• All new members please introduce your self here and welcome to the board:
    http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
M4B Store Banner
intex
Riptropin Store banner
Generation X Bodybuilding Forum
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Buy Needles And Syringes With No Prescription
Mysupps Store Banner
IP Gear Store Banner
PM-Ace-Labs
Ganabol Store Banner
Spend $100 and get bonus needles free at sterile syringes
Professional Muscle Store open now
sunrise2
PHARMAHGH1
kinglab
ganabol2
Professional Muscle Store open now
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
azteca
granabolic1
napsgear-210x65
advertise1
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
ashp210
UGFREAK-banner-PM
esquel
YMSGIF210x65-Banner
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store
over 5000 supplements on sale at professional muscle store

Androgen receptor down-regulation and its effects on muscle growth. Short vs Long Cycles.

Status
Not open for further replies.
I was of the same opinion thanx. Now if someone is already using 100 mcg T4 , then 25 mcg would be enough or stil stay on 37,5 mcg T3? and then just go to replacement dose of 50 mcg T4 and 12,5 T3 in the 4 weeks off cycle?

100t4 with 25t3 to 37.5 and 50mcg still for some. I've seen bloods go either way here. So right now we're at a guessing game with no bloods obv. And if it were me and I had no clue I'd trial myself on the 100 and 37.5 for a few days and see how I feel. And decide if I should bump back down or not. My experiance is the 100 and 37.5 is a slightly above normal range for most people ive encountered. A anabolic range.
 
100t4 with 25t3 to 37.5 and 50mcg still for some. I've seen bloods go either way here. So right now we're at a guessing game with no bloods obv. And if it were me and I had no clue I'd trial myself on the 100 and 37.5 for a few days and see how I feel. And decide if I should bump back down or not. My experiance is the 100 and 37.5 is a slightly above normal range for most people ive encountered. A anabolic range.
great thanx. Now that you are here i wil pick your brain a little more. About carnitine, which form of it ? aletyl l-carnitine or carnitine tartrate? I use it already at 3 times a day morning and before and after worrkout at 1 gr each time.
By the way i am now on the end of deca only cycle and i can say that after 20 years in this sport i am impressed. Great gains, no water retention, fulness, still great seks drive, no gyno, no hairloss.
 
If you read the article you'd see i posted data on everything you just said. Exogenous steroids upregulating aas then receptors returning to baseline. Literally posted and answered everytbing you said with studies. Read it

The studies literally show aas causing enhanced anabolic effects first part of use then causing no more anabolic effects after longer time on. Literally everything your asking is in the article and in the studies.

Did you read those studies?

Did the tiny study size of 12 adjust calories and change training to take into account the increase in muscle mass and body weight?

The doses are TRT, not AAS cycle dosages so how can this be applied to real world?


You're article is great, but in terms of its application to us lot, nope.
 
Did you read those studies?

Did the tiny study size of 12 adjust calories and change training to take into account the increase in muscle mass and body weight?

The doses are TRT, not AAS cycle dosages so how can this be applied to real world?


You're article is great, but in terms of its application to us lot, nope.

I actually have much more data specially when comes to animals to further support this.

But if your arguement is trt is the issue. Then please provide the data on why trt would cause an upregulation initially then a baseline response further on.

Calorie etc varibles are moot here for the fact there is many studies where participants did not increase calories to gain any weight at all. Yet steroids magically placed 5 to almost 20lbs on them. How can one gain 18lbs on average across the board without eating immense amounts. Androgen receptor expression.

Steroids without energy intake change even in calorie controlled settings have proven to be anabolic. So steroids without this change are anabolic well proven.

So your arguement is androgen receptor expression isn't that important yet studies showed it was the factor in the anabolic response and when baseline values returned only a anti catabolic effect was seen. Such as glucocortoid receptor blocking effects.

The studies flat out show this. And common knowledge on how anabolics work with majortiy of the anabolic effects being via the receptor and other variables generally having a anti catabolic effect outside of the ar are not as great in comparsion. Hence why all.the cross referenced studies on such as androgen receptor content was basically the main factor separating what men didn't respond at all to training with muscle growth and what men did the most .

Again the study showed us fully that the anabolic response was due to androgen receptor increase. And it vanished apoun decrease.

