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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 12:12 AM
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plaque

i also heard that cocaa and walnuts help . If u are talking about inflammation , thats another ball game.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Truck View Post
Hey Busa,

I welcome disagreement. I don't claim to know everything about everything.

But if you believe that grain consumption can create inflammation of the vascular system, then every member of this board is doomed.

Some people with GI issues may have inflammation problems from
grain consumption, I get that. But not vascular inflammation.

And who doesn't eat rice, oats, quinoa, Ezekiel, pasta, millet, flax, etc x 1,000?

Remember the OP was asking about plaque buildup.
Plaque buildup is the main culprit to CHD.

Grains in no way, shape or form contribute to plaque buildup.
They are virtually cholesterol free.

They are carbohydrates, so for people who are diabetic, their intake
needs to be monitored because high blood sugar can cause issues
associated with CHD.

Think of this truth. Before many Asian cultures were introduced to animal
consumption before the turn of the century, plaque buildup was essentially
non-existent. People didn't die from CHD in those days and all they ate were
grains.

What hopefully makes sense and some will agree with is that any percent
Vegan is better than no percent Vegan.

We, (me included) are victims of marketing thinking we need 300+ grams of protein ED to grow muscle.

-MT
I would love an educated conversation. My education is in cellular and molecular biology. I want to post some things that I have learned over the last few years in my field as soon as I get back. I think vegetables and fruits play a huge role in the prevention of the inflammatory
response.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 12:59 AM
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We have only been eating high grain diets for around 13,000 yrs. Grains cause a lot higher blood sugar than a normal "paleo" type diet. It's the oxidation of those sugars that is the biggest cause of inflammation in the body! Oxidation of low density cholesterol in the blood and damage to cellular walls that cause the atherosclerosis.

Circulation
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Muscle View Post
You definitely want to avoid grain fed beef whos omega 6 to omega 3 ratios are way off which is bad if you are trying to manage inflammation.


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Grain fed beef is definitely a problem for those exact reason. A cows natural diet is grass and grains cause the same problems with their systems.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 01:23 AM
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From the study above.

Hyperglycemia

extracellular environment.24 Experimental evidence supports the notion that hyperglycemia decreases endothelium-derived NO (Figure 1). When normal aortic rings are incubated in a hyperglycemic milieu, endothelium-dependent relaxation is impaired.25 Similarly, endothelium-dependent vasodilation is reduced in healthy subjects during hyperglycemic clamping.26 Hyperglycemia induces a series of cellular events that increase the production of reactive oxygen species (such as superoxide anion) that inactivate NO to form peroxynitrite.27,28 Hyperglycemia may initiate this process by increasing superoxide anion production via the mitochondrial electron transport chain.28 Superoxide anion then promotes a cascade of endothelial processes that engage increasing numbers of cellular elements to produce oxygen-derived free radicals. For example, superoxide anion activates protein kinase C (PKC),28 or visa versa, activation of PKC may contribute to superoxide generation.29,30 Activation of PKC by glucose has been implicated in the regulation and activation of membrane-associated NAD(P)H-dependent oxidases and subsequent production of superoxide anion.29 Indeed, the activity of NAD(P)H oxidase and levels of its protein subunits are increased in internal mammary arteries and saphenous veins of patients with diabetes.31 Peroxynitrite, resulting from the interaction of NO and superoxide anion, oxidizes the NOS co-factor tetrahydrobiopterin.32,33 This uncouples the enzyme, which then preferentially increases superoxide anion production over NO production.34,35 Hence, a cascade effect occurs that results in ever-increasing production of superoxide anion and inactivation of NO. Mitochondrial production of superoxide anion also increases intracellular production of advanced glycation end products (AGEs).28 These glycated proteins adversely affect cellular function both by affecting protein function and by activation of the receptor for AGEs (RAGE).36,37 AGEs, per se, increase production of oxygen-derived free radicals, and RAGE activation increases intracellular enzymatic superoxide oxide production.38–40 In addition, increased superoxide anion production activates the hexosamine pathway, which diminishes NOS activation by protein kinase Akt.41 These processes likely recruit extracellular xanthine oxidase, which further augments the oxidative stress.42 Hyperglycemia-induced oxidative stress also may increase levels of asymmetric dimethylarginine, a competitive antagonist of NOS, by impairing the ability of dimethylarginine dimethylaminohydrolase to metabolize asymmetric dimethylarginine.43 The concept that hyperglycemia-induced oxidative stress mediates endothelial dysfunction in patients with diabetes is supported by the observations that intra-arterial infusion of ascorbic acid, a water-soluble antioxidant capable of scavenging superoxide anion,44 restores endothelium-dependent vasodilation in healthy subjects exposed to a hyperglycemic clamp and in patients with type 1 or type 2 diabetesHyperglycemia also increases the production of the lipid second messenger diacylglycerol, which causes the membrane translocation and activation of PKC.47,48 Activation of PKC inhibits the activity of the phosphatidylinositol 3 kinase pathway, thereby limiting activation of Akt kinase and subsequent phosphorylation of NOS, which results in less NO production. Diminished endothelium-dependent relaxation of rabbit aorta exposed to elevated glucose levels is restored by PKC inhibition.25 Administration of a PKCβ isoform inhibitor to healthy subjects prevents abnormal endothelium-dependent vasodilation caused by hyperglycemia, which confirms the contribution of PKC to endothelial dysfunction.49
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 01:26 AM
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Also from the study above.

