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People eat too much protein

Dugbet I have never seen it done ever. https://www.professionalmuscle.com/...t-too-much-protein.165144/page-5#post-2850994

"I have yet in my lifetime seen a beginning lifter lets say around a starting point of 160lb at less than 10% bodyfat.....and staying at 10% or less all the way thru the journey...end up at 260lbs plus still at less than 10%. Never seen it done or even remotely close to being done. Cant think of one person and ive been around for a long long time who even got close to doing that. Virtually every large bodybuilder i know ate their way up to superheavyweight status"

If you can show me one example of a person who stayed sub 10% on his journey to gaining 100 plus lbs of muscle mass I would love to see it. Could it be done in theory? Yea but the guy would have to absolutely abuse himself with drugs to accomplish it and would probably take a good 30 years off his lifespan
So you say that big bodybuilders just have to get fat to speed up the process and they can't do with a cleaner off seasons?

I have a couple of examples of guys who have put on tons of muscle without getting much fat: Dexter Jackson and Shaun Clarida. No, they don't weigh 300 pounds but they have outperformed guys heavier than them.

By the way, I am not saying that it is necessary to stay at 10%, I am saying that adding too much fat in the growth period is counterproductive for gaining clean muscle mass, especially in natural athletes. Maybe if you add gear, the equation will change the result towards the strategy that you propose.

Lastly, I feel like skinny beginners can make dirtier volumes in order to add size and strength, but as one spends years in this lifestyle and effort, the off-season period must be kept cleaner.
 
So you say that big bodybuilders just have to get fat to speed up the process and they can't do with a cleaner off seasons?

I have a couple of examples of guys who have put on tons of muscle without getting much fat: Dexter Jackson and Shaun Clarida. No, they don't weigh 300 pounds but they have outperformed guys heavier than them.

By the way, I am not saying that it is necessary to stay at 10%, I am saying that adding too much fat in the growth period is counterproductive for gaining clean muscle mass, especially in natural athletes. Maybe if you add gear, the equation will change the result towards the strategy that you propose.

Lastly, I feel like skinny beginners can make dirtier volumes in order to add size and strength, but as one spends years in this lifestyle and effort, the off-season period must be kept cleaner.
I don’t think anyone is saying get fat but 15% isn’t fat.
Shawn Clarida and Dexter Jackson aren’t a good measure of how most people should do things they are both genetic freaks. Also Shawn Clarida looks huge but on stage weighs around 170. Dexter has also never been considered a big guy on stage. Greg Doucette gave people this notion of main gaining but he’s never produced a monster so he’s not someone I’d listen to about getting big.
 
when i consistently ate my highest amounts of protein i looked and felt my best in the gym.. the grocery bills were smoking my bank account though lol
 
So you say that big bodybuilders just have to get fat to speed up the process and they can't do with a cleaner off seasons?

I have a couple of examples of guys who have put on tons of muscle without getting much fat: Dexter Jackson and Shaun Clarida. No, they don't weigh 300 pounds but they have outperformed guys heavier than them.

By the way, I am not saying that it is necessary to stay at 10%, I am saying that adding too much fat in the growth period is counterproductive for gaining clean muscle mass, especially in natural athletes. Maybe if you add gear, the equation will change the result towards the strategy that you propose.

Lastly, I feel like skinny beginners can make dirtier volumes in order to add size and strength, but as one spends years in this lifestyle and effort, the off-season period must be kept cleaner.
Im not saying to get fat at all, thats putting words in my mouth.....I just disagree with the statement that 200-300 calories over maintenance is ever going to create a 260lb bodybuilder from a 150lb beginner. I stand by that statement in saying I have never seen a bodybuilder stay sub 10% bodyfat and gain over 100lbs of muscle mass and I doubt Dexter or Clarida have either on their journey.
 
Im not saying to get fat at all, thats putting words in my mouth.....I just disagree with the statement that 200-300 calories over maintenance is ever going to create a 260lb bodybuilder from a 150lb beginner. I stand by that statement in saying I have never seen a bodybuilder stay sub 10% bodyfat and gain over 100lbs of muscle mass and I doubt Dexter or Clarida have either on their journey.

