Parenabol/EQ and "Gurus"

[maldorf]

How much tren were you using?

Its been a long time and I dont remember for certain. I think usually about 100 mg EOD of the acetate ester. Perhaps 150 mg EOD at most. Started out using the pellets, which seemed stronger. Later on using powder from China.

 

[ripriot]

I used a lot of both EQ and tren, and for me my hematocrit didn't get high until I used tren.

When you discovered you had a higher hematocrit did you do any further testing?

 

[maldorf]

When you discovered you had a higher hematocrit did you do any further testing?

I stopped the tren and then cut back to just 250 mg/wk of testosterone. A cruise. I would retest my hemoglobin each week. I bought a meter to test my own at home. It seemed like once it got up real high that going on the cruise it wouldnt go down very fast at all. It stopped rising but didnt go down much. In years prior before i started using tren ,I didnt have it get over normal range. Id use up to 750 mg/wk of EQ too. One factor though, when I started having problems with high hematocrit I was cruising instead of getting off and going clean for 2 or 3 months. This is just my experience and it is certainly no controlled experiment. For me personally, I didnt start having heart problems until I started in with tren.

One time when I was using it transdermally, the pellets, my BP got up to about 175/120 or so a few hours after applying it to my skin. It probably always got high and i didnt even know it. Only reason I knew it the one time was because I applied it prior to going to the doctor and they measured it there.

 

[TheOtherOne55]

Im interested in this EQ module Victor is set to put out.
But i do admit, i dont any think really any of us are scared of it right now.

Its counter-intuitive of how we look at tren.
We know tren works, but we fear it. We all know the shit it does to our bodies. Side effects + bloodwork, it just doesn't look good. So we all think to ourselves, "well fuck...if it's this shitty now, imagine what it'll look like 20 years from now."
But with EQ, we arent reallllly seeing any scary shit (yes, i understand some guys have bad hemo problems with it) but for the most part, it looked at as safe and has been for years. We're all hearing this EQ stuff and thinking, "really?"

It's as if we turned to a reckless alcoholic who is chugged whiskey and said, "hey, actually...see that Coors Light over there? THAT'S the bad shit man." So its understandable where we're all coming from.

It just makes me hungry to read Victor's info. He's a smart dude.
Honestly, I'm ALWAYS down to learn something new.
We all know that Gear + Nutrition + training is a learn-as-you-go hobby.

 

[ripriot]

That's great insight. I veiw the hemocrite level being useless without other information. Unless its almost 60. My uncle lived with an elevated hemocrite his whole life. He is 73 years old and still alive.

 

[ripriot]

Im interested in this EQ module Victor is set to put out.
But i do admit, i dont any think really any of us are scared of it right now.

Its counter-intuitive of how we look at tren.
We know tren works, but we fear it. We all know the shit it does to our bodies. Side effects + bloodwork, it just doesn't look good. So we all think to ourselves, "well fuck...if it's this shitty now, imagine what it'll look like 20 years from now."
But with EQ, we arent reallllly seeing any scary shit (yes, i understand some guys have bad hemo problems with it) but for the most part, it looked at as safe and has been for years. We're all hearing this EQ stuff and thinking, "really?"

It's as if we turned to a reckless alcoholic who is chugged whiskey and said, "hey, actually...see that Coors Light over there? THAT'S the bad shit man." So its understandable where we're all coming from.

It just makes me hungry to read Victor's info. He's a smart dude.
Honestly, I'm ALWAYS down to learn something new.
We all know that Gear + Nutrition + training is a learn-as-you-go hobby.

IMO it is comparable to an alcoholic as well. An alcoholic quits drinking at age 35 but his cirrhosis of the liver shows up at age 55. Lot of studies done on animals that show elevated kidney and liver numbers while taking EQ (I do not give my dog EQ. Other AAS yes). In an AAS user it is not the acute onset of kidney disease, but rather a smoldering of kidney disease that has developed over the years (ultrasounds are much better then bloodwork). There are more studies of bodybuilders going through kidney, liver, and cardic problems then studies researching how the AAS effects the body biological proccesses of humans.

