Maintaining heart health while on AAS

[Muay Thai]

I was prescribed propranolol for ptsd........blocks norepinephrine overproduction


any thoughts or experiences? I take cialis so i dont know if ED is a side I would experience.

 

[Kaladryn]

I should have stated, I don't agree with HIIT cardio being ideal in most cases UNLESS someone is already doing steady state. If you are doing steady state and aren't concerned about limiting recovery, then maybe HIIT can be beneficial.

HIIT training isn't as special as the studies show, these are people who are getting great results from HIIT training in studies aren't doing any additional anaerobic threshold training like bodybuilders are.

HIIT training is essentially just anaerobic threshold training regardless of how it's dressed up.

To be anemic is to be 'without sufficient' RBC's'. Incidentally, the prelude of this, anemia has been described as a prerequisite for cardiomyopathy. Iron deficiency without anemia defers from iron deficiency with anemia. Coincidentally, the pendulum swings both ways when discussing cardiovascular health.

As for exercise induced anemia, it's more prevalent in menstruating females athletes whom are more than likely undernourished without substantial Fe intake. Yes I'll agree there's suggestive evidence through etiological and mechanical attributes that are theorized to be associated with exercise induced anemia. Although in the bodybuilding community, I don't see this profoundly concerning. Especially, for those exposed to erythropoietic stimulus.

As for HIIT vs steady state, I really don't have an opinion which is better than the other. Personally, I'll periodically do both depending on my mood at the time

I was just referencing exercise-induced anemia to make a point: cardiovascular exercise increases blood volume, in my experience, significantly.

HIIT training may increase blood volume but also is very demanding on the CNS. Steady-state effectively increases blood volume with minimal effects on recovery.

I believe the vast majority of all this "too many RBCs" in bodybuilders is from constant anaerobic threshold training in the form of weight training, which increases RBCs but not blood volume, and not doing enough cardiovascular exercise to increase blood volume.

How I think about it is simple, HIIT training and bodybuilding, is forcing the body to work anaerobically with rest periods between, the aerobic metabolic system isn't working at full capacity. The "trick" to cardio, in my opinion, is to get the aerobic system working maximally while not going anaerobic.

Of course, if someone wasn't already doing anaerobic training, then doing HIIT would give them more advantage than doing aerobic cardio alone.

 

[Delt123]

I should have stated, I don't agree with HIIT cardio being ideal in most cases UNLESS someone is already doing steady state. If you are doing steady state and aren't concerned about limiting recovery, then maybe HIIT can be beneficial.

HIIT training isn't as special as the studies show, these are people who are getting great results from HIIT training in studies aren't doing any additional anaerobic threshold training like bodybuilders are.

HIIT training is essentially just anaerobic threshold training regardless of how it's dressed up.



I was just referencing exercise-induced anemia to make a point: cardiovascular exercise increases blood volume, in my experience, significantly.

HIIT training may increase blood volume but also is very demanding on the CNS. Steady-state effectively increases blood volume with minimal effects on recovery.

I believe the vast majority of all this "too many RBCs" in bodybuilders is from constant anaerobic threshold training in the form of weight training, which increases RBCs but not blood volume, and not doing enough cardiovascular exercise to increase blood volume.

How I think about it is simple, HIIT training and bodybuilding, is forcing the body to work anaerobically with rest periods between, the aerobic metabolic system isn't working at full capacity. The "trick" to cardio, in my opinion, is to get the aerobic system working maximally while not going anaerobic.

Of course, if someone wasn't already doing anaerobic training, then doing HIIT would give them more advantage than doing aerobic cardio alone.

Hmm interesting. What would be a good starting point (time/ heart rate) to do cardio? Goal would be general health and lowering rbc's (mine are at 6.0)

 

[nothuman]

Sometimes I'll do 1-3 HIIT intervals and then do like 10-15 minutes of steady state from that point on.

 

[mikeyt869]

Bump, I want to review this thread when I have more time.

 

[nothuman]

New generation cardioselective beta blockers such as Nebivolol have barely any side effects if you are not already hypotensive.
Also, I believe that the cost/benefit ratio of daily low dose aspirin is favorable in anyone with high cardiovascular risk, and unfortunately that includes heavy AAS users. As pointed out above, AAS use increases thromboxane A2 expression, which increases the risk for thrombosis (Coronary thrombosis =heart attack). Taking low dose Aspirin in principle would merely bring thromboxane activity back to normal.

Hey Jeff, do you still feel the same way about this today or have you changed your stance at all?