This was a discussion on one of Fouad's podcast recently

Him, Iain, and James H all talked about the time it took them to get to a SHW status on stage. And the average was about 8-10 years from the time of their first competition to them being 250+ on stage. That's 5-6 lbs of solid tissue a year (variable per year) with large surpluses and dieting down each year for comps. I'm sure you could speed it up with a 2-3 year off season; but time is a consistent factor here

I don't think anybody eating 3200 calories a day would get to that point in even 25 years unless they had Ramy like genetics
 
Im not saying to get fat at all, thats putting words in my mouth.....I just disagree with the statement that 200-300 calories over maintenance is ever going to create a 260lb bodybuilder from a 150lb beginner. I stand by that statement in saying I have never seen a bodybuilder stay sub 10% bodyfat and gain over 100lbs of muscle mass and I doubt Dexter or Clarida have either on their journey.

I never said that, I said that the caloric requirements should gradually increase. What I said is that starting with a low-moderate calorie surplus is best for minimizing body fat gain.
 
So, we are agree.
Not if you think people can grow the biggest and fastest while eating around maintenance or completely clean.
Shawn Clarida competed around 170 he’s going to bulk to 225-230 do you think he’s not going slam down some food and put on some fat?
 
Not if you think people can grow the biggest and fastest while eating around maintenance or completely clean.
Shawn Clarida competed around 170 he’s going to bulk to 225-230 do you think he’s not going slam down some food and put on some fat?
23 minutes in shauns offsesson diet

Training day meal plan

Meal1 beef 250g rice 150g hash brown 3 whole eggs bagel toast or pancakes

meal2 2 salmon cakes 250g rice 50g avocado

meal 3 McDonald’s cheese burger large fries hot cakes 1 strawberry pie 1 cinnamon roll Coke Zero


pre train
meal 4 60g whey 100g oats 20g peanut butter 1 muffi

intra 2 rice Krispy treats eaa creatine Gatorade or 50g dextrin

post workout
Creatine 60g whey 10g creatine glutamine 75g hbcd 20g fat peanut butter or mct oil 250g cereal

45 mins later
meal 5 byson 3 whole eggs 200g rice 150g hash brown

meal 6 mass gainer shake with peanut butter ice cream cookies

during the night waken up 50g whey 20g peanut butter
 
Man, so many individual posts I want to reply to.

I find it funny that the SHWs we have here aren't giving their thoughts with where this discussion has gone over the last day.
 
23 minutes in shauns offsesson diet

Training day meal plan

Meal1 beef 250g rice 150g hash brown 3 whole eggs bagel toast or pancakes

meal2 2 salmon cakes 250g rice 50g avocado

meal 3 McDonald’s cheese burger large fries hot cakes 1 strawberry pie 1 cinnamon roll Coke Zero


pre train
meal 4 60g whey 100g oats 20g peanut butter 1 muffi

intra 2 rice Krispy treats eaa creatine Gatorade or 50g dextrin

post workout
Creatine 60g whey 10g creatine glutamine 75g hbcd 20g fat peanut butter or mct oil 250g cereal

45 mins later
meal 5 byson 3 whole eggs 200g rice 150g hash brown

meal 6 mass gainer shake with peanut butter ice cream cookies

during the night waken up 50g whey 20g peanut butter
Appreciate the video. I’m a fan of Jansen and Shawn. Not to detour the thread but I think Matt is becoming one of the best modern coaches.
 
Appreciate the video. I’m a fan of Jansen and Shawn. Not to detour the thread but I think Matt is becoming one of the best modern coaches.

I just wish he'd give credit where it's due. There's not that much new under the sun and he's obviously taken ideas and methods from people before him and very rarely gives them the nod.

When Dante talks about stretching and green tea, he mentions John Parillo and BrooklynJuice.

When Jordan talks about rest-pause, he mentions Dante.

When Scott talks about muscle rounds and how he formulated Fortitude, he mentions Leo Costa, Big Beyond Belief, and Titan Training.

When John Meadows talks about chains and bands, he mentions Louie and Westside.

Why this kid from Texas who used to have a log on the bodybuilding.com forum acts like he invented the barbell annoys me.
 
I just wish he'd give credit where it's due. There's not that much new under the sun and he's obviously taken ideas and methods from people before him and very rarely gives them the nod.

When Dante talks about stretching and green tea, he mentions John Parillo and BrooklynJuice.

When Jordan talks about rest-pause, he mentions Dante.

When Scott talks about muscle rounds and how he formulated Fortitude, he mentions Leo Costa, Big Beyond Belief, and Titan Training.

When John Meadows talks about chains and bands, he mentions Louie and Westside.

