Staying away from Testosterone?

[SlickNYC]

Test is for growing. High doses of test is unmatched for growth, especially with hGH. That being said once you are looking to cut or maintain, test at 10 to 20mg per day, 350 max per week, and intermittent anabolics are best for health. I believe high doses of test are detrimental to health eventually. You see it everyday. Queefer, Chris250, board members that croaked probably doing too much test into older age. Use a small amount of test for biological purposes, make up the rest with equipoise or even tren or primo. Way healthier in my opinion. You want blow up your heart and blow out your filter/kidneys? Abuse test nonstop, increase water retention, estrogen, blood volume and blood pressure. That will fucking do it.

Agree with this. To

Test is for growing. High doses of test is unmatched for growth, especially with hGH. That being said once you are looking to cut or maintain, test at 10 to 20mg per day, 350 max per week, and intermittent anabolics are best for health. I believe high doses of test are detrimental to health eventually. You see it everyday. Queefer, Chris250, board members that croaked probably doing too much test into older age. Use a small amount of test for biological purposes, make up the rest with equipoise or even tren or primo. Way healthier in my opinion. You want blow up your heart and blow out your filter/kidneys? Abuse test nonstop, increase water retention, estrogen, blood volume and blood pressure. That will fucking do it.

agree with this. My body can’t take higher test anymore. My BP shoots up and I feel like shit once I go over 500mgs. Now I’m just gonna do <300mg and right now I’m on about 100mg test p per week and 225 tren hex. Will add in primo at higher mgs because I still feel good on high primo. It’s test and tren I will keep low and may even scrap the tren hex all together. Trying this genotropin gh I hope is real and will stay on that if it is

 

[Elvia1023]

U guys are way to deep into this silly crap- just take some test and another compound if u want and eat and hit the gym-u are ripping this up 100 mg if this 10 mg of that - u Wasting ur time with this silly nonsense

Many overcomplicate drugs but sometimes it's not one size fits all. I have experimented extensively over the years and I have learnt what works for me. Don't get me wrong I often do the most basic cycles because basic works. Many times I will do something like 600mg test and 400mg deca for growing. However, fact is I feel like total shite on some cycles so why not run things so I can feel good. I 100% feel like shit on high test but I still run it from time to time. When cutting I will often do low-mod doses of multiple compounds because I will get horrible side effects if I dose the likes of tren or mast or avar high. So it's not overcomplicating things it's just taking my response into consideration and running smarter cycles. So 40mg test p, 40mg tren a and 40mg avar is ideal for me. If I take higher test and tren I feel anxious. If I take higher avar I get bad acid reflux so over the years I have learnt what compounds and doses suit me best.

Take my current cycle as another example and you may think he is overcomplicating things but I am totally not. I felt like shit during my last blasts with standard blast doses. Now I am running 450mg deca, 60mg test e and 60mg mast e every 3 days and I feel amazing. I am bigger, harder, fuller and I feel great and my sex drive/performance is fantastic. Everyone is different but I have always loved deca. I use a small dose of test and mast to have a test base and an element of DHT and I am using no AI (often cause me side effects). It took me 5 secs to think of this cycle because I know my body and it's easily dosed so I am definitely not wasting my time using different doses of multiple compounds. Now after this cycle I plan to do 600mg test e every 3 days so you can't get more basic than that but I know I will feel so much worse doing that but I am still going to do it as with an improved diet and effective supplementation I can make it work. Although I will definitely need an AI on that cycle.

So whilst far too many put far too much importance on fancy drug protocols sometimes it can only benefit you to think outside the box especially if you feel terrible on certain compounds/doses. I also don't disagree with your post in the slightest because you are spot on and most people would do better just keeping things very basic. So instead of 5 compounds and multiple peps timed throughout the day just some basic AAS, hgh and hard training.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

Many overcomplicate drugs but sometimes it's not one size fits all. I have experimented extensively over the years and I have learnt what works for me. Don't get me wrong I often do the most basic cycles because basic works. Many times I will do something like 600mg test and 400mg deca for growing. However, fact is I feel like total shite on some cycles so why not run things so I can feel good. I 100% feel like shit on high test but I still run it from time to time. When cutting I will often do low-mod doses of multiple compounds because I will get horrible side effects if I dose the likes of tren or mast or avar high. So it's not overcomplicating things it's just taking my response into consideration and running smarter cycles. So 40mg test p, 40mg tren a and 40mg avar is ideal for me. If I take higher test and tren I feel anxious. If I take higher avar I get bad acid reflux so over the years I have learnt what compounds and doses suit me best.