Do you have studies on humans like this to refute the claim aas increase it initially and does not decrease months into aas use. If not well then this is your opinion refuting science.

And do you have science to refute androgen receptor content is one of.the biggest gate keepers to muscle growth . If not this is your opinion. I've provided the data. Your side has provided none.
 
great thanx. Now that you are here i wil pick your brain a little more. About carnitine, which form of it ? aletyl l-carnitine or carnitine tartrate? I use it already at 3 times a day morning and before and after worrkout at 1 gr each time.
By the way i am now on the end of deca only cycle and i can say that after 20 years in this sport i am impressed. Great gains, no water retention, fulness, still great seks drive, no gyno, no hairloss.


Are you a follower of mine lol? Already doing everything.
 
Are you a follower of mine lol? Already doing everything.
Haha no. Not yet but maybe maybe . Like i said i am in this game long time . And i am watching people doing things what just doesnt make sense and just because some so called Guru says dont do this but do this that doesnt mean he or they know what they are talking about. Just because they are bigger or have bigger clients doesnt mean they know what they are talking about. It is very easy to pick a genetic freak and train him and give him a cycle and watch them grow. Lets see these Gurus picking a less of a genetic specimen and make something of them. Now here where the brains come in. Iam no longer interested in being competitive , i just want to look good naked like Seth Feroce would say. But i can say to you i was a 140 pounds 24 years old and with no genetics. That made me work hard and study a lot ( not just bro science). Eventualy i reached 245 pounds offseason weight and competed around 215 pounds. Yes steroids, gh, insulin all involeved but never in exess. And a lots of lots of supplements . True trial and error i learned what really works and what not. I am not saying i know everything, wel not even 10 procent what is to learn but i am eager to learn and stil learning a lot because i like this kind of lifestile even if it is not the healtiest one. Keep up the good work Taeian.
 
Haha no. Not yet but maybe maybe . Like i said i am in this game long time . And i am watching people doing things what just doesnt make sense and just because some so called Guru says dont do this but do this that doesnt mean he or they know what they are talking about. Just because they are bigger or have bigger clients doesnt mean they know what they are talking about. It is very easy to pick a genetic freak and train him and give him a cycle and watch them grow. Lets see these Gurus picking a less of a genetic specimen and make something of them. Now here where the brains come in. Iam no longer interested in being competitive , i just want to look good naked like Seth Feroce would say. But i can say to you i was a 140 pounds 24 years old and with no genetics. That made me work hard and study a lot ( not just bro science). Eventualy i reached 245 pounds offseason weight and competed around 215 pounds. Yes steroids, gh, insulin all involeved but never in exess. And a lots of lots of supplements . True trial and error i learned what really works and what not. I am not saying i know everything, wel not even 10 procent what is to learn but i am eager to learn and stil learning a lot because i like this kind of lifestile even if it is not the healtiest one. Keep up the good work Taeian.

Ahh because you shocked me your using deca base protocol which I brought back in fashion past few years and then your using the carnitine forms and doses I actuslly suggest lmao. Fair bit shocking.
 
I actually have much more data specially when comes to animals to further support this.

But if your arguement is trt is the issue. Then please provide the data on why trt would cause an upregulation initially then a baseline response further on.

Calorie etc varibles are moot here for the fact there is many studies where participants did not increase calories to gain any weight at all. Yet steroids magically placed 5 to almost 20lbs on them. How can one gain 18lbs on average across the board without eating immense amounts. Androgen receptor expression.

Steroids without energy intake change even in calorie controlled settings have proven to be anabolic. So steroids without this change are anabolic well proven.

So your arguement is androgen receptor expression isn't that important yet studies showed it was the factor in the anabolic response and when baseline values returned only a anti catabolic effect was seen. Such as glucocortoid receptor blocking effects.

The studies flat out show this. And common knowledge on how anabolics work with majortiy of the anabolic effects being via the receptor and other variables generally having a anti catabolic effect outside of the ar are not as great in comparsion. Hence why all.the cross referenced studies on such as androgen receptor content was basically the main factor separating what men didn't respond at all to training with muscle growth and what men did the most .

Again the study showed us fully that the anabolic response was due to androgen receptor increase. And it vanished apoun decrease.