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

That's a good question. It really depends on the individual:

Background:
Whether the benefits of aspirin for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease (CVD) outweigh its bleeding harms in some patients is unclear.

Objective:
To identify persons without CVD for whom aspirin would probably result in a net benefit.

Design:
Individualized benefit–harm analysis based on sex-specific risk scores and estimates of the proportional effect of aspirin on CVD and major bleeding from a 2019 meta-analysis.

Setting:
New Zealand primary care.

Participants:
245 028 persons (43.6% women) aged 30 to 79 years without established CVD who had their CVD risk assessed between 2012 and 2016.

Measurements:
The net effect of aspirin was calculated for each participant by subtracting the number of CVD events likely to be prevented (CVD risk score × proportional effect of aspirin on CVD risk) from the number of major bleeds likely to be caused (major bleed risk score × proportional effect of aspirin on major bleeding risk) over 5 years.

Results:
2.5% of women and 12.1% of men were likely to have a net benefit from aspirin treatment for 5 years if 1 CVD event was assumed to be equivalent in severity to 1 major bleed, increasing to 21.4% of women and 40.7% of men if 1 CVD event was assumed to be equivalent to 2 major bleeds. Net benefit subgroups had higher baseline CVD risk, higher levels of most established CVD risk factors, and lower levels of bleeding-specific risk factors than net harm subgroups.

Limitations:
Risk scores and effect estimates were uncertain. Effects of aspirin on cancer outcomes were not considered. Applicability to non–New Zealand populations was not assessed.

Conclusion:
For some persons without CVD, aspirin is likely to result in net benefit.

**broken link removed**

So, for your 60 year old mum with a moderately healthy lifestyle (non obese, decent diet, moderate physical activity) and no history of cardiovascular disease, the (moderately) increased risk of internal bleeding would outweigh the (small) reduction in cardiovascular risk. No Aspirin for her.

Similarly, for a 40 year old bodybuilder on 'true' TRT with a moderately healthy lifestyle and no history of cardiovascular disease, the (moderately) increased risk of internal bleeding would outweigh the (small) reduction in cardiovascular risk. No Aspirin for him.

However, if that same bodybuilder deviates from TRT doses and instead blasts 1 gram of gear for a 6 month cycle, then the (moderate to large) reduction in cardiovascular risk outweighs the (moderately) increased risk of internal bleeding. 81mg Aspirin for him.

But what if that bodybuilder on 1g of gear suffered from some gastrointestinal disorder that increases the risk of upper GI bleeds? Or if he has some other condition that predisposes him to internal bleeding, like a family history of aneurysm? Then the (highly) increased risk of internal bleeding would outweigh the (moderate to large) reduction in cardiovascular risk. No Aspirin for him.

And one last example. Again the 40 year old bodybuilder on TRT. Let's say he has had a family history of coronary artery disease and a high calcium score. Then the (moderate to large) reduction in cardiovascular risk outweighs the (moderately) increased risk of internal bleeding. 81mg Aspirin for him.

 

[Smack]

However, if that same bodybuilder deviates from TRT doses and instead blasts 1 gram of gear for a 6 month cycle, then the (moderate to large) reduction in cardiovascular risk outweighs the (moderately) increased risk of internal bleeding. 81mg Aspirin for him.

Are there any good alternatives to aspirin - I'm allergic unfortunately.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

Are there any good alternatives to aspirin - I'm allergic unfortunately.

Clopidogrel (brand name Plavix). Talk with your doctor before taking it (or Aspirin for that matter).

 

[Reload]

So how about a 51 y/o male now on low dose TRT but with a history of large AAS doses over 30 years with diverticulosis and moderately controlled BP (160mg Valsartan/daily). 81mg baby aspirin ok?

 

[Reload]

I was on 80mg Telmisartan but CVS doesn't always stock it. Something about their "buyer" not always being able to aquire it? Valsartan is their 'go to' when they don't have it available. Is this a good substitute or should I demand the Telmisartan?

Is there a combo Micardis/Bystolic BP med out there?

 

[maldorf]

dont stop taking suddenly

Just found this about a rebound affect if you stop suddenly.

"What happens if you stop taking aspirin every day?

You might be surprised to learn that stopping daily aspirin therapy can have a rebound effect that may increase your risk of heart attack. If you have had a heart attack or a stent placed in one or more of your heart arteries, stopping daily aspirin therapy can lead to a life-threatening heart attack.