Free Fatty Acid Liberation and Endothelial Function

Circulating levels of free fatty acids are elevated in diabetes because of their excess liberation from adipose tissue and diminished uptake by skeletal muscle.50–52 Free fatty acids may impair endothelial function through several mechanisms, including increased production of oxygen-derived free radicals, activation of PKC, and exacerbation of dyslipidemia.53–55 Infusion of free fatty acids reduces endothelium-dependent vasodilation in animal models and in humans in vivo.56 Co-infusion of the antioxidant ascorbic acid improves endothelium-dependent vasodilation in humans treated with free fatty acids, which indicates that oxidative stress mediates the abnormality.57 Elevation of free fatty acid concentrations activate PKC and decrease insulin receptor substrate-1–associated phosphatidylinosital-3 kinase activity.53,58 These effects on signal transduction may decrease NOS activity as discussed above.

The liver responds to free fatty acid flux by increasing very-low-density lipoprotein production and cholesteryl ester synthesis.59 This increased production of triglyceride-rich proteins and the diminished clearance by lipoprotein lipase results in hypertriglyceridemia, which is typically observed in diabetes.60 Elevated triglyceride concentrations lower HDL by promoting cholesterol transport from HDL to very-low-density lipoprotein.59 These abnormalities change LDL morphology, increasing the amount of the more atherogenic, small, dense LDL.61,62 Both hypertriglyceridemia and low HDL have been associated with endothelial dysfunction.63,64
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 01:37 AM
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D-ribose improves heart ejection/fraction ratio. Very helpful with congestive heart failure. My best friend died from this due to stacking AAS with speed for many years.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Truck View Post

Grains in no way, shape or form contribute to plaque buildup.
They are virtually cholesterol free.



-MT
Brother,the idea that cholesterol consumption has a large influence on blood cholesterol levels has been scientifically tossed out of the window.There are plenty of studies out there showing this.
Here's a good one. Advances Nutrition | Mobile
Now maybe insane amounts if cholesterol consumed changes things ( like some of us do)... But who knows..
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
Brother,the idea that cholesterol consumption has a large influence on blood cholesterol levels has been scientifically tossed out of the window.There are plenty of studies out there showing this.
Here's a good one. Advances Nutrition | Mobile
Now maybe insane amounts if cholesterol consumed changes things ( like some of us do)... But who knows..
I'm glad u brought this up because the media and our gov have spouted off so much misinformation that people don't know what to believe. I mean we are one of the biggest grain producers in the world, what would happen if people knew this stuff.

Last edited by Busamuscle; 10-23-2014 at 01:55 AM.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Truck;1997704


Grains in no way, shape or form contribute to plaque buildup.
They are virtually cholesterol free.

[SIZE="1";0
-MT[/SIZE]
Incorrect, and I'll tell you why.
Excessive grain intake causes a chronic inflammatory response in certain people(the vast majority of people,IMO) over prolonged periods of time.
When the blood vessels become inflamed, they become significantly more susceptible to having plaque and platelet adhsion as well as calcification and a slew of other things(as you most likely already know). I could turn this into 10 paragraphs explaining why, but I'm not going to....let's keep it simple.