Do you have studies on humans like this to refute the claim aas increase it initially and does not decrease months into aas use. If not well then this is your opinion refuting science.

And do you have science to refute androgen receptor content is one of.the biggest gate keepers to muscle growth . If not this is your opinion. I've provided the data. Your side has provided none.

You've provided data that isn't applicable to young men or trained athletes. Your "data" is on older men (60yrs+) with a tiny sample size of 12, including only 7 which received TE treatment.

Second, who does a TRT dose cycle and then doesn't change their diet or training for 6 moths?

You're argument "AR down regulation falls off a cliff and so do gains in muscle mass after 6 weeks" is nonsense.

I'll refer to the well known 1996 study thats often cited due to being the most applicable to us bodybuilders:

The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men

Full paper: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199607043350101

600mg of TE given to healthy men (not 60+, untrained) over 10 weeks. What did it find?

Bodyweight increased from 76kg to 82kg (6kg gained)

Fat Free Mass (FFM) increased from 65kg to 71kg (6kg gained)

Bench Press increased from 97kg to 119kg (22kg increase)

Squat increased from 102kg to 140kg (38kg increase)

Hows all that possible if your little theory of "cycles become less effective after 6 weeks"?

Sorry to blow a hole in your article, but you've cherry picked and written an entire article on data thats hardly relevant here. I know because I've done it too.
 
Ahh because you shocked me your using deca base protocol which I brought back in fashion past few years and then your using the carnitine forms and doses I actuslly suggest lmao. Fair bit shocking.
Actually the deca only cycle i heard from old timers in my birth country who used that in 80's. Sometimes you just need to listen to older guys. Thats what am i saying now to my clients haha.
 
You've provided data that isn't applicable to young men or trained athletes. Your "data" is on older men (60yrs+) with a tiny sample size of 12, including only 7 which received TE treatment.

Second, who does a TRT dose cycle and then doesn't change their diet or training for 6 moths?

You're argument "AR down regulation falls off a cliff and so do gains in muscle mass after 6 weeks" is nonsense.

I'll refer to the well known 1996 study thats often cited due to being the most applicable to us bodybuilders:

The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men

Full paper: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199607043350101

600mg of TE given to healthy men (not 60+, untrained) over 10 weeks. What did it find?

Bodyweight increased from 76kg to 82kg (6kg gained)

Fat Free Mass (FFM) increased from 65kg to 71kg (6kg gained)

Bench Press increased from 97kg to 119kg (22kg increase)

Squat increased from 102kg to 140kg (38kg increase)

Hows all that possible if your little theory of "cycles become less effective after 6 weeks"?

Sorry to blow a hole in your article, but you've cherry picked and written an entire article on data thats hardly relevant here. I know because I've done it too.
That study has nothing to do with receptor regulation.. its a dose response effect... which nobody is argueing. Use more gain more..

You ignored fully all my points and provided zero studies to back your claims.

You post a study on more you use more you gain... nothing to do with the topic that gains halt come a spef time peroid. Use more gain more yes. But doesn't work forever.

So again please provide studies proving... receptors do not down regulate past the intial first few weeks like I did. Again otherwise your posting your opinion with zero science. Study shows receptors do not down regulate please as that is your claim.

Then post proof gains continue. Please

As I posted a study also on test e showing on athletes peak size and strength as well by week 3..

You've posted zero. Zero data to back your claims gains don't stall. But posted a study showing more you use the better ? I don't think you understand what's going on here at all honestly.

Please provide data on the topic.
 
You've provided data that isn't applicable to young men or trained athletes. Your "data" is on older men (60yrs+) with a tiny sample size of 12, including only 7 which received TE treatment.

Second, who does a TRT dose cycle and then doesn't change their diet or training for 6 moths?

You're argument "AR down regulation falls off a cliff and so do gains in muscle mass after 6 weeks" is nonsense.

I'll refer to the well known 1996 study thats often cited due to being the most applicable to us bodybuilders:

The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men

Full paper: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejm199607043350101

600mg of TE given to healthy men (not 60+, untrained) over 10 weeks. What did it find?

Bodyweight increased from 76kg to 82kg (6kg gained)

Fat Free Mass (FFM) increased from 65kg to 71kg (6kg gained)

Bench Press increased from 97kg to 119kg (22kg increase)

Squat increased from 102kg to 140kg (38kg increase)

Hows all that possible if your little theory of "cycles become less effective after 6 weeks"?

