Androgen/Estrogen ratio vs reference range

[phoenix2]

I'm waiting for my blood work results in order to stop the guessing game on finding the right androgen/estrogen balance.
I've read many discussions about this topic and different opinions.
Some people claim that estradiol levels should be in the 20-30 range or anyway in the lower end of range, even when running supraphysiological dose of test and/or other androgens, in order to avoid sides effects like gyno, ed, low libido, bloat,fatigue, etc.
Others say that androgen/estrogen ratio is more important when it comes to wellbeing, sides and gains.
So, let's say i'm running 500 mg test/week, this put my test levels way above physiological range, that should be matched with slightly supraphysiological e2 levels in order to keep the right balance.
This is even more true when adding strong androgenic compounds like masteron or proviron.
These compounds are weak AI compared to aromasin, letro or adex and yet many people complain about low e2 sides with them, especially with masteron. That is probably because of the fact that dht derivatived steroids increase androgen/estrogen ratio a lot, competing with estradiol at the receptor site.
The issue is further complicated by shbg levels and so steroids that strongly bind or reduce them (masteron, winny, proviron, etc.), because it's true that less shbg = more free test, but shbg also bind estradiol, so less shbg = more free e2 too.


What do you think about? Would you like to share yours experiences?
Being my first cycle (500 test e/week only), i'm having some problems on finding the right androgen/estrogen balance. Some days i feel great, others i feel like i'm not on cycle, others again i feel low e2 symptoms (joint pain, low libido, muscle flatness, dry lips, night sweats, etc.
For AIs i have on hand aromasin and letro, both pharma grade, i'm using aromasin but with difficult on finding the right dosage/protocol.
So i've done blood tests and i'm waiting for results to see my e2, test, free test, shbg and prolactine levels. But i'm still confused... should i keep my e2 levels on the lower range or should i give more importance to the A/E ratio in order to maximise my cycle?

 

[Delt123]

500 test pw and no ai, I'm sure e2 was higher than normal but didn't had gyno and other sides apart from bloating fairly easy if I ate a cheat meal.

I'm pretty reluctant to use ai's but when it's needed I will use it. In my last cycle I used 750 test and 0.25 adex eod and that was spot on for 'feel' wise

 

[aphextwin]

I just got my labs back and on just 300 mg of Test...my estrogen levels were extremely high. No bloat or gyno......I will post the results when I have the opportunity. I need a Serm or AI. I was thinking about grabbing DIM for now. I don't how much it will help.

 

[nothuman]

I just got my labs back and on just 300 mg of Test...my estrogen levels were extremely high. No bloat or gyno......I will post the results when I have the opportunity. I need a Serm or AI. I was thinking about grabbing DIM for now. I don't how much it will help.

I'd try DIM as the first option unless it was really bad.

 

[aphextwin]

I'd try DIM as the first option unless it was really bad.

Stewie, I will have to look at it again but it’s 97 or 970. I will have to look at it. I’m far from obese....sex drive hasn’t been the best

 

[aphextwin]

Bloodwork

I had my bw about 6 days since my 300 mg test C. My Test was 1400. Estradiol- 68 pg/ml, Free Test- 342 pg/ml, and estrogen- 971.7 pg/mg.....I taking all my health supplements...Tumeric, Vitamin C, NAC....I was using creatine and 400 mg Humanofort...damn it, Emeric

I have DIM..will it help much?

 

[phoenix2]

DIM doesn't act as an AI or a SERM, it helps balancing the "bad" and "good" estrogen, shifting the estrogen metabolism towards the 2-alpha hydroxylation rather than the 16 alpha hydroxylation.
It can be useful in a cycle, but it's not a good AI sobstitute.

This is the topic i'm interested on. I copied that from another board:


"Estradiol measurements should not be compared to the default reference range, as these default reference ranges are, as you know, based on normal physiological conditions. When you apply testosterone you will have a lot more substrate for aromatase to catalyze and hence a lot more product. In addition, the androgen:estrogen activity ratio is pretty much where it boils down to, else everyone would walk around with gyno and alikes when applying test. You should compare it to the free testosterone value in serum.

I don't know the numbers of people running 1,5 gr of test having their blood done, but I have quite a few on 500 mg a week. They're usually roughly around the 3000 pmol/l free testosterone (about 5x max. ref value) and roughly 500 pmol/l estradiol (about 4x max. ref value). These guys usually do not experience estrogenic side effects such as gyno and such simply because their A:E ratio is balanced.

Under normal physiological conditions, having about 500 pmol/l estradiol would, without a doubt, lead to extreme estrogenic side effects.

However, of course, when you experience estrogenic side effects you can take counter measures. "

 

[aphextwin]

I ordered some Arimidex to help. I'm sure some will say why not Aromasin.

 

[nothuman]

I had my bw about 6 days since my 300 mg test C. My Test was 1400. Estradiol- 68 pg/ml, Free Test- 342 pg/ml, and estrogen- 971.7 pg/mg.....I taking all my health supplements...Tumeric, Vitamin C, NAC....I was using creatine and 400 mg Humanofort...damn it, Emeric

I have DIM..will it help much?

Nah I think your E2 is way too high for something like DIM to do the job you want it to do. I am just on TRT but added DHEA/Pregnenolone so the DIM might be helpful to me since those won't produce a dramatic ride in E2 like high dose test. Haven't had new blood work yet though so I'm just guessing until I do.

 

[phoenix2]

I ordered some Arimidex to help. I'm sure some will say why not Aromasin.

Both are good to go. The problem is finding the right dosage/protocol. It's difficult because you can't do blood work every week, so you have to learn how your body respond, learn signs and symptoms of high/low e2.
Adex has a longer half life (about 2 days) than aromasin (about 9 hours in males), but the latter works in a totally different way so the half life is less important.
Aromasin is a suicidal inhibitor, it means that it binds irreversibly to aromatase enzyme for the entire life of the enzyme in the body.
So the body has to syntetize new enzyme molecules and this process takes about 3-5 days.Then, even if the PLASMA half life of exemestane is 9 hours, the ACTIVE life is much more longer, because when asin is binded to aromatase, it can't be metabolized and it's destroyed togheter with the aromatase in the normal enzyme turnover.
With suicidal inhibitors is more important the quantity of enzyme that is blocked. Aromasin at 25 mg/day "kills" about 90% of the aromatase in the body. So you can take it ed, eod, e3d, or even once a week, based on how much aromatase you want to deactivate.
In a similar way work proton pumps inhibitors and aspirin.
Adex and letro instead, bind to aromatase in a reversible way, so they can detach from the enzyme. They are also competitive inhibitors, it means that compete with originals substrates (testosterone, androstenedione) for the enzyme bond and when testosterone levels increase you have to increase the dosage of AI in order to "win" the competion, because the bond is reversible. The same happens when the AI plasma concentration starts to decrease, so you can have a rebound.
Another problem is that aromatase is expressed in differents tissues and organs (brain, liver, joints, muscles, etc.) and every AI has a different ability to penetrate in these organs.
So for a given e2 plasmatic level, an AI can cause libido problems (if it penetrate more in the CNS) and another not. The same apply for joints, etc.
Finally, everything is further complicated by the subjectivity of reactions, everyone responds in different ways and has an own sweet spot.