Protein in a Plant-Based Diet: A Vegan Bodybuilder's Perspective

[norm1220]

Mack Truck:

From everything I have seen so far, Vegan Bodybuilder is a contradiction in terms and the pics of the guy at the beginning of this thread are no exception, although he is far more muscular than any of the Vegans I have seen before.

I do try to keep an open mind, especially on health issues. You mentioned you are going to be onstage in Pittsburg for Master's Nationals this year and being Vegan, you are obviously confidant that your dietary habits can produce a quality bodybuilding physique. I would love to see some pics of what you look like 2 + months out.

 

[Mini Truck]

Hey Norm,

A few weeks back, I was starting to doubt myself, even after competing in over 30 contests. Remember because of my choice to build my 2000 sf home gym and create a dungeon atmosphere, the only eyes I have are my own.
I've always had a trusted training partner to keep me grounded.

Pictures. I hate pictures, but in order to get a "brutally honest" opinion, I trusted my friend John Meadows and sent him a few pics. He gave me the green light.

When you refer to feeling confident, I am. The thing I'm certain of is the fact that I will be the best I've ever been, ever. So I've won many times before, I only pray I can keep that streak alive.

On May 26, I am doing a tune up show here in FL, that's exactly eight weeks out from Nats. I will update with some pics from that show. I will be competing in the Open, Over 35, and Over 50.

How's that sound?

Peace,

Mack

Mack Truck:

From everything I have seen so far, Vegan Bodybuilder is a contradiction in terms and the pics of the guy at the beginning of this thread are no exception, although he is far more muscular than any of the Vegans I have seen before.

I do try to keep an open mind, especially on health issues. You mentioned you are going to be onstage in Pittsburg for Master's Nationals this year and being Vegan, you are obviously confidant that your dietary habits can produce a quality bodybuilding physique. I would love to see some pics of what you look like 2 + months out.

 

[norm1220]

I look forward to seeing those pics, like I said I try to keep an open mind and I realize that I haven't seen everything there is to see.

I'm pushing 50 myself, and health is becoming more and more of a priority. The bottom line is that having all your organs functioning is far more important than a trophy and the fleeting feeling of being king of the hill. I fully understand and respect your reasons for changing your eating habits.

So, from one dinosaur to another... Go kick some @ss and show them what years of determination can do!

 

[Elusive]

Thanks for your input mack!

In the past I've been a low carb eater, and it seems that from the foods you have listed, vegan diets rely on grains to make up protein sources. Is that true? If so, do you find that you are able to maintain the same leanness with such a high carb based approach?

 

[Userat204]

Pharm,

I currently do use a supplement to cover my bases, for "extra coverage".

But for a non-bodybuilder, all your basis will be covered with a whole food approach. Whole foods should be a stable of everyone's diet.
Steel Cut Oats, Ezieliel, Grits, brown rice, red potatoes, wheat germ, Nutritional Yeast, barley, beans, unprocessed whole wheat flour, whole wheat pasta, yams, all veggies and fruits will cover all bases.

I am also a No Fat Vegan, because of my CHD. But nuts and seeds, "real" peanut butter, hummis, guacomoli, etc should be part of a vegans diet on a daily basis.

Mack

It's nice to see these post. While I have on of the worst diets on the planet, I'm becoming more and more intrigued with whole food, plant based diets. I literally live off of steak, and plenty of other fatty meats and fatty sugary foods. According to my bloodwork I am perfectly healthy but I'm affraid that it will begin to catch up with me quickly.

A friend of mine, who is vegetarian and about 6'5-6'7 at 260-280 and super lean. No meat, eggs on occasion, no dairy, but he gets plenty of protiens thru beans, pasta, veggies, and when he's busy or needs more he will add in shakes.

This has to be much better on the body than the constant fats, and sugars. Don't get me wrong because I love the foods I eat but I also want to start substituting more of the garbage for some better foods.

Ex. Today's breakfast, 9oz sirloin, 4 eggs, grits (only ate 1/4), bacon, hash browns w/cheese and onion, 2 biscuits with butter and apple butter. Dinner will be roast, potatoes, carrots, biscuits, peach cobbler and that's a typical day. High cal, high fat, high carb. I feel like I'm lucky to not be a fat blob with heart problems. I'm also very active so I burn a lot of cals.

Anyway, looking at what my buddy eats, really it's all in preparation like with anything. I look at his meals with beans, veggies, salsa, pasta, and at first I'm thinking ok all the side dishes are there but more and more lately I'm looking at it as replacement to a couple meals. It would be nice to feel energized more after meals then feel tired from the rush of sugars etc.

