Progressive overload and cruising

[IronLion2]

I've been more focused the past 6-8 months on overload, not necessarily just the load but TUT, applied tension, and rep tempo. But not matter what I lose a sold chunk of my progress with every mini cut/cruise and it takes the first 2-6 weeks just to get back to where I ended the last blast. How is it that so many are able to never take a step backwards? Do they never cruise? When they diet do they just blast harder to compensate for the change in caloric intake?

 

[Delt123]

I barely notice a drop because I keep eating peak caloriees of my bulk/close to that amount. I also dont do very big cycles so the drop isn't that big too.

Overload on a cruise is definitely 'fight' but I'm Ok with that. I'd never cut on a cruise because I've seen many people going in circles with bulking and cutting without actually gaining something. IF i'd cut on a cruise, it would be a couple of pounds but never 10lbs+

 

[TheOtherOne55]

I've been more focused the past 6-8 months on overload, not necessarily just the load but TUT, applied tension, and rep tempo. But not matter what I lose a sold chunk of my progress with every mini cut/cruise and it takes the first 2-6 weeks just to get back to where I ended the last blast. How is it that so many are able to never take a step backwards? Do they never cruise? When they diet do they just blast harder to compensate for the change in caloric intake?

What are your mini cuts and cruises look like calorie-wise?

I have been really focusing on progressive overload for a couple years now and IMO cruising is relatively easy. And a mini cut just takes some planning. All the info I've ever used for this has strictly been from Scott Stevenson and Jordan Peters.

For instance, when I cruise I don't drop down my calories. I try to hover at maintenance. And even then, you should be able to match your reps or weight your were using in the given exercises. As far as a mini cut, IMO you have to lower the volume somewhat. If you were doing 2 hard sets, 1 at 6-10 the other at 11-15 then you need to cut down to one set. Your recovery is compromised so you have to figure this out personally. Learned this 100% from Scott and Jordan.

Also, I'd make SUUUURE you are giving yourself enough time in your exercise rotations. The guys who turn to me and say, "ugh, my bench is going down" are the ones who only have 2 rotations. Therefore, they are only getting a week or so break before they go back to the same exercise. IMO, 3-4 rotations is great. You bench one week, incline the next, Hammer Strength Decline another. By the time you get BACK to your bench, it's been 3 weeks. If you are not progressing or at least staying the same in your bench, you are too low on cals or have too much volume and need to adjust accordingly.

 

[IronLion2]

What are your mini cuts and cruises look like calorie-wise?

I have been really focusing on progressive overload for a couple years now and IMO cruising is relatively easy. And a mini cut just takes some planning. All the info I've ever used for this has strictly been from Scott Stevenson and Jordan Peters.

For instance, when I cruise I don't drop down my calories. I try to hover at maintenance. And even then, you should be able to match your reps or weight your were using in the given exercises. As far as a mini cut, IMO you have to lower the volume somewhat. If you were doing 2 hard sets, 1 at 6-10 the other at 11-15 then you need to cut down to one set. Your recovery is compromised so you have to figure this out personally. Learned this 100% from Scott and Jordan.

Also, I'd make SUUUURE you are giving yourself enough time in your exercise rotations. The guys who turn to me and say, "ugh, my bench is going down" are the ones who only have 2 rotations. Therefore, they are only getting a week or so break before they go back to the same exercise. IMO, 3-4 rotations is great. You bench one week, incline the next, Hammer Strength Decline another. By the time you get BACK to your bench, it's been 3 weeks. If you are not progressing or at least staying the same in your bench, you are too low on cals or have too much volume and need to adjust accordingly.

100% agree on the rotations, I use a conjugate mentality so usually it's 2-3 weeks before I do the same variation of a compound movement, assistance work is less of a rotation.

Calorie wise I dont go low but I do use DNP more times than not when cruising. My last cruise was 250 test/200 NPP, around 2500kcal at least, and a few walks a day.

I heard the great Flex Wheeler talk about cruising as your real weight, what you own and not what the AAS own, so for me I do these cruises to see "what I actually built" during the last blast but maybe thats my issue? I'm thinking i'm unintentionally "deloading" and cutting too many carbs.