Why this kid from Texas who used to have a log on the bodybuilding.com forum acts like he invented the barbell annoys me.
I’ve heard him give credit to Dante and Leo Costa and others. I know hes had a bad reputation in the past.I don’t take it as he acts like he invented anything but it’s hard to deny that the people he gets on stage look crazy. Absolutely everything I’ve heard is say sounds back to the basics unlike some other coaches who do act like they’ve reinvented the wheel with some new workout, drug protocol, or some super secret diet or supplement. He’s got the talent to be able to use the knowledge and produce winners and contenders. I could take every bit of knowledge from Dante, Chris Aceto, Scott Stevenson and skip hill but I still wouldn’t be able to utilize it and put someone on stage at the Olympia.
Maybe whenever somebody talks about bodybuilding training they should mention Arthur Jones or Weider. I’ve got a Jansen program and Dante is given credit in there. When has he acted like he invented anything?
 
Appreciate the video. I’m a fan of Jansen and Shawn. Not to detour the thread but I think Matt is becoming one of the best modern coaches.
It’s like anything you appreciate the information you’ve studied and learned it from and always give credit to them

with every generation there’s up and comers who take over from the guys they read and studied from

Matt is the new guy and like other new coaches you learn the same information online either from study’s a book or from the legendary gurus of the sport and apply that to the new up and coming generation
 
From an epidemiology study correct?
The problem with many studies is that the study findings are often twisted and presented to the viewer without giving them a full understanding of the research. I believe sugar is much worse than excess fats. But I do believe excess dietary fat is not optimal.
 
In your meal plan setup do you rely on pure protein coming just from meat or add in shakes to hit the target requirements

and how high is high do you prefer 400grams or 500grams everyday

thanks.
1.0-1.5 natural....1.5-2.0 loaded/enhanced. Yes i absolutely count the grams from shakes. I used to have guys eat 6 times a day and it would be 4 meals 2 shakes or even 3 meals 3 shakes for guys with difficult appetites. I personally think people undercount protein grams all the time and they take in more than they think they are taking in. A leveled 70cc of plain protein scoop is one value and a big rounded 70cc scoop is 5-7 more grams of plain protein. Put in 2 scoops and thats 10-15 more grams than they think they are taking in with that shake.....3 X a day is 30-45 grams more protein than they think they are taking in. Same things with meals. If someone got meticulous of the exact amount of protein they were taking in instead of guesstimating it (im not suggesting to be that meticulous) I am willing to bet every meal is truly above that protein ingestion amount they think they are taking in.
 
I recently saw a post on a different forum where a well known diabetes doctor stated that high protein being bad for those with composed kidneys is a lie and based on one study, that high carbs are actually what hurt the kidneys. Thoughts? I know many nephrologists say otherwise.
 
Man, so many individual posts I want to reply to.

I find it funny that the SHWs we have here aren't giving their thoughts with where this discussion has gone over the last day.
hahhah was just waaaiting to hear everyone and everything being said.

I feel like this thread is jumping around A LOT. It was about protein requirements and then it went to "the quickest way to 250" and now its Matt Jansen lol.

I'm only going to chime in to the quickest way to grow because I've basically followed a Dante approach for what, multiple years now. PLUS...i took a good chunk off in the last decade. I grew like a weed...chilled, did some PLing, didn't want to push much past 255 because that's right about where the limit is of where most women are either into it or not...but then i got married and pushed it again. I honestly probably could've gotten there FASTER if i would've had dedicated off seasons, but i was loving women too much and would cap out at about 255-260. Did that for years. The past 2 offseason are the ones I've made the best progress, and both of them were pushing hard. Getting to about that 12-14%ish and holding for awhile before cutting. THAT approach helped me make big jumps.

There's thread here on PM where Dante talks about Kevin Jordan and his rise through the amateur ranks. I think he had pics on there (from the MD forums I believe) of KJ making his weight jumps in the offseason. Going from 250...to then 275...to then 290. And every time he peeled off the fat, it was a game changer. Probably my favorite thread on here about getting big.

I think the highest I tipped the scales this offseason was 307. I'm low 290's now on a cruise. But Im also very realistic and believe that I probably need ONE MORE PUSH for me to be competitive the next time i step on stage. I was literally telling my wife this last night. If at a possible, I'll probably diet down and see where I'm at in 2021. Maybe that's 253 or 260 or 249. Who knows. But I'll probably have a nice little rebound into another offseason and do one more session of filling out and pushing calories in before I'm comfortable.

Honestly, if your goal is to look good at the beach...go up 400 cals and chill. You don't need to push. You just want arms and abs. If your goal is to look nasty and have trouble fitting in doorways, you need to push it a little bit.
 

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