The one thing I don't like about the article, IMO, you really have to eat a lot of veggies to get cals and protiens and that would take some time to adjust to for me. Beans ok not so many and you got a good amount of protien but everything else takes a lot. Plus I like most veggies cooked, I'm assuming that is going to decrease the protien and nutritional value.

Good to see some post on this subject though, it makes me think more every day about what I consume.

 

[Ironraider]

Hey User...my friend...we are brothers from another mother!

I ate just like that...every day, all the time...no surrender. I will say this much, I won't give up my meat...I just enjoy the taste of it, and the overall protein balance that it give.

I handed my diet over to Mack...he looked it over and tweaked it...well, changed it, while leaving certain meats in on certain days...pending body part workout etc. One thing that is increased are the veggies...but I've gotta tell you bro...I'm starting to love this stuff!

My wife is kinda in shock...but this is the type of diet she has followed for years. I'm feeling great, getting leaner, and I know for a fact, I'm not losing muscle. I'm still taking in around 300 grams of protein...little fat...more carbs.

I thank God for the change!

 

[Userat204]

Iron that is great to hear. I don't think I could give up meat completely either. I do like fish and chicken but not the same as red meat, honestly I'm so fortunate to have a girlfriend(soon to be wife) who is such a good cook. She could make dog food taste great. Lol.

But we both like to eat, she's naturally tiny so I don't worry about her, she's not nearly as unhealthy in choices as I am and has a great body, but her mother is very small also with high bp, so it may be genetic since it's not due to being over weight.

I really started to see some of the benefit while looking at my friend, he grew up not eating meat so it's normal to him but on occasion he will eat some eggs. He's like me in the sense we can eat high carbs and stay lean. He's is very tall and it takes a lot to make him thick looking but he does so on his diet and does have to work to get extra cals and protiens but he is a very busy guy and makes it work. Honestly this last year I was amazed at how good he looked, he built a lot of mass but had veins across his abs.

My biggest concern originally is that it takes a high amount of cals for me to make big gains, so I went to a slow steady approach, not trying to blow up on cycles but trying to make slower lean gains but I still need a lot of cals, but realistically when you start looking at different options you can get everything you need in reasonable amounts.

I'm really happy to hear it's working for you and that you are making it a lifestyle while still enjoying it. I have always loved vegetables and fruits but cooked veggies. For some reason this past year or so I've been craving fatty meats and sugars. I went thru a period of really bad blood sugar issues (severly low after eating) but got that straight.

I think I will follow in your footsteps iron and add more veggies to the meats that I'm eating. My breakfast is something I need to work on, I may go back to my protien/oatmeal/Greek yogurt, which is great cold, and maybe drop the meats, add some fruits. And for the sugars just go back to fresh fruits. It's great to hear your story because it makes it sound better in my head and more like a positive change then a punishment. For me, when I start to eat more junk, I begin to crave even more, but when I cut most sugars out years ago I didn't even miss them.

I appreciate your input, I'm going to start this right away and slowly make some changes, and like you mentioned, I'll save my red meats for specific days and times. I have a lot to learn.

 

[Mini Truck]

Open Mind

Hey Bros,

Just wanted to wrap up a few of your questions, so I hope this sheds some light.

My philosophy in regards to getting lean has always been to consume as little fat as you can, keeping the protein moderate and the carbs the highest of all three. Most of your carbs should come from complex carb sources with a low
GI. This enables you to "feel full and satisfied" and avoid the hunger which comes with most traditional pre-contest diets. Personally I eat almost no fruits because of the effect on my BS, but you don't have to worry about that fortuently.

As a side note to this, since being vegan, and trying to put on muscle, my BF% has never gone above 10% since I started on this venture. My usual off season BF% was always around 15%. So getting leaner is a built in side effect to the vegan concept. For me, the easiest thing to remove from the diet, with the least amount of sacrifice, are fats.

And remember, I'm not on a "must be a vegan campaign". As I've helped people who are carnivors, I keep the meats to specific days in order to keep the meat in their diets, but still keep the goal of leanness in mind.

As I customized Iron's diet for example, I suggested he eat his 2 beef meals (a week) on Leg days, which with Heavy-High Volume-High Intensity MTST, would be one of his biggest fat burning day anyways. So feed your fats on the days that take the most exertion.

2 salmon meals (a week) are eaten on Back days and 2 whole egg meals (a week) are on chest days. All other meals are chicken or white fish. Avoid tilapia (sorry) it contains too many bad fats, as opposed to healthier fats like salmon. The more white fish meals, the lower your bodyfat. Also try 3-4 vegan meals a week instead of any meat meals. Being even a 25% vegan will change how you look (leaner) and feel (more energized).

