Going to the endo....Free test .2

GaJoe · Oct 7, 2011

Competed back in august...last test prop admin. was on the 13th. After the meet I went through a few weeks of pct. Mid September, liver values and hemaglobin was elevated and so was bun/creatinine levels which was expected. Test levels were 177. Used some liv detox, increased water intake, backed off protein and went to moderate intensity training 4 times a week....Had my blood worked yesterday...today Dr. called w/ results...kidney, liver, hemaglobin all fine.....test has fallen to 16

and free test to .2 We expected the numbers to go up not down. He is sending me over to an endo now...this ought to be fun...NOT.

I've always bounced back ok...but this time, different. I'm so tired even after 8 hours of sleep....I have to get a few naps in a day.....so I knew I was low...but I've been feeling better since the first test..but the numbers proved different... Dr. is aware of what I do but he's unsure what to do now that I'm not recovering so this was his idea.

I wonder if I've fried myself....nuts are back to normal size, but I wonder if they are working...several of my friends have had low test levels and sperm count was high...none of them had a 16 though. Thoughts?

infinity1 · Oct 7, 2011

GaJoe said:
Competed back in august...last test prop admin. was on the 13th. After the meet I went through a few weeks of pct. Mid September, liver values and hemaglobin was elevated and so was bun/creatinine levels which was expected. Test levels were 177. Used some liv detox, increased water intake, backed off protein and went to moderate intensity training 4 times a week....Had my blood worked yesterday...today Dr. called w/ results...kidney, liver, hemaglobin all fine.....test has fallen to 16 and free test to .2 We expected the numbers to go up not down. He is sending me over to an endo now...this ought to be fun...NOT.

I've always bounced back ok...but this time, different. I'm so tired even after 8 hours of sleep....I have to get a few naps in a day.....so I knew I was low...but I've been feeling better since the first test..but the numbers proved different... Dr. is aware of what I do but he's unsure what to do now that I'm not recovering so this was his idea.

I wonder if I've fried myself....nuts are back to normal size, but I wonder if they are working...several of my friends have had low test levels and sperm count was high...none of them had a 16 though. Thoughts?

The size of your balls is not always the best indicator. Go to the endo see what he/she has to say. Are you trying to have kids as your mentioned sperm count?

GaJoe · Oct 7, 2011

Lol if that were the case I'd never produced any...I've never walked around with grapes dangling...didn't really have plans of having a kid in the very near future but something I do want...guess it's getting time to make that call...if it's not too late it's prob now or never..

GaJoe · Nov 4, 2011

Test Results In

Finally all the test results in...most everything normal except:

testosterone- 52 (norm 348-1197)
free test- 2.4 (norm 8.7-25.1)

Estradiol 7.3l (norm 7.6-42.6)

Everything else was in normal tolerance...hair continues to fall out....

Sperm anaylysis yielded no sperm at all...0 also high ph 8.8

So, off to a urologist now...along w/ a mri of the brain/pituitary and some type of chromosome/dna test. We know if we treat with test it will remove the sypmtoms and also bring up the test/free test...also bringing up estradiol...

My thought is, there isn't enough test to convert to estrogen, therefore both levels are down.....

FSH 2.8 (norm 1.5-12.4)
LH 2.3 (norm 1.7-8.6)

Since I'm falling in normal tolerance here, the signal from the pituitary is being sent, so I'm getting the feedback there, hypoyhalamus must be working, pituitary must be working, but the boys are shot. He is not hesitant to put me on hrt because there is no sperm count to supress. Anyone had any experience of no sperm count and then having some later on?

Thoughts? Comments? Experiences? I think my chances of having a kid are shot...

jimmyjones · Nov 4, 2011

How old are you and how long u been juicing for?

bigsport · Nov 4, 2011

It can take anywhere from 6 months to 1 yr or more for your natural testosterone levels to return on their own. Or maybe they will never return. This has been discussed countless times on the board, do a search and you can read more into it.

All trt will do is further suppress it. Since your LH and FSH is normal you pretty much have to wait it out if you want your endogenous test back. Clomid would jump LH and give you a T boost which may or may not hold up when you stop.

GaJoe · Nov 5, 2011

jimmyjones said:
How old are you and how long u been juicing for?

32... about 9 years now. Usually one 12 week run for bulking and another 12 week run for competition...once a year...

GaJoe · Nov 5, 2011

bigsport said:
It can take anywhere from 6 months to 1 yr or more for your natural testosterone levels to return on their own. Or maybe they will never return. This has been discussed countless times on the board, do a search and you can read more into it.

All trt will do is further suppress it. Since your LH and FSH is normal you pretty much have to wait it out if you want your endogenous test back. Clomid would jump LH and give you a T boost which may or may not hold up when you stop.