Take my current cycle as another example and you may think he is overcomplicating things but I am totally not. I felt like shit during my last blasts with standard blast doses. Now I am running 450mg deca, 60mg test e and 60mg mast e every 3 days and I feel amazing. I am bigger, harder, fuller and I feel great and my sex drive/performance is fantastic. Everyone is different but I have always loved deca. I use a small dose of test and mast to have a test base and an element of DHT and I am using no AI (often cause me side effects). It took me 5 secs to think of this cycle because I know my body and it's easily dosed so I am definitely not wasting my time using different doses of multiple compounds. Now after this cycle I plan to do 600mg test e every 3 days so you can't get more basic than that but I know I will feel so much worse doing that but I am still going to do it as with an improved diet and effective supplementation I can make it work. Although I will definitely need an AI on that cycle.

So whilst far too many put far too much importance on fancy drug protocols sometimes it can only benefit you to think outside the box especially if you feel terrible on certain compounds/doses. I also don't disagree with your post in the slightest because you are spot on and most people would do better just keeping things very basic. So instead of 5 compounds and multiple peps timed throughout the day just some basic AAS, hgh and hard training.

Agreed. There’s a middle ground between “just slam some fucking test bro” and micro dosing and mix/matching 5 exotic drugs to try to form some type of ultimate nerd meathead stack

I can only speak for myself, I like to experiment and continue to learn about my body and how it reacts to drugs as well as the biochemistry behind the scenes. I’ve only dipped my toe in that water really but there’s a lot to learn from that kind of thinking.

I wasn’t interested in it during my 20s. I slammed fucking test and tren and demolished my body with heavy compound lifting and liked it! Now, 10 years down the line, still with a passion for training but multiple injuries and an eye for a sustainable future, I’m happy to spend a few minutes more than a guy like Ironman 580 might want to spend thinking my way through a drug cycle or a missing neurosteroid I need to supplement with to stay balanced or whatever else along those lines...

 

[Glory4God]

Agreed. There’s a middle ground between “just slam some fucking test bro” and micro dosing and mix/matching 5 exotic drugs to try to form some type of ultimate nerd meathead stack

I can only speak for myself, I like to experiment and continue to learn about my body and how it reacts to drugs as well as the biochemistry behind the scenes. I’ve only dipped my toe in that water really but there’s a lot to learn from that kind of thinking.

I wasn’t interested in it during my 20s. I slammed fucking test and tren and demolished my body with heavy compound lifting and liked it! Now, 10 years down the line, still with a passion for training but multiple injuries and an eye for a sustainable future, I’m happy to spend a few minutes more than a guy like Ironman 580 might want to spend thinking my way through a drug cycle or a missing neurosteroid I need to supplement with to stay balanced or whatever else along those lines...

Derek from more plates "Not running test bro, so you'll need to pop your gf's birth control." And he then demonizes AI's

 

[pickapeck]

I did this in the summer of 2018, 200 mg/week test and 600 mg/week primo. It worked, but my estradiol number dropped by 60 - 70% compared to TRT alone. My sex drive was lower than normal through the whole cycle.

Yeah I think it is underappreciated that Primo acts as an anti-estrogen. I see the same thing, even at TRT doses with just 150 mg primo in the mix I get a little low on estrogen. The good thing is my blood work is pristine with the combination of 150 mg test and 100 mg primo and I have no real side effects other than maybe a little lower sex drive than I would like. Primo gets a bad wrap a lot but I think it's very versitile if you understand what the drug can do. I have it in a very simple "old man" cycle right now at 250 mg/w Primo + 400 mg/w EQ and 300 mg/w Test E + 1 iu/d pharma GH. No water retention. No need for an AI. Very good pumps. Very good recovery. Responsive to diet. Lower end joint pain.