I agree this approach takes more food prep time, so cook in bulk....veggies, steel cut oats, yams, brown rice, etc, so you're not a daily slave in the kitchen. I can go several days with little prep, but a couple days a week, prep will be necessary. Just think of it as a workout..you wouldn't miss leg day although you might dread it. The key word here is: SIMPLIFY. It's easier and healthier.

Pharm, this is a great thread. Please know that I am in no way trying to steal your show. But if we move this discussion over to the THINK TANK, many of the "unknowns", some recipes, and some great point/counterpoints have been discussed by some main players on PM.

I love questions, "friendly" controversary, other opinions, etc, so feel free to ask me anything. All this is a perfect fit for the THINK TANK.

Hope to see everyone there as we explore this together.

Peace,

Mack

 

[Mini Truck]

Good one Elusive,

You are correct, most vegans get their protein from veggies and grains, nuts, beans, etc.

But they're most often not bodybuilders. If your goal was to consume 250 grams of protein a day, for example, you couldn't eat enough of these foods to reach that protein goal. That's why I use the Pea-Isolate. I can't praise it enough.

Thanks for your input mack!

In the past I've been a low carb eater, and it seems that from the foods you have listed, vegan diets rely on grains to make up protein sources. Is that true? If so, do you find that you are able to maintain the same leanness with such a high carb based approach?

 

[Mini Truck]

User,

The hardcore vegan does consume most veggies raw.

I even tried that but it didn't last long.

Although I'm sure there is a healthy dynamic to this, raw veggies just don't make it on my end. I steam/grill/cook or a combo of all 3 when I prepare my veggies. No oil, just use veg broth and some seasonings, tastes fine.

Raw spinach, raw yams, raw asparagas, etc, just don't cut it for me .

Mack

It's nice to see these post. While I have on of the worst diets on the planet, I'm becoming more and more intrigued with whole food, plant based diets. I literally live off of steak, and plenty of other fatty meats and fatty sugary foods. According to my bloodwork I am perfectly healthy but I'm affraid that it will begin to catch up with me quickly.

A friend of mine, who is vegetarian and about 6'5-6'7 at 260-280 and super lean. No meat, eggs on occasion, no dairy, but he gets plenty of protiens thru beans, pasta, veggies, and when he's busy or needs more he will add in shakes.

This has to be much better on the body than the constant fats, and sugars. Don't get me wrong because I love the foods I eat but I also want to start substituting more of the garbage for some better foods.

Ex. Today's breakfast, 9oz sirloin, 4 eggs, grits (only ate 1/4), bacon, hash browns w/cheese and onion, 2 biscuits with butter and apple butter. Dinner will be roast, potatoes, carrots, biscuits, peach cobbler and that's a typical day. High cal, high fat, high carb. I feel like I'm lucky to not be a fat blob with heart problems. I'm also very active so I burn a lot of cals.

Anyway, looking at what my buddy eats, really it's all in preparation like with anything. I look at his meals with beans, veggies, salsa, pasta, and at first I'm thinking ok all the side dishes are there but more and more lately I'm looking at it as replacement to a couple meals. It would be nice to feel energized more after meals then feel tired from the rush of sugars etc.

The one thing I don't like about the article, IMO, you really have to eat a lot of veggies to get cals and protiens and that would take some time to adjust to for me. Beans ok not so many and you got a good amount of protien but everything else takes a lot. Plus I like most veggies cooked, I'm assuming that is going to decrease the protien and nutritional value.

Good to see some post on this subject though, it makes me think more every day about what I consume.

 

[Exphys88]

Mack,
It sounds like youre familiar w esselstein and ornish? I rehab cardiac patients and recommend my patients follow the Ornish diet.
I've seen amazing drops in lipids, weight and bp after switching my patients to a whole food, plant based diet.

 

[Mini Truck]

E,

Yes. The China Study, Dr Esselstein and the DVD "Forks over Knives" have changed my life permanently.

If everyone just viewed "Forks over Knives", I believe eyes would open and jaws would drop.

Great job with your rehab recomendations. Numbers never lie!

Mack

Mack,
It sounds like youre familiar w esselstein and ornish? I rehab cardiac patients and recommend my patients follow the Ornish diet.
I've seen amazing drops in lipids, weight and bp after switching my patients to a whole food, plant based diet.