I just find it odd guys like Dusty (who I follow like a hawk) never take steps backwards. I suppose it has a lot to do with muscle maturity and more PEDS (not AAS) than what I use which helps retain more.

 

[Kaladryn]

I think taking steps backward is one of the most important things to do well. Everyone is so focused on getting stronger, but you can't always get stronger, sometimes you have to get weaker, and knowing how to do that well isn't as easy as it seems. So when I know my strength is not increasing or even decreasing, I will often push the muscle even harder than usual, but I will use less weight, better form, more focus on getting stress exactly where I want, etc. I lose some strength but size I hold onto best this way, if I struggled my hardest to hold onto my strength and used sloppy form to do so, I wouldn't hang onto my size as well.

And the good part comes when you go back to a strength increasing period, now you have more room to increase, more progressive resistance to build up to, and more growth to be had. Soon you will be as strong as before but with better form, better mind-muscle connections, more accurate contractions, and you will be bigger than before at that same strength.

 

[need4tren]

Just my 2 cents but when I cruise I refuse to drop the weights down. I stick with the same max weight and decrease volume a lot. Instead of doing maybe 10 working sets for say chest I’ll do maybe 3. But I always fight the log book even when in prep. I just throw more drugs in.

I’m not gonna build muscle in a cruise so I may aswell try and get as strong as possible

 

[danieltx]

A few thoughts here:

Comparing yourself to guys like Dusty Hanshaw isn't fair to yourself. I think everyone would agree that while Hanshaw is no top tier pro, genetically he's still worlds above most of us here. It's similar to how we get deluded with our physiques by constantly analyzing the physiques of pro bodybuilders. Most of us look super impressive to everyday people, but we don't think so because our frame of reference is so different. Always remember that.

There should be a step back in cruising in all areas - strength, overall gym performance, muscle mass, leanness, etc. How much of a step back? I think that's dictated by your genetics and how disciplined you're willing to be with the non-drug factors when cruising - sleep, diet, training, etc.

I think the simplest way to take that step back while losing as little as possible is simply by chasing the log book. When I'm cruising or in the last 4-6 weeks of a hard diet, my goal with each workout is to just do exactly what I did the week before in terms of weights and reps. If gym performance stays relatively consistent while other factors change significantly, you shouldn't be taking that big a step back in terms of gains.

I don't think 2 - 6 weeks to get back to your previous levels when blasting again is that crazy. Us bodybuilders are notoriously impatient, but this is an extremely long-term game. As long as you're able to up your peak training weights / reps / whatever you measure at the height of your next blast, you should have upped your trough for your next cruise. Continuing to up those peaks and troughs over the years is how you get huge and build an impressive physique. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Ronnie Coleman.

 

[Kaladryn]

Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Ronnie Coleman.

lol

 

[IronLion2]

I think taking steps backward is one of the most important things to do well. Everyone is so focused on getting stronger, but you can't always get stronger, sometimes you have to get weaker, and knowing how to do that well isn't as easy as it seems. So when I know my strength is not increasing or even decreasing, I will often push the muscle even harder than usual, but I will use less weight, better form, more focus on getting stress exactly where I want, etc. I lose some strength but size I hold onto best this way, if I struggled my hardest to hold onto my strength and used sloppy form to do so, I wouldn't hang onto my size as well.

And the good part comes when you go back to a strength increasing period, now you have more room to increase, more progressive resistance to build up to, and more growth to be had. Soon you will be as strong as before but with better form, better mind-muscle connections, more accurate contractions, and you will be bigger than before at that same strength.

A few thoughts here:

Comparing yourself to guys like Dusty Hanshaw isn't fair to yourself. I think everyone would agree that while Hanshaw is no top tier pro, genetically he's still worlds above most of us here. It's similar to how we get deluded with our physiques by constantly analyzing the physiques of pro bodybuilders. Most of us look super impressive to everyday people, but we don't think so because our frame of reference is so different. Always remember that.

There should be a step back in cruising in all areas - strength, overall gym performance, muscle mass, leanness, etc. How much of a step back? I think that's dictated by your genetics and how disciplined you're willing to be with the non-drug factors when cruising - sleep, diet, training, etc.

