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excessive use of insulin

One thing I can say is that if you are super heavy, unless you have miraculous genetics then you must use insulin during prep because your own metabolism will just eat you up and you will be too flat.
I learned this lesson the hard way this year - my metabolism has been eating me up the last 2 weeks no matter how much I eat. Put insulin back in regularly this week and weight's starting to go back up.
 
Yes, I always use insulin when cutting, and 80% of my clients use it until the last day before the competition. For classic physique competitors, I prefer to give up insuin a few weeks before the competition because they usually struggle with the weight limit and then insulin can interfere with it.
But this is my method and I understand perfectly well that there are other schools, but each one works, so choose the best one for you.
One thing I can say is that if you are super heavy, unless you have miraculous genetics then you must use insulin during prep because your own metabolism will just eat you up and you will be too flat.

It's eye-opening to hear this from you, as most would always say that insulin and cutting do not go well together and will hinder your fat loss progress. I'm sure you use it in different ways depending on the client, but would you say that, generally speaking, you still try to use it before and after training?
 
It's eye-opening to hear this from you, as most would always say that insulin and cutting do not go well together and will hinder your fat loss progress. I'm sure you use it in different ways depending on the client, but would you say that, generally speaking, you still try to use it before and after training?
Yes, of course, it is individual, but most clients use insulin around training, mainly before training, in my opinion, pre-workout insulin is the best option during the preparation because it helps to maintain training parameters at a high level, which translates into less muscle loss during cutting
 
Yes, of course, it is individual, but most clients use insulin around training, mainly before training, in my opinion, pre-workout insulin is the best option during the preparation because it helps to maintain training parameters at a high level, which translates into less muscle loss during cutting
Smart use of insulin always leans me out. Particularly during contest prep where almost all of my daily carbs are in and around my workout. This ensures that it gets shuttled into the muscles and not stored as fat
 
No offense friend, but since you've only used humalog after training, your experience with insulin is crawling. I have been using insulin for about 11-12 years and I have tried everything, starting with insulin only after training, R humulin 2-3 times a day, humalog with every meal, before and during training, various combinations of lanthus and short insulin, and I am still careful that I don't know much about it.
I will give you one simple example why the use of humalog before training is beneficial - first of all, insulin will cause ATP to recover faster after the set is finished, so it will automatically translate into the best training and, consequently, a greater training stimulus for growth. The second thing, regeneration does not start after training, but only when you cause muscle damage. It doesn't work like that - "the body - hmm, this set was very hard, it caused a lot of damage to my muscles, but I will not start repair them yet, because the owner of this body still has an hour of training, so I'll wait" lol
No offense taken Luki I respect your and everyone's opinion on the matter. We are here to discuss and learn from everyone's experience.

I don't however subscribe to a certain way of doing things because perhaps Milos or other people do them.

Now yes you have a lot of experience using insulin and you know what works best for you. However I do know biology and biochemistry and I know how the body works.

Without going deeper into the science of how actually things work because it won't make a difference since people tend to believe what they want and certain people tend to follow just because so and so says so.

Whether we like it or not, the body works in certain ways and will not change because Milos says so.

Now if anyone
 
I couldn't edit the post further ran out of time.
 
LOL
Well u know the answer then—taking preWO insulin requires intra WO carbs.
So if you are going hypo, then for whatever reason you took too much insulin.
We've discussed this a million times on here—don't let the insulin amount dictate your carbs, have your carbs dictate the insulin amount. So you must not have done that huh?
If you "aren't feeling well" during preWO insulin yet feel fine at other times....its because you're taking too much insulin.

Insulin has a learning curve. If you don't think it works or are feeling off, its 100% because you are taking incorrect amounts.
That's all. I've had that EXACT feeling you describe....sweating like crazy, slightly light headed. EVERY BBer knows that hypo feeling. You/Me/every BBer/Everyone here took too much. You address the dosage accordingly and try again.
Yes I agree and know how to take insulin and have had wise coaches teach me also, but no matter what I go hypo during a workout, I don't know why, I can't be that insulin sensitive, 2iu of insulin and made two intra workout drinks with 50 grams of karbolyn each (1 just in case). I sipped the first during my workout, started feeling shitty and started sweating, so drank the rest and felt better then did some heavy t-bar rows and immediately after boom I start feeling shitty again and I can feel my blood sugar dropping, so started sipping the second drink and just ended the fucking workout, I ended up drinking about half of the other drink before my blood sugar finally settled, these drinks also had taurine, 10g creatine, 10g glutamine in them. This was my last attempt at pre workout slin 2 fucking iu! Now explain how I'm THAT fucking insulin sensitive 😒
 
Again why do you need to feed your muscles while training? Recovery happens after. Glycogen super compensation happens after. The only thing you need to do during training is train.