 

[Pharm_Fed]

I'm so pleased this has sparked so interesting discussion. Mack, if you want to move it to the THINK TANK I'm all for that. My hope was that this would lead to some good info and I think it has.

Also, I agree "Forks over Knives" is a good film to watch. Really interesting information presented in that movie.

 

[Cornelius]

Nice thread!

A personal training client of mine went from 400lb to 160lb following this diet.
He preaches the china study book all the time.
Although I don't agree that no fat besides a few chia seeds is the best way to live for HEALTHY human beings I can't deny his results.

I personally eat a whole lot less meat these days.
Whey, fruit, nut butters = most of my meals.

 

[Mini Truck]

Pharm,

I suggested that because it flows with many other "unique perspectives" that has made the TT so popular.

I know, "Forks" is amazing. Imagine being able to turn cancer "on" with an animal based diet, and turning cancer "off" with a veg based diet.

The sad truth is because the political climate is so heavily subsidized by the meat and dairy industries, it will be a difficult mind set to change.

Everything in this temporary place we live is dictated by wealth, power and greed. That engine just keeps re-fueling itself with no regard to one's well being.

See you on the THINK TANK.

Mack

I'm so pleased this has sparked so interesting discussion. Mack, if you want to move it to the THINK TANK I'm all for that. My hope was that this would lead to some good info and I think it has.

Also, I agree "Forks over Knives" is a good film to watch. Really interesting information presented in that movie.

 

[Elusive]

Mack, i have reduced my meat consumption quite a bit over this past year, simply from necessity as I am back in grad school. I only have 2 meat based meals a day of lean chicken breast with steamed vegetables and sweet potato, and my other meals consist of 1 cup cottage cheese or greek yogurt, 3 whole eggs, and 1 cup berry blend. I would say I eat 50/50 vegetarian and meat meals now. Perhaps adding vegan meals as you recommended would be the next step in my dietary evolution!

I find this really interesting, as I'm not really a bodybuilder per say. I've never used hormones before and train mainly for sports performance and just overall health. My family has had a history of diabetes, high blood pressure, and even cancer, so health is very important to me! I've used low carb based diets for most of my training life, as it's been the most effective way for me to maintain a lean physique. However, I think given my performance based goals, a higher carb diet would give me much more energy. I just bought some ezekiel genesis bread this morning and will start adding two slices a day to my breakfast and see how that goes.

Thanks again!

 

[profah]

I have a buddy that is a vegetarian as he is from India. Strongest Indian I have ever seen...150 lb dumbells on the incline press coming back into it. His strength is unreal.

 

[Captnshitacular]

Americans have been brainwashed into thinking you need meat to thrive. That simply just isnt true. Animal based protein turns on cancer cells in humans, its been proven over, and over, and over. http://www.tcolincampbell.org/courses-resources/article/animal-protein-as-a-carcinogen/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=76&cHash=71fee56850

I went veg a few years ago and it was the best thing ive ever done. Still eat 1 huge grease filled burger once a month though..the fat brainwashed carnivore inside of me just cant help it! :headbang:

to each his own though.....not saying whats right or wrong. Just works for me.

 

[Pharm_Fed]

Americans have been brainwashed into thinking you need meat to thrive. That simply just isnt true. Animal based protein turns on cancer cells in humans, its been proven over, and over, and over. http://www.tcolincampbell.org/courses-resources/article/animal-protein-as-a-carcinogen/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=76&cHash=71fee56850

I went veg a few years ago and it was the best thing ive ever done. Still eat 1 huge grease filled burger once a month though..the fat brainwashed carnivore inside of me just cant help it! :headbang:

to each his own though.....not saying whats right or wrong. Just works for me.

If that's the case, then imagine the damage bodybuilders are doing by eating enough animals protein for 4-5 regular people!

 

[Mini Truck]

Pharm,

Thanks everyone for your questions, research and opinions. As I said before, there is not just one way, there are a multitude of ways. As long as we get there, who cares. If you're not getting there, could it be your diet? Maybe!

I'm a bodybuilder, so I'm not being judgemental, just honest.
Most bodybuilders live in such a "narcisistic-me-instant gratification-selfish world" that they don't care about the future or any long term health benefits.

Often, I myself, have to be careful of not stepping over that edge. Once you step foot over that edge, it's usually over in a short period of time. I'm Blessed that the Lord steers my ship.

In all my years in the trenches, I've witnesssed this way too many times. :banghead:

Just establish boundries, and never bump up against them. Be smart, and last a long time. Be the opposite and.........................

Peace,

Mack

If that's the case, then imagine the damage bodybuilders are doing by eating enough animals protein for 4-5 regular people!