I think the simplest way to take that step back while losing as little as possible is simply by chasing the log book. When I'm cruising or in the last 4-6 weeks of a hard diet, my goal with each workout is to just do exactly what I did the week before in terms of weights and reps. If gym performance stays relatively consistent while other factors change significantly, you shouldn't be taking that big a step back in terms of gains.

I don't think 2 - 6 weeks to get back to your previous levels when blasting again is that crazy. Us bodybuilders are notoriously impatient, but this is an extremely long-term game. As long as you're able to up your peak training weights / reps / whatever you measure at the height of your next blast, you should have upped your trough for your next cruise. Continuing to up those peaks and troughs over the years is how you get huge and build an impressive physique. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Ronnie Coleman.

these are good points, im being too critical of myself. I was just using dusty as an example as i've switched over to DC and he's the most active of the DC disciples.

I need to just cruise next time without DNP and just see the difference of performance I retain. Thats too big of a variable to assess properly.

 

[need4tren]

A few thoughts here:

Comparing yourself to guys like Dusty Hanshaw isn't fair to yourself. I think everyone would agree that while Hanshaw is no top tier pro, genetically he's still worlds above most of us here. It's similar to how we get deluded with our physiques by constantly analyzing the physiques of pro bodybuilders. Most of us look super impressive to everyday people, but we don't think so because our frame of reference is so different. Always remember that.

There should be a step back in cruising in all areas - strength, overall gym performance, muscle mass, leanness, etc. How much of a step back? I think that's dictated by your genetics and how disciplined you're willing to be with the non-drug factors when cruising - sleep, diet, training, etc.

I think the simplest way to take that step back while losing as little as possible is simply by chasing the log book. When I'm cruising or in the last 4-6 weeks of a hard diet, my goal with each workout is to just do exactly what I did the week before in terms of weights and reps. If gym performance stays relatively consistent while other factors change significantly, you shouldn't be taking that big a step back in terms of gains.

I don't think 2 - 6 weeks to get back to your previous levels when blasting again is that crazy. Us bodybuilders are notoriously impatient, but this is an extremely long-term game. As long as you're able to up your peak training weights / reps / whatever you measure at the height of your next blast, you should have upped your trough for your next cruise. Continuing to up those peaks and troughs over the years is how you get huge and build an impressive physique. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Ronnie Coleman.

I would have to completely disagree with you on the dusty part. It’s taken dusty 25 years to achieve what he has. It’s been relentless hard work. If you put in the work for 25 years you should be as strong and as big as he is. 5-7 pounds a muscle a year is not insane. It’s consistent. Train hard, train heavy and results will come no matter your genetics.

 

[Kaladryn]

I would have to completely disagree with you on the dusty part. It’s taken dusty 25 years to achieve what he has. It’s been relentless hard work. If you put in the work for 25 years you should be as strong and as big as he is. 5-7 pounds a muscle a year is not insane. It’s consistent. Train hard, train heavy and results will come no matter your genetics.

I wish this was true but I couldn't disagree more, the size people reach over time, even if they are perfect in every aspect of their program, is majorly limited by their individual genetics, more than any other factor.

 

[IronLion2]

I wish this was true but I couldn't disagree more, the size people reach over time, even if they are perfect in every aspect of their program, is majorly limited by their individual genetics, more than any other factor.

off topic but genetics state;

-I cant change my muscle insertion points
-I cant change my bone structure
-I cant (or cant make much of a change to) change the shape of my muscles
-I cant change my response to AAS

I dont think its warranted though how much size I can or cannot put on. Yes, if someone has better shape of say his quads than mine and we both put on 10lbs of LBM on our quads the other persons will look more impressive. But again, there is really nothing to make us believer that there is a limit to the LBM we put on.

 

[need4tren]

off topic but genetics state;

-I cant change my muscle insertion points
-I cant change my bone structure
-I cant (or cant make much of a change to) change the shape of my muscles
-I cant change my response to AAS

I dont think its warranted though how much size I can or cannot put on. Yes, if someone has better shape of say his quads than mine and we both put on 10lbs of LBM on our quads the other persons will look more impressive. But again, there is really nothing to make us believer that there is a limit to the LBM we put on.

This 100%, another genetic factor is freak factor. Some guys can build insanely huge physiques insanely fast. But look at everyone who has. There careers are short lived. (Dallas,Justin Compton, Trey Brewer is just to name a couple) we will see many more.