I think I'll put this to rest.
B/c During training you are flushing them with blood and blood is how nutrients are transported to the muscle. Yes, your muscles are getting blood in there 24/7, but clearly they get a lot more during training.
 
"Insulin (/ˈɪn.sjʊ.lɪn/,[5][6] from Latin insula, 'island') is a peptide hormone produced by beta cells of the pancreatic islets; it is considered to be the main anabolic hormone of the body.[7] It regulates the metabolism of carbohydrates, fats and protein by promoting the absorption of glucose from the blood into liver, fat and skeletal muscle cells.[8]"

People should just read the definition of the words, and then go back and watch the whole picture...

"The actions of insulin on the global human metabolism level include:
The actions of insulin (indirect and direct) on cells include:
  • Stimulates the uptake of glucose – Insulin decreases blood glucose concentration by inducing **broken link removed** by the cells. This is possible because Insulin causes the insertion of the GLUT4 transporter in the cell membranes of muscle and fat tissues which allows glucose to enter the cell.[70]
  • Increased fat synthesis – insulin forces fat cells to take in blood glucose, which is converted into triglycerides; decrease of insulin causes the reverse.[75]
  • Increased esterification of fatty acids – forces adipose tissue to make neutral fats (i.e., triglycerides) from fatty acids; decrease of insulin causes the reverse.[75]
  • Decreased lipolysis – forces reduction in conversion of fat cell lipid stores into blood fatty acids and glycerol; decrease of insulin causes the reverse.[75]
  • Induce glycogen synthesis – When glucose levels are high, insulin induces the formation of glycogen by the activation of the hexokinase enzyme, which adds a phosphate group in glucose, thus resulting in a molecule that cannot exit the cell. At the same time, insulin inhibits the enzyme glucose-6-phosphatase, which removes the phosphate group. These two enzymes are key for the formation of glycogen. Also, insulin activates the enzymes phosphofructokinase and glycogen synthase which are responsible for glycogen synthesis.[76]
  • Decreased gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis – decreases production of glucose from noncarbohydrate substrates, primarily in the liver (the vast majority of endogenous insulin arriving at the liver never leaves the liver); decrease of insulin causes glucose production by the liver from assorted substrates.[75]
  • Decreased proteolysis – decreasing the breakdown of protein[75]
  • Decreased autophagy – decreased level of degradation of damaged organelles. Postprandial levels inhibit autophagy completely.[77]
  • Increased amino acid uptake – forces cells to absorb circulating amino acids; decrease of insulin inhibits absorption.[75]
  • Arterial muscle tone – forces arterial wall muscle to relax, increasing blood flow, especially in microarteries; decrease of insulin reduces flow by allowing these muscles to contract.[78]
  • Increase in the secretion of hydrochloric acid by parietal cells in the stomach.[citation needed]
  • Increased potassium uptake – forces cells synthesizing glycogen (a very spongy, "wet" substance, that increases the content of intracellular water, and its accompanying K+ ions)[79] to absorb potassium from the extracellular fluids; lack of insulin inhibits absorption. Insulin's increase in cellular potassium uptake lowers potassium levels in blood plasma. This possibly occurs via insulin-induced translocation of the Na+/K+-ATPase to the surface of skeletal muscle cells.[80][81]
  • Decreased renal sodium excretion.[82]
Insulin also influences other body functions, such as vascular compliance and cognition. Once insulin enters the human brain, it enhances learning and memory and benefits verbal memory in particular.[83] Enhancing brain insulin signaling by means of intranasal insulin administration also enhances the acute thermoregulatory and glucoregulatory response to food intake, suggesting that central nervous insulin contributes to the co-ordination of a wide variety of homeostatic or regulatory processes in the human body.[84] Insulin also has stimulatory effects on gonadotropin-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, thus favoring fertility.[85]"
This took me 5 minutes on wikipedia....

@BigNJ you think that insulin is ONLY a storage hormone, when instead it does also a lot of other interesting metabolic effects than just storage.
To obtain those effects we need to pay the bill in carbohydrates and sides if we overdo it.

@luki7788 uses insulin in a particular "window" of time to activate acute and/or chronical effects.

People should just watch the whole picture, and not a single detail.
 
No offense taken Luki I respect your and everyone's opinion on the matter. We are here to discuss and learn from everyone's experience.

