Muscle mass and test dose

[Knight9]

Not doing an AI because you aren't getting any sides is a huge health risk IMO, AIs are overused when people are trying to do TRT or people who are gyno paranoid (extremely common or they have a little gyno and overuse AIs to try and keep it down, another mistake). Estradiol is nasty and should be kept in check, it just has to be done correctly.

It seems to me that over the last few years, an E2 of 50-60 on trt or a cycle is much more widely accepted than it was prior. I'm not telling you anything you don't know but estrogen will boost HDL and is cardioprotective. Some people like Rand McClain have said in the past that 15-21 is a normal e2 range and you should try to keep within it - but I think an appropriate escalation in relation to test is probably good for you.

 

[Ruhlfreak55]

Estradiol and Testosterone compete at the receptor, think of this way, T is basically like nolvadex to E and E is like nolvadex to T, it blocks the receptor even though it doesn't activate it. This means if your test is very high, and E is "normal" you will need way more E to feel normal.

I feel like this point goes back and forth every which way.
Are you saying it's not only ok, but perhaps beneficial to also have estradiol high when test is high? I used to go this route, especially as I get few to no estrogenic sides, but talk in recent years of the other not so apparent negative effects of high estrogen kind of walked me back the other way.

 

[Kaladryn]

I would say I have that right now, but seems more closely correlated to my salsa habit. What causes it? Digestion is important too.

I don't know the cause but it's a common side effect of adex, switching to aromasin resolved my issues.

 

[Kaladryn]

It seems to me that over the last few years, an E2 of 50-60 on trt or a cycle is much more widely accepted than it was prior. I'm not telling you anything you don't know but estrogen will boost HDL and is cardioprotective. Some people like Rand McClain have said in the past that 15-21 is a normal e2 range and you should try to keep within it - but I think an appropriate escalation in relation to test is probably good for you.

We don't really know estrogen is cardioprotective, we know it increases HDL but the effects of LDL/HDL in people is definitely in question, as I'm sure you know. We know estrogen is a major factor in many cancers and promotes prostate cancer, perhaps even more so than DHT. 15-21 e2 range would probably be appropriate for someone with lower T levels but seems too low for someone with "young" T levels. 50-60 seems extremely high for TRT but probably about right for someone on 500mg or so of test.

I feel like this point goes back and forth every which way.
Are you saying it's not only ok, but perhaps beneficial to also have estradiol high when test is high? I used to go this route, especially as I get few to no estrogenic sides, but talk in recent years of the other not so apparent negative effects of high estrogen kind of walked me back the other way.

As you can see from my response above, it's all relative, it does go "every which way" so to speak. E2 and T need to be balanced in relation to one another. E2 blocking T at the androgen receptor probably doesn't matter much for men (it definitely matters for women, example: postmenopausal women start to get androgenic side effects from natty T production, even though their T levels don't increase, just their E goes down) BUT T blocking E2 at the ER does matter, if you are on supraphysiological doses of test and your E2 is low relative to this, even though it may be in the "normal range," you can experience the effects of low E.

 

[warlock]

We don't really know estrogen is cardioprotective, we know it increases HDL but the effects of LDL/HDL in people is definitely in question, as I'm sure you know. We know estrogen is a major factor in many cancers and promotes prostate cancer, perhaps even more so than DHT. 15-21 e2 range would probably be appropriate for someone with lower T levels but seems too low for someone with "young" T levels. 50-60 seems extremely high for TRT but probably about right for someone on 500mg or so of test.


As you can see from my response above, it's all relative, it does go "every which way" so to speak. E2 and T need to be balanced in relation to one another. E2 blocking T at the androgen receptor probably doesn't matter much for men (it definitely matters for women, example: postmenopausal women start to get androgenic side effects from natty T production, even though their T levels don't increase, just their E goes down) BUT T blocking E2 at the ER does matter, if you are on supraphysiological doses of test and your E2 is low relative to this, even though it may be in the "normal range," you can experience the effects of low E.

High estrogen promotes prostate cancer? Is this common?

 

[OuchThatHurts]

High estrogen promotes prostate cancer? Is this common?

I don't think it's fully understood. But I do believe that AI's can be used as a preventive measure in high risk guys. Seems that with age and declining male hormone levels (possibly less estrogen as well) or maybe the T:E ratio is the problem where estrogen is still low but not low in comparison to testosterone. I never minded my levels of estrogen to creep up with higher doses of testosterone. But estrogen never really messed me up too bad except when it was too low. Not too high. Low is rough. But I always tolerated Arimidex and Aromasin well also so there's that. Nothing crashed my sex life harder than nandrolones and low E2 from letrozole. Forget it. Not even trenbolone wrecked me that bad (I like the acetate version). Nothing changed my body better or faster than tren. Also should mention, the more testosterone I take the better I feel. Test never hung me over.