I know it can take some time for natural test levels to recoup. That is happening now as test and free test are coming back up. What I'm not understanding is, if LH and FSH levels are in tolerance, the signals are being sent, but the testicles are not working. I had 0 sperm...not 1. I know exogenous test suppresses testicular function, but I guess I didn't understand that it totally shut them down.....from posts on this board, I guess it's not that way for everyone as many have taken much more than myself with a longer duration, and still conceived (indicating sperm production).

Remember on this I did run pct...and I used clomid. Prob why lh and fsh are in tolerance. Testicles are back to normal size, which for me has never been much. Endo asked about taking hits to the testicles or mumps, which neither have happened. He questions if I've ever made sperm.

I have not read of any cases on here where someone did not produce any sperm...and I know tons of guys who were/are producing at least some even while they are "on".

AJW91 · Nov 5, 2011

GaJoe said:
Finally all the test results in...most everything normal except:

testosterone- 52 (norm 348-1197)
free test- 2.4 (norm 8.7-25.1)

Estradiol 7.3l (norm 7.6-42.6)

Everything else was in normal tolerance...hair continues to fall out....

Sperm anaylysis yielded no sperm at all...0 also high ph 8.8

So, off to a urologist now...along w/ a mri of the brain/pituitary and some type of chromosome/dna test. We know if we treat with test it will remove the sypmtoms and also bring up the test/free test...also bringing up estradiol...

My thought is, there isn't enough test to convert to estrogen, therefore both levels are down.....

FSH 2.8 (norm 1.5-12.4)
LH 2.3 (norm 1.7-8.6)

Since I'm falling in normal tolerance here, the signal from the pituitary is being sent, so I'm getting the feedback there, hypoyhalamus must be working, pituitary must be working, but the boys are shot. He is not hesitant to put me on hrt because there is no sperm count to supress. Anyone had any experience of no sperm count and then having some later on?

Thoughts? Comments? Experiences? I think my chances of having a kid are shot...

Were you using HCG or triptorelin as part of your PCT or on-cycle therapy? If so, what dosages and how frequently did you use it?

gazgazo · Nov 5, 2011

Man, I feel for you. Two 12 week runs a year don't seem to be too much but perhaps over the years, the effects have accumulated.

Have you used HCG in your PCT? Maybe you can do one more very aggressive PCT, combining HCG, HMG, Clomid and A-dex/Aromasin and see what that does for you. I mean just give it one last try before you go on TRT forever. Something to consider.

Hope everything works out for you bro. I will be checking this thread for your updates.

AJW91 · Nov 5, 2011

gazgazo said:
Man, I feel for you. Two 12 week runs a year don't seem to be too much but perhaps over the years, the effects have accumulated.

Have you used HCG in your PCT? Maybe you can do one more very aggressive PCT, combining HCG, HMG, Clomid and A-dex/Aromasin and see what that does for you. I mean just give it one last try before you go on TRT forever. Something to consider.

Hope everything works out for you bro. I will be checking this thread for your updates.

Are you sure more HCG, HMG, clomid, adex, aromasin, etc. is what he needs? His LH, FSH, E2 are in range... it seems like his problem is his nuts. Could be the result of overstimulation with compounds like HCG?

idk... anyone more experienced want to weigh in?

GaJoe · Nov 7, 2011

I used hcg @ 2000/every third day for two weeks...followed by clomid...and adex all the way through. This is what I've run every time for pct. I'm confused, as well as the dr, as to why the signals are there but there is nothing being produced.

He wanted to send me to a uro and get an mri done...he suspects I may have never produced sperm, ever. Hard to say...did I never produce or did I supress it completely....I figured enough time had passed. I can fix the low test levels...so I'm holding off hrt until I can figure out what to do about the sperm count.

bananas007 · Nov 7, 2011

damn man that sucks. The only thing is where did you get your clomid from?/ ARe you 100% sure it was pharm grade, or was it research chemicals. Maybe try it with pharmgrade. Thats weird though.

AJW91 · Nov 7, 2011

GaJoe said:
I used hcg @ 2000/every third day for two weeks... followed by clomid...and adex all the way through. This is what I've run every time for pct. I'm confused, as well as the dr, as to why the signals are there but there is nothing being produced.

He wanted to send me to a uro and get an mri done...he suspects I may have never produced sperm, ever. Hard to say...did I never produce or did I supress it completely....I figured enough time had passed. I can fix the low test levels...so I'm holding off hrt until I can figure out what to do about the sperm count.

It's possible that over the years you have overstimulated your Leydig cells with that dose. The recommended HCG dose is 250iu-350iu twice a week... and you used about six times that maximal dose in a single shot.