 

[juggy38]

I’m pushing test hard for the first time, mostly because Luki’s posts about how if you want to be BIG...it’s gonna take a gram of test to build the base. I’m on 800mg test/500EQ/300DHB, 4iu growth. Telimisartan, aromasin to keep BP in check (hopefully)

 

[aphextwin]

I don't care who says this would be a good idea. I'm all about thinking outside the box but not using test at all is a horrible idea.

 

[m314]

So, in your case, primo did exert downward pressure on your E2 as masteron is generally thought to? I'm only asking because I place more value on your experience than the generic guy on reddit. It almost seemed like overnight primo became an AI on reddit after one or two guys posted about that.

When the people on reddit mentioned that primo lowered E2, I remembered how it always seems to reduce my sex drive. I checked my bloodwork from my last full primo cycle. My E2 was at 16.9 with 200 mg/week test. Normally it would be about 3 times higher on TRT alone. This primo e was lab tested to be 99.9% pure, plus I've gotten the same side effect (lower libido) on all my high primo / low test cycles.

 

[m314]

This is some good info. So if you did that over would you go to 400mg test? What are the options? Add estradiol, dbol, test etc. I’m about to add primo to my stack which is 90mg test p, 225mg parabolan, 200mg mast e. Maybe it’s smarter to run 250-300mg test per week if I’m gonna go with 200mg primo ace per day oral

I would personally run higher test or add low dose trest to offset the low estrogen sides. Adding low dose estradiol itself seems like an interesting experiment, but I haven't tried it.

 

[pimpman]

I don’t get it either. Why not just use 100-150mg test a week with your anabolic of choice and make your own estradiol from the test base.

Because people always want to reinvent the wheel
Usually the ones with shit genetic that have tried everything and instead of realizing that there diet is shit instead of the drugs
They keep trying weird dumb shit

 

[Scuncknuts]

I havent been using it for a while because my gyno is so fucking terrible. When I use it I run as little as possible. You feel tired without it but don't notice it so much.

 

[hawkmoon]

I have said it before, but perhaps because I am also of the same generation as @Sides, I'm not a big fan of test.
Yes, I know it is reputed to be the best way to gain size today, but I think that comes with caveats.

To run a high enough dose, you need to run an AI or SERM, introducing another drug into the equation, and making the "bioidentical" argument for test moot.
And yes, test was "dirty" in the 80s and 90s. It was $10 for 10cc or UpJohn or Steris Cypionate, gave you hair loss, bloat, acne, gyno, and irritability.
Why not use a little test and more Deca and grow without the need for ancillaries?

I have done it both ways, and frankly prefer the way I did things in the old days: 2-300mg T a week with a good anabolic at same or double.
When I was 19 and about 240lbs. I was on 2-400 mg of test and 400 or so Deca a week, or maybe 100-200mg EQ with some anadrol now and then.
This was all "pharma" stuff (boldenone was 50mg /cc Equibold) so no high concentration gear and I only pinned 1 - 2x a week; 3x when on Parabolan for prep.

Now, If I really wanted to add more tissue I would raise the doses, but test will probably never go higher than 5-600mg.
I find 750 is the max I am comfortable with, and grow better from Deca anyway.
If I wasn't 51, and I wanted to grow I would do 3-600Test, 9-1200Deca, 50mg A50, and 5iu of GH. The rest would be down to food and training.
Maybe more test, or more everything would make me bigger, but this is the cliff-face of diminishing returns for me at these doses.

You need a test base if always on (this was also not the practice in the "old days" remember), but personally I view test as a foundation on which to build with other drugs in my toolbox, engineered for anabolism.
Right now I'm on 150mg test with 50mg A50 and doing great.

 

[headtrainer]

I’ve tried it all and my body responds best to using testosterone as the base mass builder and then adding small dosages of another compound like Tren to significantly magnify the results. Dosages are a very individualistic thing.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

If you are already at your goal weight and/or size, i have no problem experimenting around with trt and/or no test cycles. But if you are trying to GROW...hell, test is whats going to get you there. I don't know 1 guy above 260 that did the no test route. The difference between 1g test + 400mg of tren VS 200mg test + 700mg tren is ridiculous.