You can learn this very basic info I just told you in any advanced nursing,medical,or nutrition program; it is widely available in the health community.

EDIT: Just read what Busamuscle has been writing. He's hitting the hammer on the nail.

Last edited by TrinityD; 10-23-2014 at 02:07 AM.
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 02:05 AM
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Clinical Diabetes | Mobile

"Oxidative stress may also play an important role in cellular injury from hyperglycemia. High glucose levels can stimulate free radical production and reactive oxygen species formation. Animal studies have suggested that treatment with antioxidants, such as vitamin E, may attenuate some vascular dysfunction associated with diabetes, but treatment with antioxidants has not yet been shown to alter the development or progression of retinopathy or other microvascular complications of diabetes."

"The central pathological mechanism in macrovascular disease is the process of atherosclerosis, which leads to narrowing of arterial walls throughout the body. Atherosclerosis is thought to result from chronic inflammation and injury to the arterial wall in the peripheral or coronary vascular system. In response to endothelial injury and inflammation, oxidized lipids from LDL particles accumulate in the endothelial wall of arteries. Angiotensin II may promote the oxidation of such particles. Monocytes then infiltrate the arterial wall and differentiate into macrophages, which accumulate oxidized lipids to form foam cells. Once formed, foam cells stimulate macrophage proliferation and attraction of T-lymphocytes. T-lymphocytes, in turn, induce smooth muscle proliferation in the arterial walls and collagen accumulation. The net result of the process is the formation of a lipid-rich atherosclerotic lesion with a fibrous cap. Rupture of this lesion leads to acute vascular infarction."
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 02:20 AM
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I'm trying to contribute more to ProM. I have been here for almost ten yrs and haven't felt I could contribute much because there is so many educated and experienced members here. This is one subject I can contribute to.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 03:10 AM
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Busa and all members who posted there thoughts,
I appreciate everyone's comments and I put a high value
on science and scientific studies.

I am very familiar with the studies you posted.
But like every study ever done, there are opposing counter studies.
Same holds true with Vegan studies.

But let's stay focused on Nothuman's thread title:

Reversing heart hypertrophy/plaque: Can it be done?

Please don't interpret this as being boastful.
But from all the posts, unless I'm missing one, I am the only person
who has successfully done this (from the comments).

The reason I chimed in, was to reassure NH that it can be done.
Regardless of what the studies may say.
Real life trumps science in many cases.

I am anal about getting blood work every 90 days, evaluating the numbers,
and understanding the relationships which coexist between them.

I also get a Nuclear Stress Test done every April. "Amazing" is the word my cardiologist used this time.

Everything clearly supports my lifestyle.

With that, I encourage NH to not necessarily eliminate his GFB but just to
keep it in check. Too much of anything is not a good thing .

Peace,

-MT
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothuman View Post
It's very hard to find data on this. Has anyone ever successfully been able to do this? And I'm not talking about LVH here.
Yes, reversal is possible. Mine went down in a one year period. No supplements at all and off AAS, no gh or peptides. Completely natural. I ate a low fat low carb diet the first 6 months due to fat gain after coming off test. Other than that my diet is normal. I eat red meat, and quite often, grains, pretty much no restrictions. Never had a plaque problem. Last year I had a coronary calcium test which came back 0% (I'm 32) and that was after 10 years of AAS and fat steaks every day. So I guess it is mostly genetic. I saw top cardiologists regarding my hypertrophy and they all emphasised on going 100% clean. It was a hard switch since I was so used to supplements but it worked. Actually now I have even have a big doubt in supplements since I actually do better without them.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 03:24 AM
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Mini Truck, I definitely think it can help going to a diet similar to yours. I would like to know more about the benefits you're getting and any negatives u can share.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busamuscle View Post
Mini Truck, I definitely think it can help going to a diet similar to yours. I would like to know more about the benefits you're getting and any negatives u can share.

I second this as health is something we cant be lazy with, especially with the amounts of aas most use....


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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Truck View Post
NH,



You're thread caught my eye.



But what you will need to do goes against the grain of what our culture

is embedded in. It is not easy and it requires a shift in your mindset.