I don't however subscribe to a certain way of doing things because perhaps Milos or other people do them.

Now yes you have a lot of experience using insulin and you know what works best for you. However I do know biology and biochemistry and I know how the body works.

Without going deeper into the science of how actually things work because it won't make a difference since people tend to believe what they want and certain people tend to follow just because so and so says so.

Whether we like it or not, the body works in certain ways and will not change because Milos says so.

Now if anyone
I did not want to write this but I will write - there is no shortage of so-called gurus who ridicule all theories that have been working for years and built the best figures in history.Of course are supported by the latest scientific research etc. One thing only connects all these "gurus" - when it comes time to show how they look and what effects they or their clients obtained it suddenly turns out that they have nothing to boast about ...
I wonder what the muscles that you built by following your method look like or what are the effects of your kilents if you have them. Just please don't write something like - "I don't follow muscle mass, I have other goals in life"
 
Yes I agree and know how to take insulin and have had wise coaches teach me also, but no matter what I go hypo during a workout, I don't know why, I can't be that insulin sensitive, 2iu of insulin and made two intra workout drinks with 50 grams of karbolyn each (1 just in case). I sipped the first during my workout, started feeling shitty and started sweating, so drank the rest and felt better then did some heavy t-bar rows and immediately after boom I start feeling shitty again and I can feel my blood sugar dropping, so started sipping the second drink and just ended the fucking workout, I ended up drinking about half of the other drink before my blood sugar finally settled, these drinks also had taurine, 10g creatine, 10g glutamine in them. This was my last attempt at pre workout slin 2 fucking iu! Now explain how I'm THAT fucking insulin sensitive
Yes, some people are that sensitive. They had to test my sensitivity once at the hospital and the tech that did it was shocked at the results he was seeing. Im the same way as you.
 
Quick insulin question, I was told that if you inject novokin r intramuscular, it has the same onset as humalog? Any truth to this? Getting humalog is a pain. R is cake.
 
Quick insulin question, I was told that if you inject novokin r intramuscular, it has the same onset as humalog? Any truth to this? Getting humalog is a pain. R is cake.
not the same no. But it is faster than sub q novolin r
 
Quick insulin question, I was told that if you inject novokin r intramuscular, it has the same onset as humalog? Any truth to this? Getting humalog is a pain. R is cake.
I've read the same and I found it to be just as fast acting and much more potent per iu. For example, I've taken 4iu of humalog subq ≈20 minutes pre-workout a number of times and been fine just sipping on a shake of EAAs through my worklout. I injected 4iu novolin-r IM and expected a similar outcome, but about 25 minutes later I was sweaty, dizzy, numb tongue. I tested it a second time several days later while at home and nearly identical effect. Learned my lesson. So, now I always follow-up an IM pin of novolin-r with some carbs and/or EAAs nearly immediately. So, at least for ME, novolin-r IM is at least as fast and more potent.
 
I did not want to write this but I will write - there is no shortage of so-called gurus who ridicule all theories that have been working for years and built the best figures in history.Of course are supported by the latest scientific research etc. One thing only connects all these "gurus" - when it comes time to show how they look and what effects they or their clients obtained it suddenly turns out that they have nothing to boast about ...
I wonder what the muscles that you built by following your method look like or what are the effects of your kilents if you have them. Just please don't write something like - "I don't follow muscle mass, I have other goals in life"
I did not want to write this either, but you obviously yourself don't know why you do things. And just because you coach people does not mean anything. Any good coach knows why he's doing what he's doing, not because pro A or pro B said so.
If you want to have a logical discussion stop throwing this shit in people's faces that you train this and that. There are many coaches that don't even bodybuild and know what they are doing because they know how the body works.
It baffles me when a "big" dude here says I do this and that and it must be true because so and so are doing it, guess what, there are many bodybuilders that don't do what you preach and are as big or bigger than the ones who do. This shit here leads to misinformation and people getting harmed.
 
Insulin ,Glycogen & ATP in Muslce Tissue



Assuming the person is not diabetic, Endogenous and Exogenous insulin have the same effects and actions in the body.

Energy Yielding Pathways -> ATP

ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) is the only chemical form of energy our bodies can use to perform “mechanical” work.

There are several pathways that yield to ATP production, Oxygen dependent and none oxygen dependent.



  • Glycogen to Glucose to lactate to ATP none oxygen dependent: fast but limited by glycogen.
  • Glycogen to Glucose to CO2 to ATP Oxygen dependent: slow and limited by glycogen.
  • Triglycerides to Fatty Acids to CO2 to ATP: Slow, needs lots of oxygen but unlimited.
  • Muscle Protein to Amino Acids to CO2 to ATP: exceedingly rare.