Sorry to blow a hole in your article, but you've cherry picked and written an entire article on data thats hardly relevant here. I know because I've done it too.

Also proving how you are cherry picking as your only talking about the 1 study I posted and ignored the rest. Again I posted a study on test e showing peak gains in strength and sixe by week 3. Please email shalender bhasin yourself of the 20 week testosterone study of men gaining upwards 18lbs and ask for his response yourself when the gains peaked.

Hes done similar studies many times over. Go ahead post the results here. :)

[email protected]
 
Edit time ended.

Also you using examples such as tell me how these gains were achievable in 6 weeks isnt science or proof. Your providing zero science or proof and going based off studies that you do not even comphrend. Again why I highly suggest you email the authors on what your claiming.

But again your tell me.how this was possible in 6 weeks isnt proof or a claim of a study. Back your claim up legitimately with a study showing receptors did not down regulate past initial use. And also stop ignoring the other studies I posted in cross referencing on athletes
 
Ok, listen, I'm not going back and forwards with you, I have better things to do today.

People care about gains, which is why I posted the study most applicable to us. Using your silly logic gains slow dramatically and slow after 6 weeks. I proved otherwise. Your studies are on the exact same compound Testosterone Enanthate too.

I'm not over 60.

I'm a healthy trained individual.

I'm not using TRT doses for 6 months like many here and expecting gains to not slow. We "blast and cruise" and adjust training and calories accordingly.

I have pointed out your flawed logic and application. You can continue with your ignorance and counterclaim "you haven't posted any data", which in reality, the data your have posted is hardly relevant anyway, as thats all you have. So keep going with your "you haven't posted any data" bullshit.

Well done for putting an article together, I know it takes time, but very little can be applied here to AAS users. If you want to use TRT dosages and data, and then incorrectly assume they can be extrapolated to AAS doses which are sometimes 5-10x times here, thats fine and ridiculous.

Anyhow, see my first sentence in this post.
 
Ok, listen, I'm not going back and forwards with you, I have better things to do today.

People care about gains, which is why I posted the study most applicable to us. Using your silly logic gains slow dramatically and slow after 6 weeks. I proved otherwise. Your studies are on the exact same compound Testosterone Enanthate too.

I'm not over 60.

I'm a healthy trained individual.

I'm not using TRT doses for 6 months like many here and expecting gains to not slow. We "blast and cruise" and adjust training and calories accordingly.

I have pointed out your flawed logic and application. You can continue with your ignorance and counterclaim "you haven't posted any data", which in reality, the data your have posted is hardly relevant anyway, as thats all you have. So keep going with your "you haven't posted any data" bullshit.

Well done for putting an article together, I know it takes time, but very little can be applied here to AAS users. If you want to use TRT dosages and data, and then incorrectly assume they can be extrapolated to AAS doses which are sometimes 5-10x times here, thats fine and ridiculous.

Anyhow, see my first sentence in this post.


You did not prove otherwise you posted a study that using more is better. Nothing to do with time frame. And then keep ignoring my studies on young healthy athletes and keep repeating yourself over and over again ignoring me calling out all your faults and dodging all your fallacies . Your ignoring all studies i posted on young healthy athletes and keep mentioning 1 single study

You legit have dodged everything ive said as it proves everything youve said is wrong

You posted 1 study and 1 study only which shows more is better. Nothing to do with the topic and the authors of multiple high dose testosteroke studies will tell you the gains were early on and I even provided you their email.. yet you refuse to acknowledge any of that. You won't acknowledge anything as you have been proven wrong and keep repeating a non related study.
 
Taeian, great article. I am giving this a try right now. What about compounds that seem to take longer to see their best effects like EQ? Most who have used EQ would say it needs to be run 12 to even 18 weeks to get the best effect.
 
Taeian, great article. I am giving this a try right now. What about compounds that seem to take longer to see their best effects like EQ? Most who have used EQ would say it needs to be run 12 to even 18 weeks to get the best effect.

Bullshit imo

Underdosed product or too high bf %

I love eq , i see it on me at the 3 week mark
 
Taeian, great article. I am giving this a try right now. What about compounds that seem to take longer to see their best effects like EQ? Most who have used EQ would say it needs to be run 12 to even 18 weeks to get the best effect.

