop down to 50mg/day.

@Simpllyhuge
Yes I just took my last shot of 100mg Test-E on Thursday. I will be dropping down to 50mg Test-E for the next few weeks, then 25mg/week, then off completely.
What protocol did you use to restore HPTA function after your years of AAS usage? How do I know that if I quit HCG/HMG now that my gonads have fully recovered? The literature I have cited uses both for extended periods of time to successfully overcome hypogonadism.

AnAboliKPiKe · Oct 22, 2012

I ran out of clomiphene last Monday and just now got some more. I was feeling great but man have I felt shitty depressed for the last couple of days. Morning wood gone, all limp and shit if I try to jerk it, all around bad shit.

It seem that clomiphene plays some sort of integral role in the whole PCT process. I would have thought with everything else in my system I would be OK for a while without the clomiphene, but no such luck.

I've started back on 100mg clomiphene qd. I have also decided to drop the Test-E and Dbol from here on out. HCG has been adjusted to 500IU qd, HMG @ 7.5IU qd, both delivered intramuscularly.

I have decided to administer the triptorelin intravenously based on a study I read describing the benefits of IV administration over IM and SQ. Who knows if it will actually make a difference but it's worth a shot.

I'll keep you guys posted.

Swifto · Oct 22, 2012

Your not going to restore the HPTA to endogenous function on Test Enan and Dbol.

You need to come off of them.

That dose of HCG is a joke as well. 1000-1,500ius 2x is plenty with Tamoxifen and Toremifene.

I cant help but think you've got this all back to front. If your on HRT, stay on the TE, drop the Dbol, control estrogen and run HCG at 1,500ius for 6-7 shots at 2-3x week, no more due to the refractory peroid of the leydig cells.

Then come OFF and run a SERM treatment, with an AI if your estrogen dominant.

Swifto · Oct 22, 2012

AnAboliKPiKe said:
I ran out of clomiphene last Monday and just now got some more. I was feeling great but man have I felt shitty depressed for the last couple of days. Morning wood gone, all limp and shit if I try to jerk it, all around bad shit.

It seem that clomiphene plays some sort of integral role in the whole PCT process. I would have thought with everything else in my system I would be OK for a while without the clomiphene, but no such luck.

I've started back on 100mg clomiphene qd. I have also decided to drop the Test-E and Dbol from here on out. HCG has been adjusted to 500IU qd, HMG @ 7.5IU qd, both delivered intramuscularly.

I have decided to administer the triptorelin intravenously based on a study I read describing the benefits of IV administration over IM and SQ. Who knows if it will actually make a difference but it's worth a shot.

I'll keep you guys posted.