 

[VictorBlack]

IMO it is comparable to an alcoholic as well. An alcoholic quits drinking at age 35 but his cirrhosis of the liver shows up at age 55. Lot of studies done on animals that show elevated kidney and liver numbers while taking EQ (I do not give my dog EQ. Other AAS yes). In an AAS user it is not the acute onset of kidney disease, but rather a smoldering of kidney disease that has developed over the years (ultrasounds are much better then bloodwork). There are more studies of bodybuilders going through kidney, liver, and cardic problems then studies researching how the AAS effects the body biological proccesses of humans.

Kudos, kudos kudos !!!!

Few guys get this

1, Something is causing kidney issues in Bodybuilders - that is fact

Now its either " everything we do" and to some extent that is true agreed

" its everything"




High Androgens place stress on the Kidneys

Hypertension places stress on the Kidneys

Elevated Angiotensin II places Stress on the Kidneys

Yes to all

But past that


2. Is it plausible that some agent in common use might be "worse" that others ?

Fuck its not like I am " guessing" here we have the evidence

The problem for guys is that evidence is in surrogate models

Why is the evidence not in Humans ? Because the Drugs is NOT approved for Human Use

All we see is the Problems is Humans Kidney issues are a problem in our Tribe !!

Here we see the level of stress in a rodent kidney study, the difference between Eq and Winstrol

I am not " guessing" guys are just in denial

or haven't read the evidence

or cant understand it..

 

[ripriot]

Kudos, kudos kudos !!!!

Few guys get this

1, Something is causing kidney issues in Bodybuilders - that is fact

Now its either " everything we do" and to some extent that is true agreed

" its everything"

View attachment 130004


High Androgens place stress on the Kidneys

Hypertension places stress on the Kidneys

Elevated Angiotensin II places Stress on the Kidneys

Yes to all

But past that


2. Is it plausible that some agent in common use might be "worse" that others ?

Fuck its not like I am " guessing" here we have the evidence

The problem for guys is that evidence is in surrogate models

Why is the evidence not in Humans ? Because the Drugs is NOT approved for Human Use

All we see is the Problems is Humans Kidney issues are a problem in our Tribe !!

Here we see the level of stress in a rodent kidney study, the difference between Eq and Winstrol

I am not " guessing" guys are just in denial

or haven't read the evidence

or cant understand it..



View attachment 130003

My perception is people are closed minded or in denial whether it's BB's or society. And the people who say studies exist in a vacuum. Do they not realize that the AAS, and medication they are taking was developed with clinical research (studies)?
Attached is a study from 2014 about EQ. Maybe it's one you haven't seen.

 

[N.L....M.....]

Kudos, kudos kudos !!!!

Few guys get this

1, Something is causing kidney issues in Bodybuilders - that is fact

Now its either " everything we do" and to some extent that is true agreed

" its everything"

View attachment 130004


High Androgens place stress on the Kidneys

Hypertension places stress on the Kidneys

Elevated Angiotensin II places Stress on the Kidneys

Yes to all

But past that


2. Is it plausible that some agent in common use might be "worse" that others ?

Fuck its not like I am " guessing" here we have the evidence

The problem for guys is that evidence is in surrogate models

Why is the evidence not in Humans ? Because the Drugs is NOT approved for Human Use

All we see is the Problems is Humans Kidney issues are a problem in our Tribe !!

Here we see the level of stress in a rodent kidney study, the difference between Eq and Winstrol

I am not " guessing" guys are just in denial

or haven't read the evidence

or cant understand it..



View attachment 130003

What real evidence on humans? You showed a rat model, we’re not rats. So far cited 2 small short term studies that didn’t tell anything about the participants. One was with 20 people from the 70s.
I’ve never had it negatively effect my blood work. I’ve never met a single person who has. I’d imagine if there was some long term damage or damage down the road then I would seen something, anything to indicate it. Even slight elevation in liver values.
I no longer take eq because I am prone to anxiety and panic attacks and as one could imagine it definitely had an impact there.
I’m not in denial or an advocate for eq but I honestly just don’t see what these studies show in the real world in otherwise normally healthy individuals.
When what I see in the real world doesn’t line up with a study then I’m not going to dismiss reality and look at the study.

 

[VictorBlack]

My perception is people are closed minded or in denial whether it's BB's or society. And the people who say studies exist in a vacuum. Do they not realize that the AAS, and medication they are taking was developed with clinical research (studies)?
Attached is a study from 2014 about EQ. Maybe it's one you haven't seen.