Honestly, it's the only thing that makes sense, considering your LH and FSH are within range.

I might be wrong because I'm not a MD or even an expert on these matters, but from what I've seen/read that's the only thing that makes sense.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news. Hopefully I'm wrong.

GaJoe · Nov 7, 2011

grenada said:
damn man that sucks. The only thing is where did you get your clomid from?/ ARe you 100% sure it was pharm grade, or was it research chemicals. Maybe try it with pharmgrade. Thats weird though.

clomid is from anfarm hellas..so I know they are the real deal...

GaJoe · Nov 7, 2011

AJW, that's possible I suppose. I was going by the Palumbo protocol for pct. I am going to have to go back in and do some research on desensitizing.....

dragonfire101 · Nov 8, 2011

The lab you use free test reference range appears to be on the very low side for free test, which is the test your body uses. The labs I have used start at 35- 155. You really want free test to be at least closer to 100 than lower. Ican see why your tired

What are you trying to do...Get sperm count up to have kids are just try to get into normal ranges again without HRT. Are you apposed to just doing HRT if thats what the Endo suggest.

dragonfire101 · Nov 8, 2011

You need a full work up…insulin resistance, E2 and SHBG all play an intertwining part and if one is off they all can be impacting your test levels. Also have your DHEA and D3 levels checked as that plays a role in Test levels. Also sleep and stress. If your E2 is high it increases SHBG, which will not allow testosterone to be used as it bonds to it. Many things else to look at.

GaJoe · Nov 9, 2011

dragonfire101 said:
The lab you use free test reference range appears to be on the very low side for free test, which is the test your body uses. The labs I have used start at 35- 155. You really want free test to be at least closer to 100 than lower. Ican see why your tired

What are you trying to do...Get sperm count up to have kids are just try to get into normal ranges again without HRT. Are you apposed to just doing HRT if thats what the Endo suggest.

Tired is not the word...lately it's been around 16-18 hours a day sleeping...waking up enough to get something to eat/drink, change clothes from the sweat, and go right back...seems like the tiredness is getting worse. I don't have the will power to take the garbage out or feed the dogs..much less the gym. It's a tiredness I can't fight..like if I'm behind the computer I might wake up in front of it and never remember falling to sleep.

Ideally I'd like to have some type of sperm count...0 just seems off. I understand that I may be rebounding still from cycle...but even so, I know plenty of guys that have low t but still have a sperm count. Endo is not worried about suppresing sperm ct, but rather wants to know why I don't have a sperm count. He will start me on hrt later this month to address the tiredness. He did do a chromosomal test on me, and I have to get the mri on my head/pituitary/thalamus glands, and go see a uro. He doesn't want to start me on test yet so we can see what is taking place. I will mention the shbg ct. and dhea. I supplement with 5000 iu vit D so that should be fine right? His wife is a diabetic specialist in the same office so I"ll check on insulin resistance as well.

E2 was 7.3 (norm 7.6-42.6)

I just had a sleep study...nothing wrong there. Stress could be up there...anxiety hitting me because I don't feel like doing anything....not to mention wife has left me...but I don't feel super stressed about it....I do miss training very badly..when I go I have no focus nor will...bf% has gone up...hard to believe I competed a few months ago and now I'm a soft fatty.

dragonfire101 · Nov 10, 2011

GaJoe said:
Tired is not the word...lately it's been around 16-18 hours a day sleeping...waking up enough to get something to eat/drink, change clothes from the sweat, and go right back...seems like the tiredness is getting worse. I don't have the will power to take the garbage out or feed the dogs..much less the gym. It's a tiredness I can't fight..like if I'm behind the computer I might wake up in front of it and never remember falling to sleep.

Ideally I'd like to have some type of sperm count...0 just seems off. I understand that I may be rebounding still from cycle...but even so, I know plenty of guys that have low t but still have a sperm count. Endo is not worried about suppresing sperm ct, but rather wants to know why I don't have a sperm count. He will start me on hrt later this month to address the tiredness. He did do a chromosomal test on me, and I have to get the mri on my head/pituitary/thalamus glands, and go see a uro. He doesn't want to start me on test yet so we can see what is taking place. I will mention the shbg ct. and dhea. I supplement with 5000 iu vit D so that should be fine right? His wife is a diabetic specialist in the same office so I"ll check on insulin resistance as well.

E2 was 7.3 (norm 7.6-42.6)

I just had a sleep study...nothing wrong there. Stress could be up there...anxiety hitting me because I don't feel like doing anything....not to mention wife has left me...but I don't feel super stressed about it....I do miss training very badly..when I go I have no focus nor will...bf% has gone up...hard to believe I competed a few months ago and now I'm a soft fatty.

Did you also have your thyroid levels checked. If not do that also.