Additional reading from NIH:

Abstract​

Estrogens as hormonal therapy, particularly diethylstilbestrol, are effective against androgen-dependent prostate cancer, but paradoxically estrogens might also be involved in the causation of this malignancy. Therefore, antiestrogens have been suggested as both a chemopreventive and chemotherapeutic treatment, thereby inhibiting the development and progression of prostate cancer. This review addresses the role of estrogens in prostate carcinogenesis and prostate cancer progression and examines the rationale for using antiestrogenic agents in chemoprevention of prostate cancer.

 

[specter]

High estrogen promotes prostate cancer? Is this common?

Estrogen promotes igf release from the liver, igf fuels cancer.

 

[Elvia1023]

All AAS work and someone could get big with lower test and high deca and dbol/adrol for example. That should be common sense. Although most of the big guys I have come across use high doses of test. Now the main reason for that is it's simply what many big guys do/done and when coming up you copy the approach others have been successful with. People experiment with drugs (compounds, ratios etc) but simple fact higher drugs work and test is no different. I personally don't like high test and do much better using a low-moderate dose with higher deca but for most people the more test the better (within reason). Obviously laws of diminishing returns will always come into play and for many if they go above a certain amount side effects start outweighing results. Over the years I have come across many freaks and most of them took between 2-5 grams of test. Although many of them simply abused all bodybuilding drugs so it doesn't make high test essential but it's definitely only going to assist you if your sole purpose is to grow as big and freaky as possible.

 

[luki7788]

The test has the fewest side effects when it comes to overall health and blood results, you can have virtually perfect blood results at 2-2.5g of the test per week. Other drugs are more confusing in health parameters. For me, the only side effect after the high test that limits me not to use the 3g test and more is the aromatization that is simply hard to deal with at such doses

 

[silverback1984]

All AAS work and someone could get big with lower test and high deca and dbol/adrol for example. That should be common sense. Although most of the big guys I have come across use high doses of test. Now the main reason for that is it's simply what many big guys do/done and when coming up you copy the approach others have been successful with. People experiment with drugs (compounds, ratios etc) but simple fact higher drugs work and test is no different. I personally don't like high test and do much better using a low-moderate dose with higher deca but for most people the more test the better (within reason). Obviously laws of diminishing returns will always come into play and for many if they go above a certain amount side effects start outweighing results. Over the years I have come across many freaks and most of them took between 2-5 grams of test. Although many of them simply abused all bodybuilding drugs so it doesn't make high test essential but it's definitely only going to assist you if your sole purpose is to grow as big and freaky as possible.

500 test with very High deca is what I'm gonna do next and see how it goes I really like deca

 

[LATS]

I dont think people are scared of the ai itself but clearly it has different effects on different people. I want to run an ai with my test but everytime I touch even one tablet my joints get sore and after a few tablets I can barely lift the bar itself even with 1/4 tablet eod. Dr.thomas o conor has stated hes had patients who after taking an ai , have all the symptoms of low estrogen especially sore joints but yet there estrogen is still in range after checking bloods. So it is a side effect for some people. I've also personally asked former bodybuilder vic Richard's and hes told me at the time he was bodybuilding he needed an ai to use testosterone but there was none available that suited his body at the time so he didnt use test.

Yes.. the joint issues with adex or aromasin is not always related to low estro.. numerous studies have found joint damage and pain from anti e when patients were well within the normal estro ranges.. the issues can stem from mineral drop to the unknown.. also very adverse effect on lipids.. that is why many go with nolvadex .. lipid friendly .. but not " technically " a anti e..
And yes victor Richard's has said he didn't use test.. and there very few people in this world who were bigger than victor.. now I always recommend a test base .. even if it's only 200mgs.. but there are plenty of other anabolics that can do the job of adding mass

 

[LATS]

I don't think it's fully understood. But I do believe that AI's can be used as a preventive measure in high risk guys. Seems that with age and declining male hormone levels (possibly less estrogen as well) or maybe the T:E ratio is the problem where estrogen is still low but not low in comparison to testosterone. I never minded my levels of estrogen to creep up with higher doses of testosterone. But estrogen never really messed me up too bad except when it was too low. Not too high. Low is rough. But I always tolerated Arimidex and Aromasin well also so there's that. Nothing crashed my sex life harder than nandrolones and low E2 from letrozole. Forget it. Not even trenbolone wrecked me that bad (I like the acetate version). Nothing changed my body better or faster than tren. Also should mention, the more testosterone I take the better I feel. Test never hung me over.