If you have been taking daily aspirin therapy and want to stop, it's important to talk to your doctor before making any changes. Suddenly stopping daily aspirin therapy could have a rebound effect that may trigger a blood clot."

from the Mayo Clinic
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...e/in-depth/daily-aspirin-therapy/art-20046797

 

[maldorf]

As a side note

I take both Coumadin 6mg/day and a baby aspirin each day. I did have a blood clot that almost killed me and factor 2 disorder so I am not the norm. Just putting it out there because I have never had any bleeding problems and I have been doing this for 11 years now.

If youre healthy and don't have any risk factors then I wouldn't take the aspirin. Read the article from the Mayo Clinic. If you are taking large doses of steroids then I think I might actually consider taking it. I would research that more though. I see large doses of steroids as being a significant risk of blood clot.

 

[MyNameIsJeff]

So how about a 51 y/o male now on low dose TRT but with a history of large AAS doses over 30 years with diverticulosis and moderately controlled BP (160mg Valsartan/daily). 81mg baby aspirin ok?

I'd say no personally.

I was on 80mg Telmisartan but CVS doesn't always stock it. Something about their "buyer" not always being able to aquire it? Valsartan is their 'go to' when they don't have it available. Is this a good substitute or should I demand the Telmisartan?

Is there a combo Micardis/Bystolic BP med out there?

Pretty much any ARB or ACEi will do the trick. Telmisartan just has some unique PPA receptor activity which confers (small) additional benefits. But for the purposes of blood pressure control and counteracting increased angiotensin II action from AAS, other drugs like Valsartan do the job as well.

Is there a combo Micardis/Bystolic BP med out there?

I don't think there's such a combination product on the market.

 

[nothuman]

Is there a combo Micardis/Bystolic BP med out there?

I use both separately. My insurance denied them when I got a cardiologist to prescribe me so I just get them from alldaychemist

 

[MethodAir]

HIIT training is essentially just anaerobic threshold training regardless of how it's dressed up.
I was just referencing exercise-induced anemia to make a point: cardiovascular exercise increases blood volume, in my experience, significantly.

HIIT training may increase blood volume but also is very demanding on the CNS. Steady-state effectively increases blood volume with minimal effects on recovery.

I believe the vast majority of all this "too many RBCs" in bodybuilders is from constant anaerobic threshold training in the form of weight training, which increases RBCs but not blood volume, and not doing enough cardiovascular exercise to increase blood volume.

How I think about it is simple, HIIT training and bodybuilding, is forcing the body to work anaerobically with rest periods between, the aerobic metabolic system isn't working at full capacity. The "trick" to cardio, in my opinion, is to get the aerobic system working maximally while not going anaerobic.

Of course, if someone wasn't already doing anaerobic training, then doing HIIT would give them more advantage than doing aerobic cardio alone.

This makes sense. Heavy cardio creates a volume overload on the heart. Heavy powerlifting creates a pressure overload.

If someone is slightly hypotensive, and wants to rebuild LV wall thickness, they might want to consider powerlifting and using HITT.

If someone is slightly hypertensive, and wants to reduce LV wall thickness, consider more steady state cardio.

 

[maldorf]

This makes sense. Heavy cardio creates a volume overload on the heart. Heavy powerlifting creates a pressure overload.

If someone is slightly hypotensive, and wants to rebuild LV wall thickness, they might want to consider powerlifting and using HITT.

If someone is slightly hypertensive, and wants to reduce LV wall thickness, consider more steady state cardio.

Im glad you referenced Kal's post because I missed it before. Great points both of you make. I agree 100%.

 

[Reload]

I'd say no personally.


Pretty much any ARB or ACEi will do the trick. Telmisartan just has some unique PPA receptor activity which confers (small) additional benefits. But for the purposes of blood pressure control and counteracting increased angiotensin II action from AAS, other drugs like Valsartan do the job as well.

I don't think there's such a combination product on the market.

I appreciate you Jeff.

 

[Reload]

I use both separately. My insurance denied them when I got a cardiologist to prescribe me so I just get them from alldaychemist

Prices look good.
No script needed?

 

[whacked]

Thanks for breaking it down “simply”.

Good practical advice. Thank you.

This makes sense. Heavy cardio creates a volume overload on the heart. Heavy powerlifting creates a pressure overload.

If someone is slightly hypotensive, and wants to rebuild LV wall thickness, they might want to consider powerlifting and using HITT.

If someone is slightly hypertensive, and wants to reduce LV wall thickness, consider more steady state cardio.