Thank you

As I mentioned above I have dragged out virtually every study on this drug we have

they all say the same thing..

either at tiny dosages in Humans or in massive dosage in Surrogates

or in real world practical BB dosages

More Stress than Testerone

and what benefit does it offer by comparison ?

None..

Just so you can use 2 Androstanes in a Stack

It makes no sense..

 

[VictorBlack]

What real evidence on humans? You showed a rat model, we’re not rats. So far cited 2 small short term studies that didn’t tell anything about the participants. One was with 20 people from the 70s.
I’ve never had it negatively effect my blood work. I’ve never met a single person who has. I’d imagine if there was some long term damage or damage down the road then I would seen something, anything to indicate it. Even slight elevation in liver values.
I no longer take eq because I am prone to anxiety and panic attacks and as one could imagine it definitely had an impact there.
I’m not in denial or an advocate for eq but I honestly just don’t see what these studies show in the real world in otherwise normally healthy individuals.
When what I see in the real world doesn’t line up with a study then I’m not going to dismiss reality and look at the study.

I accept your push back

We have limited Human Use Data in any Drugs that was never approved for Human Use

This is why I struggle with Open Forums

" Its a Rat Model"

" We are not Rats"

" I have been using it for years and I am fine"

I have tried so often and always, always this

I will let you marinate on this

This is " why" I do behind the "paywall"

So I can just do what I do, and not have to argue with " but its a Rat Model" and " I feel fine"

Something is hurting BB kidneys..

If you don't know anyone with Kidney Problems after 10 years of this.. what can I say

I am trying to help haha

 

[VictorBlack]

Lets agree here guys

If you are not interested in what " Rat Models" might tell

If you must have Human Clinical Data to be interested

Then I have little to offer here

This drug has never been in Human Clinical Use

There is limited Human Clinical Data, what we do have all supported the surrogate data

But there is literally zero point in me making the effort here

Zero its a lost game before it begins..

Thank you for your consideration

 

[ripriot]

What real evidence on humans? You showed a rat model, we’re not rats. So far cited 2 small short term studies that didn’t tell anything about the participants. One was with 20 people from the 70s.
I’ve never had it negatively effect my blood work. I’ve never met a single person who has. I’d imagine if there was some long term damage or damage down the road then I would seen something, anything to indicate it. Even slight elevation in liver values.
I no longer take eq because I am prone to anxiety and panic attacks and as one could imagine it definitely had an impact there.
I’m not in denial or an advocate for eq but I honestly just don’t see what these studies show in the real world in otherwise normally healthy individuals.
When what I see in the real world doesn’t line up with a study then I’m not going to dismiss reality and look at the study.

Your first 13 words show your ignorance and closed mind.

Most of the mice and rats used in medical trials are inbred so they are almost identical genetically helping to make the results of medical trials more uniform. Another reason they're used as models in medical testing is that they have served as the preferred species for animal models due to their anatomical, physiological, and genetic similarity to humans.

 

[N.L....M.....]

I accept your push back

We have limited Human Use Data in any Drugs that was never approved for Human Use

This is why I struggle with Open Forums

" Its a Rat Model"

" We are not Rats"

" I have been using it for years and I am fine"

I have tried so often and always, always this

I will let you marinate on this

This is " why" I do behind the "paywall"

So I can just do what I do, and not have to argue with " but its a Rat Model" and " I feel fine"

Something is hurting BB kidneys..

If you don't know anyone with Kidney Problems after 10 years of this.. what can I say

I am trying to help haha

Let me clear up one thing I have a ton of respect for you and you are a plethora of knowledge that is extremely useful. Nothing I have said was in any way meant as disrespectful if it came across that way. I appreciate you being here and even responding.

I’m not saying I don’t know anyone without health issues or kidney damage. It’s just I’ve never met anyone who could contribute it to eq. I’ve never had the impact on myself either.

 

[VictorBlack]

Your first 13 words show your ignorance and closed mind.

Most of the mice and rats used in medical trials are inbred so they are almost identical genetically helping to make the results of medical trials more uniform. Another reason they're used as models in medical testing is that they have served as the preferred species for animal models due to their anatomical, physiological, and genetic similarity to humans.