Eq definitely works alot quicker but understand your asking for best effects. Many steroids like test e don't peak till much later but the study above showed by week 3 test e effects were already starting to go off course from linear gains.

So eq I prefer only for cutting due to its long clearance time for receptors and due to fact during prep you stay on for anti catabolic effect anyways.
 
There is something to it though you have to remember that the research is not actual because they are not, for example, Bodybuilders weighing 280 pounds after training and using hormones for 20 years, then their results could be completely different, although many use a similar methodology, e.g.

your "crusie" for 4 weeks
1.2g test e
800mg deca

then blast 6-8 weeks
1.2g test e
700mg test prop
800mg deca
700mg npp
100mg anadrol day

and repeat, many do so and this is also some way because it's really hard to maintain high intensity training and very high calories for a long period
 
More experienced, articulate and knowledgeable people like Broderick Chavez have been ripping holes in these types of bogus claims for years.

Broderick likens it to an elevator. There are levels of development that are largely determined by PED dose, training, nutrition, genetics etc. When this level is reached, more drugs, training, food etc are typically required to reach a higher level.

But as Broderick says, it's not because the drugs stopped working...it's because the drugs ARE working. And as we know, this adaptation can take a long time.

There like most buildings, there is a penthouse suite, but many lifters are content to reach a lower level and stay there, while maybe occasionally blasting into the 10+ mg/kg bodyweight.

I also think the suggestions regarding T3 should be viewed very cautiously, given that they could have very negative impacts on the heart...

 
More experienced, articulate and knowledgeable people like Broderick Chavez have been ripping holes in these types of bogus claims for years.

Broderick likens it to an elevator. There are levels of development that are largely determined by PED dose, training, nutrition, genetics etc. When this level is reached, more drugs, training, food etc are typically required to reach a higher level.

But as Broderick says, it's not because the drugs stopped working...it's because the drugs ARE working. And as we know, this adaptation can take a long time.

There like most buildings, there is a penthouse suite, but many lifters are content to reach a lower level and stay there, while maybe occasionally blasting into the 10+ mg/kg bodyweight.

I also think the suggestions regarding T3 should be viewed very cautiously, given that they could have very negative impacts on the heart...


T3 part. I am suggesting a replacement dose here if you read my replies. T3s effects on the heart? You mean that it improves heart function and coronary heart disease ? T3 at normal doses only helps heart health so not sure what you are getting at.

As for the rest of the reply. None of that has anything to do with the topic. Your suggesting requiring higher doses etc. Yes nobody is stating more isnt better. It is to a degree well proven by experiences and science. No ones debating.

And none of that takes away from the fact that the magical effects of steroids hugely halt after some time on. As proven by the studies in the op and as referenced by endless pro bodybuilders and alike.

Your using a personal opinion as data here to refute. Which everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But if we're talking opinions then let's also discuss the opinions I also added by many pro bodybuilders who all felt gains hugely halted by week 6

Do these pros experiences have no value? And only the persons experience you listed has merit.

So again to be clear. You're talking using more equals more effect. Agree never said it didnt. It does. But then some how correlate that to androgens do not become less effective as time goes on . Well that doesn't correlate nor did you provide any bit of evidence.

I provided evidence with science and real world experiences that it does. Your opinion doesn't even refute the science in the slightest.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

  • pesty4077
    Moderator/ Featured Member / Kilo Klub
  • Big A
    IFBB PRO/NPC JUDGE/Administrator

Forum statistics

Total page views
558,092,211
Threads
135,764
Messages
2,768,784
Members
160,344
Latest member
Punisher13420
NapsGear
HGH Power Store email banner
your-raws
Prowrist straps store banner
infinity
FLASHING-BOTTOM-BANNER-210x131
raws
Savage Labs Store email
Syntherol Site Enhancing Oil Synthol
aqpharma
yourmuscleshop210x131
hulabs
ezgif-com-resize-2-1
MA Research Chem store banner
MA Supps Store Banner
volartek
Keytech banner
musclechem
Godbullraw-bottom-banner
Injection Instructions for beginners
Knight Labs store email banner
3
ashp131
YMS-210x131-V02
Back
Top