Collagen synthesis and joint health.

[lmt183]

Me and a number of my “high mileage” lifting buddies are struggling with a number of nagging injuries (like everyone else), and this has got me thinking about collagen synthesis. I know testosterone lowers it. Growth hormone can up it. Regarding other anabolics, I was under the impression that deca and even eq could help up it, but based on what little research I did— this is just a bunch of bro science stemming from Dan Duchaines book. Much literature does tout stanolozol as having positive effects on collagen synthesis. My personal experience mirrors what seems common with others. Dry, achy joints. So I guess my question is: will winstrol ultimately help my joints , and what else can I take (besides gh) to help promote any kind of joint health and recovery?

 

[Siciliannj]

I don’t know about deca promotion synthesis but I do know deca does help lubricate your joints I know a ton of people who take it at a therapeutic dose just for that reason/relief. Downside is when you stop all that pain relief goes away and if you overstrain while on it, it can make things worst

 

[gungalunga]

No.....winstrol will not help your joints.....at all.....unless you are into pain.

 

[suppdude]

Great Lakes hydrolyzed collagen

 

[Fa Seeshus]

Dialing in the actual correct amount of AI to use has been a big one for me. For example with time you need less exemestane, so people who don't adjust the dose often completely floor estrogen and dry out their joints.

Letrozole was the worst on my joints, while raloxifene (a SERM) actually seems to help them some... But it lowers your igf1 and messes with SHBG so might effect gains.

 

[Kaladryn]

Increased collagen synthesis is always going to be type III (immature) collagen fibers and tendons that are repaired with type III fibers will be extremely prone to tendinopathy. Basically, tendon repair happens very slowly because it has to, type III fibers need time and tension to turn into type I fibers.

You get things like tendinitis because the tendon becomes too inflexible (not type I fibers) from collagen syntdhesis. This is why drugs like winny that have been shown in studies to increase collagen synthesis, actually make your joints hurt. I speculate very short runs of AAS known for collagen synthesis may be effective.

 

[dros]

HGH is the best for this

Several studies on collagen synthesis and bone strenghtening from HGH

I believe there was a study on 5iu´s a day (on elderly might I add) which increased their collagen synthesis by 270%.

There is a reason why all athletes at the highest levels take hgh in large amounts of dosages (especially when off-season and quick healing)

 

[Baxo]

YES DECA helps a lot with joints
YES STANOZOLOL fucks joints (dry them)
YES anti-e fucks joints (estrogen is good for joints)

Things to help with joint pain

- Deca
- Avoid stano
- Avoid anti-e
- Focus in the warm up and progressive loads, like 4 warm up sets to the aching joint
- Hydro collagen

I got elbow (olechranon) tendinopathy... it never gets healed. I still have hope on some compounds that I'd like to try, like:

- BPC157
- TB500
- Acumpunture

 

[someday]

Great Lakes hydrolyzed collagen

You may want to check into that a bit further. I used that product for awhile when my joints were killing me after seeing Dante recommend type 2 collagen as the only product he had seen with any real studies showing any regeneration of joints, which as I believe Got Game often mentions, is practically impossible. So I went back to the site after using it awhile and not really feeling any improvement to make sure I had bought type 2, and couldn't find anything saying one way or the other. I actually called them and asked them...it's not type 2. Now I am not saying that product doesn't have any benefits, but you may want to research it a bit more. Now the GH on the other hand over the past half a year or so has made a major improvement in nearly everything save for the elbow tendinitis I have had since my early 30's, so I suspect that is more of a "need surgery at this point" issue than anything else.

At 50 yrs old now I am way past the things that help by masking the underlying issue (like Deca, advil, etc.) and only care about the stuff that truly heals or helps prolong my lifting hobby. That benefit of GH alone is well worth the price of admission IMO as nothing holds me back more nowadays than nagging injuries or aches and pains.

 

[buck]

Undenatured type II collagen is what I have always read is what works the best. Maybe some other types but i have not seen the info to support that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015808/

 

[LK3]

I don’t know about deca promotion synthesis but I do know deca does help lubricate your joints I know a ton of people who take it at a therapeutic dose just for that reason/relief. Downside is when you stop all that pain relief goes away and if you overstrain while on it, it can make things worst

while analogies are great astroglide is far better "lubracant" then deca.
lol

op, sadly we have no good answers to this. there are several good posts on it with solid info from some real sciencey bros like gotgame.

nandrolones yes can mask the pain, no doubt about it but make no mistake, its just masking the pain.

all of the drugs that potentially "promote" collagen sythesis like kal states promote short brittle growth which is actually counterproductive as it is more prone to injury.

there is not one bit of proof that any sup helps to reverse damage. i love the idea of taking colagen but i dont think the reality pans out. even curcumin is just acting as an antiinflamitory and not helping to rebuild or repair.

for sure test fucks us up, even trt doses, so this is an area that should be of interest to all, but right now no good answers.:lightbulb:

 

[Kaladryn]

YES DECA helps a lot with joints
YES STANOZOLOL fucks joints (dry them)
YES anti-e fucks joints (estrogen is good for joints)

Things to help with joint pain

- Deca
- Avoid stano
- Avoid anti-e
- Focus in the warm up and progressive loads, like 4 warm up sets to the aching joint
- Hydro collagen

I got elbow (olechranon) tendinopathy... it never gets healed. I still have hope on some compounds that I'd like to try, like:

- BPC157
- TB500
- Acumpunture

Deca may make joints feel good, but actually, just mask damage or pain. Winny may actually repair joints but make them hurt. Your tendinopathy is a combination of tendinitis that is aggravated by tension and movement and tendinosis that is healed by tension, that is why it never goes away. You can do it if you get the right combination of tension and strengthening without aggravating. Injuries that are counterintuitive in some way are the hardest to cure. Most are. With the muscular issues, it's usually the "opposing area" from the where the issue is and "neurological not muscular." Retrain the neurological patterns of contraction for the opposing muscle/area, problem fixed.