Many dont even understand " why' we use rodents

It would be unethical to do the type of damage to organs in testing we need to see to draw meaningful conclusion

often Rat models are more insightful for BB than "HRT dosages" in Humans

This is something that I am not going to lie on

What is the point of even trying..

and why I run a private site.. where I can just do what I do..

 

[VictorBlack]

Let me clear up one thing I have a ton of respect for you and you are a plethora of knowledge that is extremely useful. Nothing I have said was in any way meant as disrespectful if it came across that way. I appreciate you being here and even responding.

I’m not saying I don’t know anyone without health issues or kidney damage. It’s just I’ve never met anyone who could contribute it to eq. I’ve never had the impact on myself either.

buddy I am not offended

and its not " you"

Its just the nature of Forums

Tomorrow it will be BillYbigPants44 and the next Day Juliesmom45

Honestly its relentless.. its never ending and never gets better

I am not offended

and its not " you"

Its just the nature of Forums

One has to accept it or move on and I am way too busy to post for free and deal with BillYbigPants44 and the next Day Juliesmom45 as well

That is just honest

 

[ripriot]

Many dont even understand " why' we use rodents

It would be unethical to do the type of damage to organs in testing we need to see to draw meaningful conclusion

often Rat models are more insightful for BB than "HRT dosages" in Humans

This is something that I am not going to lie on

What is the point of even trying..

and why I run a private site.. where I can just do what I do..

Most people don't understand what a control group is. How many humans want to go into a cell to be studied.

 

[ripriot]

Let me clear up one thing I have a ton of respect for you and you are a plethora of knowledge that is extremely useful. Nothing I have said was in any way meant as disrespectful if it came across that way. I appreciate you being here and even responding.

I’m not saying I don’t know anyone without health issues or kidney damage. It’s just I’ve never met anyone who could contribute it to eq. I’ve never had the impact on myself either.

How can you say eq caused your kidney damage if you run it for a few cycles? Your blood work can show all normal and still be actively damaging your kidneys. Hence, why ultrasounds are much better then blood work. Blood work just triggers that more test is needed. If you catch kidney damage soon enough then it is acute, and your body can repair. However, you don’t always have the luxury to catch acute kidney damage because your kidneys can filter much more then what we put them through in a day. Hence, why you can live with one kidney but are born with two. So, this damage is occurring, but your body is maintaining but slowly taking away your renal function. This slow progress of damage is when biological markers become abnormal and kidney damage becomes chronic.

For example, take a person who is suicidal. So, they decide to drink anti-freeze to kill themselves. However, someone finds them passed out in a coma. The hospital saves them by putting them on dialysis. Dialysis cures them to almost complete renal function of 80% (antifreeze is much more toxic then EQ).

If you catch renal failure fast enough you can fix the acute disease. If you don’t catch it then slowly turns into a decreased renal function or worse a terminal disease. Hence, why people’s kidney damage has been smoldering and not found by a single occurrence unless it’s a toxic 1 or toxic 2 or genetics.

 

[VictorBlack]

How can you say eq caused your kidney damage if you run it for a few cycles? Your blood work can show all normal and still be actively damaging your kidneys. Hence, why ultrasounds are much better then blood work. Blood work just triggers that more test is needed.

I try to use this analogy for the masses..

Its not without flaws but its pretty close

When I was in the Military I smoked.. I smoked for 10 years

I have never had Cancer

So stop trying to tell me Smoking causes Cancer

I am just fine

as stupid as that sounds people forget for 50 years that was the debate

There was serious debate if smoking was a carcinogen

I don't think anyone ever got cancer after smoking for 3 years

Now do it for 30 years and lets talk

I have thought about this and I am going to withdraw here

This is not good use of my time

Trying to convince people that AAS use can cause damage to your Brain, your Heart, your kidneys

That there might be mitigation models lets discuss what they are is of far greater interest to me

If you are interested in my work I welcome your support

But honestly " I use boldenone" and " I am fine"

I am very much done with that crowd..

Continuing here is only going to lead to conflict I know that

If you are interested in my work I welcome your support if not I respect that fully

Thank you

 

[maldorf]

What I dont understand is how Trenbolone is being offered up as being safer to take than EQ. To me that is just ludicrous.