 

[tren_plz]

Show me a guy running low test that huge....and I dont mean running TRT after he's built his physique by running 1g+ for years.

 

[Samson250]

My hair falls out just holding a vial of test.
Someday I’ll just say F- It.. Shave my head and pump myself full of all the test I want lol.
I have often done Tren E for 4-5 weeks at 20mg M-F and 2iu gh M-F year long and I like it. I started with that combo after years off and had a “feeling” of well being like others have talked about but it was because of the years off. I’m on this combo now getting ready to add Test P which I’ve never tried. I don’t expect any less hair loss except maybe it will stop sooner than on the Test E.

All I mean to say is for me and my goals at 41 i can get away without test but I’m going to keep trying to find a way to use it if it takes every last hair on my head. And it probably will.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

I have said it before, but perhaps because I am also of the same generation as @Sides, I'm not a big fan of test.
Yes, I know it is reputed to be the best way to gain size today, but I think that comes with caveats.

To run a high enough dose, you need to run an AI or SERM, introducing another drug into the equation, and making the "bioidentical" argument for test moot.
And yes, test was "dirty" in the 80s and 90s. It was $10 for 10cc or UpJohn or Steris Cypionate, gave you hair loss, bloat, acne, gyno, and irritability.
Why not use a little test and more Deca and grow without the need for ancillaries?

I have done it both ways, and frankly prefer the way I did things in the old days: 2-300mg T a week with a good anabolic at same or double.
When I was 19 and about 240lbs. I was on 2-400 mg of test and 400 or so Deca a week, or maybe 100-200mg EQ with some anadrol now and then.
This was all "pharma" stuff (boldenone was 50mg /cc Equibold) so no high concentration gear and I only pinned 1 - 2x a week; 3x when on Parabolan for prep.

Now, If I really wanted to add more tissue I would raise the doses, but test will probably never go higher than 5-600mg.
I find 750 is the max I am comfortable with, and grow better from Deca anyway.
If I wasn't 51, and I wanted to grow I would do 3-600Test, 9-1200Deca, 50mg A50, and 5iu of GH. The rest would be down to food and training.
Maybe more test, or more everything would make me bigger, but this is the cliff-face of diminishing returns for me at these doses.

You need a test base if always on (this was also not the practice in the "old days" remember), but personally I view test as a foundation on which to build with other drugs in my toolbox, engineered for anabolism.
Right now I'm on 150mg test with 50mg A50 and doing great.

Have you ever tried progesterone with test? I always thought I was “estrogen sensitive” but after being on progesterone cream for only a week so far it’s looking more and more like my “estrogen sensitivity” was just progesterone deficiency from years of TRT.

Lot of guys drop their AIs and SERMs after going on replacement doses of bio identical progesterone.

Progesterone also converts to Allopregnanolone in the body via 5AR, a potent GABAergic neurosteroid which counteracts the mentioned testosterone irritability.

 

[goback2013]

Have you ever tried progesterone with test? I always thought I was “estrogen sensitive” but after being on progesterone cream for only a week so far it’s looking more and more like my “estrogen sensitivity” was just progesterone deficiency from years of TRT.

Lot of guys drop their AIs and SERMs after going on replacement doses of bio identical progesterone.

after the first couple days of progesterone application, did you notice increased urination ?

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

after the first couple days of progesterone application, did you notice increased urination ?

I noticed decreased nighttime urination. I usually piss like 2-3 times a night, am in saw palmetto to control it but progesterone dropped it to once a night in the early morning 1-2 hours before I fully wake up.

 

[cmryan]

Have you ever tried progesterone with test? I always thought I was “estrogen sensitive” but after being on progesterone cream for only a week so far it’s looking more and more like my “estrogen sensitivity” was just progesterone deficiency from years of TRT.

Lot of guys drop their AIs and SERMs after going on replacement doses of bio identical progesterone.

Progesterone also converts to Allopregnanolone in the body via 5AR, a potent GABAergic neurosteroid which counteracts the mentioned testosterone irritability.

What did your progesterone bloodwork look like? Or what spurred the decision to add progesterone cream?