But yes, it can be done. I did it and so can you.



Become a Vegan. No animal or animal byproducts at all.

Or, eliminate the majority of them.



Will this decrease some muscle mass? Probably.



But what's more important?



-MT

So can one eat "paleo" and have the same effect? Or is vegan different than paleo!?


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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 03:53 AM
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Look up chelation therapy!

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 04:05 AM
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Sure.
Honestly, it was a very difficult decision. I had been a carnivore for the majority of my life.

I can remember the day of I emptied the freezer and frig and
made a trip to the local homeless shelter. They were very happy.

It was more of a mental struggle than a physical one.
But at that time, I didn't have much choice.

After almost 4 years of being 100% Vegan without giving into the
frequent temptations, following my heart scan this April I began including
a small amount of animal back in. Some wild caught fish, some hormone free
chicken, some cage free eggs and some egg whites. Beef just doesn't sit well with me.

Not every day, but usually EOD I'll eat some animal just with one meal.

The first benefit I noticed just took 3 weeks. I had blood work scheduled
for then. Low and behold, my cholesterol has been no more than 105 since that time. My LDL is crazy low. My HDL is always a work in progress.

I noticed an improvement in my eyesight. Such that it required a change in
my lens prescription. I only now need glasses for distance.

Huge improvement in my circulation, especially noticeable in my feet.

That bloated, full, often gassy feeling I had after meals.......gone.

No GI issues, better bowel movements and just a better feeling of
overall well being.

I know a Vegan friend who had embarrassing ED issues, even with several
prescription trials. He and his wife just smile and give me a thumbs up when we see each other.

Did I sacrifice some muscle loss? Yes I did.
But you do what you have to when you have to.

As crazy as it may sound, with just the small amount of animal
I began consuming since April, I have made noticeable improvements.
Most of my protein comes from EAA's and although it's difficult to
put an exact number on it, I'm guessing I consume around 100 grams/day.

I'm no Mass Monster. 5'4" `185 lbs, compete as a MW. I stay ~10% BF year round, and can still get down to <5% after all these years (have been competing since 1979).

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask anything.

-MT


Quote:
Originally Posted by Busamuscle View Post
Mini Truck, I definitely think it can help going to a diet similar to yours. I would like to know more about the benefits you're getting and any negatives u can share.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2014, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini Truck View Post
Sure.

Honestly, it was a very difficult decision. I had been a carnivore for the majority of my life.



I can remember the day of I emptied the freezer and frig and

made a trip to the local homeless shelter. They were very happy.



It was more of a mental struggle than a physical one.

But at that time, I didn't have much choice.



After almost 4 years of being 100% Vegan without giving into the

frequent temptations, following my heart scan this April I began including

a small amount of animal back in. Some wild caught fish, some hormone free

chicken, some cage free eggs and some egg whites. Beef just doesn't sit well with me.



Not every day, but usually EOD I'll eat some animal just with one meal.



The first benefit I noticed just took 3 weeks. I had blood work scheduled

for then. Low and behold, my cholesterol has been no more than 105 since that time. My LDL is crazy low. My HDL is always a work in progress.



I noticed an improvement in my eyesight. Such that it required a change in

my lens prescription. I only now need glasses for distance.



Huge improvement in my circulation, especially noticeable in my feet.



That bloated, full, often gassy feeling I had after meals.......gone.



No GI issues, better bowel movements and just a better feeling of

overall well being.



I know a Vegan friend who had embarrassing ED issues, even with several

prescription trials. He and his wife just smile and give me a thumbs up when we see each other.



Did I sacrifice some muscle loss? Yes I did.

But you do what you have to when you have to.



As crazy as it may sound, with just the small amount of animal

I began consuming since April, I have made noticeable improvements.

Most of my protein comes from EAA's and although it's difficult to

put an exact number on it, I'm guessing I consume around 100 grams/day.



I'm no Mass Monster. 5'4" `185 lbs, compete as a MW. I stay ~10% BF year round, and can still get down to <5% after all these years (have been competing since 1979).



Hope this helps. Feel free to ask anything.



-MT

Whats a typical day of eating look like for u? And did it seem as tho u needed to increase the amounts or frequency? Once animal stuff was out?


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