Undenatured type II collagen is what I have always read is what works the best. Maybe some other types but i have not seen the info to support that.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015808/

Healthy tendons are made up of type I and repaired by type III, I don't know if supplemental type II would be effective, whatever the case, repaired tendons are more delicate at least temporarily.

while analogies are great astroglide is far better "lubracant" then deca.
lol

op, sadly we have no good answers to this. there are several good posts on it with solid info from some real sciencey bros like gotgame.

nandrolones yes can mask the pain, no doubt about it but make no mistake, its just masking the pain.

all of the drugs that potentially "promote" collagen sythesis like kal states promote short brittle growth which is actually counterproductive as it is more prone to injury.

there is not one bit of proof that any sup helps to reverse damage. i love the idea of taking colagen but i dont think the reality pans out. even curcumin is just acting as an antiinflamitory and not helping to rebuild or repair.

for sure test fucks us up, even trt doses, so this is an area that should be of interest to all, but right now no good answers.:lightbulb:

All awesome info, although I would say that low T may reduce collagen synthesis, when I had my biceps tendon re-attached, my surgeon told me that TRT would speed healing, he was one of the team doctors for the raiders and sharks too, did a great job on my biceps.

 

[Elvia1023]

I now believe consuming collagen is pretty much a waste... well it is in regards to helping joints. This is all because it's taken in orally so is processed just like beef, chicken and whey would be. Although those 3 have a much better amino acid profile so are superior. All that is happening when you take in collagen is it's broken down into it's original amino acids as they can't be absorbed otherwise. I would recommend a good whey isolate over a collagen product.

 

[Smack]

i love the idea of taking colagen but i dont think the reality pans out.

Pretty sure Dante posted a study showing 10g collagen a day increased cartilage in the elderly. For us I'd imagine it would be even better.

 

[FrancisK]

Pretty sure Dante posted a study showing 10g collagen a day increased cartilage in the elderly. For us I'd imagine it would be even better.

I would argue the opposite for us it would be less, supplementation would have more impact on an elderly body as it is more deficient. Especially less if the study was calculated by percentage. Similar to what GH does for an older or sick person vs a young healthy person, much less of an impact.

 

[Smack]

I would argue the opposite for us it would be less, supplementation would have more impact on an elderly body as it is more deficient. Especially less if the study was calculated by percentage. Similar to what GH does for an older or sick person vs a young healthy person, much less of an impact.

Fair. I was thinking along the lines of our bodies having better capabilities to repair. So we could get an extra % of use out of collagen.

At the end of the day Dante said it and does it so thats good enough for me

 

[Elvia1023]

There are definitely benefits in ingesting different forms of collagen I just don't think it's anything special. I have read a few studies were hydrolyzed collagen significantly improved bone mineral density (usually done on the elderly). But even the likes of melotonin has been shown to reduce oxidative stress on bone cells and it improves bone formation and mass. Although if collagen helps you then great and if anyone hasn't tried it see for yourself. See below for 2 good links.

Collagen supplementation as a complementary therapy for the prevention and treatment of osteoporosis and osteoarthritis: a systematic review

Are Collagen Supplements Helpful for Arthritis? - Living With Arthritis

 

[GtnFkD]

Human Growth Hormone (HGH) is important for recovery and repair as it stimulates cell growth and cell regeneration. Research at Chang Gung University in Taiwan found that BPC-157 enhanced the healing properties of growth hormone. [3]

It has a positive effect on connective tissue as it is known to speed up the growth and spread of fibroblasts, which are found in connective tissue and play an integral role in the formation of collagen. Research has shown that BPC 157 is effective at collagen reformation following surgery. [10]

Research has also shown that BPC-157 can both increase the rate and the frequency of recovery from damage to tendons [11] and ligaments [12], which are the most damaged tissues in the body as a result of intense training over prolonged periods of time.

 

[Elvia1023]

Human Growth Hormone (HGH) is important for recovery and repair as it stimulates cell growth and cell regeneration. Research at Chang Gung University in Taiwan found that BPC-157 enhanced the healing properties of growth hormone. [3]

It has a positive effect on connective tissue as it is known to speed up the growth and spread of fibroblasts, which are found in connective tissue and play an integral role in the formation of collagen. Research has shown that BPC 157 is effective at collagen reformation following surgery. [10]

Research has also shown that BPC-157 can both increase the rate and the frequency of recovery from damage to tendons [11] and ligaments [12], which are the most damaged tissues in the body as a result of intense training over prolonged periods of time.

BPC-157 is amazing. Problem is there seems to be a lot of fake products around.

 

[Brickshthouse79]

BPC-157 is amazing. Problem is there seems to be a lot of fake products around.

I just bought some on ebay, probably a bad decision on my part. Ive been using it 3 days and I've noticed that it burns badly when pinned (subq) and tonight I had some anxiety out of nowhere. I dont want to give up on it yet, but if the anxiety/panic continues ill toss it in the trash.