About 80% of glycogen is stored in the muscle, the rest is stored in the liver and other tissue. So muscle tissue is the biggest storage tank for glycogen, and glycogen is the main contributor to ATP followed by triglycerides. When muscle glycogen dip to about 40%, triglycerides surrounding muscle tissue start contributing to ATP to get the job done, in our world is muscle contractions.



Glycogen Synthase

Glycogen synthase (GS) is a major enzyme that is involved in glycogen synthesis. As you will see later, muscle glycogen is limited because of GS.

GS regulates the amounts of glycogen synthesis. It also controls the rate by which glycogen is synthesized. This is important for the discussion of exogenous insulin use to replenish muscle glycogen during a workout where people tend to think that they can shuttle as much glycogen as they want into the muscle cell just because they used X amount of Insulin. Does not work this way.



Insulin

A lot of people are under the impression that insulin “shuttles” macronutrients to their respective storage sites, example, insulin “shuttles or drives” carbs into the muscle cell, protein int muscle cell and fat into fat cells.

Insulin does not really work like that. It’s not a bus on the highway picking up glucose hitchhikers and driving them to their destination.

In the presence of insulin few things happen:

  • Insulin stimulates glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis after exercise
  • Insulin will translocate Glut4 to the surface of the cell to be ready for glucose uptake
  • Insulin prevents muscle protein breakdown
Without GLUT4 translocation, glycogen synthesis will not take place. Insulin insensitivity will render GLUT4 useless.

GLUT4 can be translocated by the presence of insulin AND by muscle contractions (Exercise)



Going back to the idea of using Insulin Immediately pre workout, and assuming that the workout is not a very long one what will actually happen when we take that insulin shot pre workout and consume carbs?

As we know, Insulin does stimulate glycogen synthesis it will translocate GLUT4 as well, so all is good so far. (Not going to mention amino acids here).

But we all know that, our bodies do produce insulin as well, so if you are adamant about taking carbs during the workout, what would be the point of using Insulin? What is the logic?

Since we know muscle contraction will activate GLUT4 translocation and we know that glycogen synthesis is limited due to GS (Glycogen Synthase Enzyme), we could just drink a bit of carbs and let our body use it’s own insulin to achieve our goal.

Some will argue that replenishing ATP is also why we need the exogenous insulin pre workout, the answer is no, UNLESS your workouts are way too long. Plus we do know that muscle triglycerides will contribute to ATP once muscle glycogen dip below a certain point.

For those people who follow a Carbohydrate Cyclical diet, as in high, low and medium days, think about when do you glycogen super compensate? It is after the LOW days. We also know for a fact that Glycogen supercompensation can ONLY be achieved when the body is at rest and glycogen depleted to a point. So, no you cannot super compensate during workout out.



Our bodies are most prime to amino acid uptake and glucose uptake AFTER a workout not during or before. Besides, taking an insulin shot pre workout will overlap the insulin shot done immediately post workout. Does not make any sense.

Also, the overuse of insulin will lead to insulin insensitivity and that’s why some people who take a shit load of Insulin and think hey, we need all that damn insulin, are probably insulin insensitive to a point but they don’t know it.

What does this all mean, it means if you use insulin, use it sparingly and in the right time. Now obviously if you are using GH, I would through in some insulin as well, but just fucking jabbing insulin for the fuck of getting more ATP is fucking ridiculous and nonsense.









 
I've read the same and I found it to be just as fast acting and much more potent per iu. For example, I've taken 4iu of humalog subq ≈20 minutes pre-workout a number of times and been fine just sipping on a shake of EAAs through my worklout. I injected 4iu novolin-r IM and expected a similar outcome, but about 25 minutes later I was sweaty, dizzy, numb tongue. I tested it a second time several days later while at home and nearly identical effect. Learned my lesson. So, now I always follow-up an IM pin of novolin-r with some carbs and/or EAAs nearly immediately. So, at least for ME, novolin-r IM is at least as fast and more potent.
Thank you so much for this information and your personal experience. I will report back on my experience tomorrow.
 
This is ending up how so many things in bodybuilding do these days - science says vs. real world experience.

BOTH can be right.

The body isn't a textbook, things don't work the same for everybody. If they did, we'd an easy protocol for every bodybuilder to follow and tons of superheavyweights at 6% walking around. That's never going to happen.
 

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