Your body can always get bigger. No genetic limits on that, where most people quit is the diet. It takes a ton of food. And for some more drugs. If Ron partlow could turn pro anyone can. But 60g of protein and 100g of carbs each meal isn’t gonna do it. Nathan de asha for instance eats a meal and then has a shake with prot carbs and fats after every meal,I didn’t ask what macros went in to these shakes or meals (Not sure if he still does this was a few years ago when he was training out of Kuwait he came and did a guest posing down here) he did his own diet back then too so it wasn’t what they had him do.

Most guys just can’t push there body’s as hard. Which is why they arnt professionals

 

[IronLion2]

Just to keep this discussion somewhat alive, I think my problem is I need a kickstarter to help mitigate some of the loss as quickly as possible. The past two blasts have all been longer esters.

 

[homonunculus]

I've been more focused the past 6-8 months on overload, not necessarily just the load but TUT, applied tension, and rep tempo. But not matter what I lose a sold chunk of my progress with every mini cut/cruise and it takes the first 2-6 weeks just to get back to where I ended the last blast. How is it that so many are able to never take a step backwards? Do they never cruise? When they diet do they just blast harder to compensate for the change in caloric intake?

I'm reading your post here and I surmising this. (Tell me what I'm missing here... )

• 6-8 MONTHS of progress.

• Mini-Cut/ Cruise - HOW LONG IS THIS?... And how much body fat are you losing?... Calorie wise I dont go low but I do use DNP more times than not when cruising. My last cruise was 250 test/200 NPP, around 2500kcal at least, and a few walks a day.

• 2-6 weeks to "back to where you ended the last blast".... Do you mean strength wise, here, which is a good surrogate for muscle mass?...


If your cruises / cuts are longer than the 2-6 weeks to get back any lost size and strength and you're coming out ahead in terms of fat (leaner after this time to get back to previous size / strength), this is great. Keep doing this and you're on the right track.

If you're wanting to not lose ANY size / strength on the diet / cut, that's maybe not possible, but if you're taking:

2 steps forward
1 step back

and doing this repeatedly... I don't see an issue there, man!

(Again, am I missing something?...)

-S

 

[IronLion2]

I'm reading your post here and I surmising this. (Tell me what I'm missing here... )

• 6-8 MONTHS of progress.

• Mini-Cut/ Cruise - HOW LONG IS THIS?... And how much body fat are you losing?... Calorie wise I dont go low but I do use DNP more times than not when cruising. My last cruise was 250 test/200 NPP, around 2500kcal at least, and a few walks a day.

• 2-6 weeks to "back to where you ended the last blast".... Do you mean strength wise, here, which is a good surrogate for muscle mass?...


If your cruises / cuts are longer than the 2-6 weeks to get back any lost size and strength and you're coming out ahead in terms of fat (leaner after this time to get back to previous size / strength), this is great. Keep doing this and you're on the right track.

If you're wanting to not lose ANY size / strength on the diet / cut, that's maybe not possible, but if you're taking:

2 steps forward
1 step back

and doing this repeatedly... I don't see an issue there, man!

(Again, am I missing something?...)

-S

Dr. S, big fan, I literally just watched some of your videos with EliteFTS.

No you summarized it well, It was around a 20 week (mild) blast and just short of a 4 week cruise with DNP. I did drop some pretty serious weight around 20+ lbs which is a mix of the DNP melting off the BF and the glycogen drop.

Thanks for the encouragement, like I said i'm just being hard on myself. Only been on AAS for a short time and still young, I just have a lot of desire to grow and always making sure I have all my bases covered.

 

[homonunculus]

Dr. S, big fan, I literally just watched some of your videos with EliteFTS.

No you summarized it well, It was around a 20 week (mild) blast and just short of a 4 week cruise with DNP. I did drop some pretty serious weight around 20+ lbs which is a mix of the DNP melting off the BF and the glycogen drop.

Thanks for the encouragement, like I said i'm just being hard on myself. Only been on AAS for a short time and still young, I just have a lot of desire to grow and always making sure I have all my bases covered.

Sounds like you just pushed a bit too hard with that DNP, etc.

(Wow, those vids are getting a bit old now!)

-S