Additional reading from NIH:

Abstract​

Estrogens as hormonal therapy, particularly diethylstilbestrol, are effective against androgen-dependent prostate cancer, but paradoxically estrogens might also be involved in the causation of this malignancy. Therefore, antiestrogens have been suggested as both a chemopreventive and chemotherapeutic treatment, thereby inhibiting the development and progression of prostate cancer. This review addresses the role of estrogens in prostate carcinogenesis and prostate cancer progression and examines the rationale for using antiestrogenic agents in chemoprevention of prostate cancer.

The issue isn't estro in regards to prostate cancer but the estro / test ratio many are finding.. I had a Dr tell me at Barnes Hospital that the ratio is more important than the estro levels.. if test is in the higher range then we would expect estro to be higher and even desire it. To have supra levels of test and normal levels of estro is not desired.. now in older men who test levels have dropped and estro has elevated the use of anti e could be a very desirable treatment..

 

[Kaladryn]

Estrogen promotes igf release from the liver, igf fuels cancer.

It's not that simple, lots of tumors are 'ER positive' and grow from E2 directly. Estradiol is famous for causing cancer, they stopped giving women E2 (alone) because of its long history of promoting cancer.

 

[Kaladryn]

The test has the fewest side effects when it comes to overall health and blood results, you can have virtually perfect blood results at 2-2.5g of the test per week. Other drugs are more confusing in health parameters.

This answer is perfect IMO

 

[Kaladryn]

The issue isn't estro in regards to prostate cancer but the estro / test ratio many are finding.. I had a Dr tell me at Barnes Hospital that the ratio is more important than the estro levels.. if test is in the higher range then we would expect estro to be higher and even desire it. To have supra levels of test and normal levels of estro is not desired.. now in older men who test levels have dropped and estro has elevated the use of anti e could be a very desirable treatment..

Very accurate, but the problem is DHT can still be high. E2 is really protecting the prostate from DHT. Test protects the body from DHT as well (both compete for AR). Old men with low T get prostate issues from E2 and DHT.

Now it makes sense to think, just take a 5ARI and AI together, solved! But unfortunately, studies have shown that blocking both of those results in significant BPH.

 

[Golden]

The test has the fewest side effects when it comes to overall health and blood results, you can have virtually perfect blood results at 2-2.5g of the test per week. Other drugs are more confusing in health parameters.

This directly opposes what several of these more recent PED advisers (or whatever they call themselves) say. Iirc the likes of victor black who markets himself as an advocate for safer use, recommend low test and higher anabolics.

 

[b-boy]

This directly opposes what several of these more recent PED advisers (or whatever they call themselves) say. Iirc the likes of victor black who markets himself as an advocate for safer use, recommend low test and higher anabolics.

That is not what Victor advocates.

"As much test as you can safely get away with".

 

[totalrecomp]

Yes.. the joint issues with adex or aromasin is not always related to low estro.. numerous studies have found joint damage and pain from anti e when patients were well within the normal estro ranges.. the issues can stem from mineral drop to the unknown.. also very adverse effect on lipids.. that is why many go with nolvadex .. lipid friendly .. but not " technically " a anti e..
And yes victor Richard's has said he didn't use test.. and there very few people in this world who were bigger than victor.. now I always recommend a test base .. even if it's only 200mgs.. but there are plenty of other anabolics that can do the job of adding mass

The link between estrogen and blood clots is well documented and still not 100% understood.

Estrogen and Thrombosis: a Bench to Bedside Review

Estrogen, in the clinical setting is used primarily for contraception and hormone replacement therapy. It has been well established that estrogen increases the risk of both arterial and venous thrombosis. While estrogen is known to induce a prothrombotic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Now are the levels that become risky the same with men and women? Who knows. Is it the actual levels that matter or cumalitive exposure? Are the risks even higher for BBers with elevated H/H? These are all important questions to ponder and then ask are the known/unknown risks of AI use better/worse? Are the risks of AI's cumalitive or only while taking???

I met a drug sales rep who spent his whole career selling Tamoxifen and then Ralista/Raloxifen. I asked what his thoughts were on the side effects of tamoxifen and without me even finishing my question he stated with authority: "Blood clots, blood clots, blood clots." When I asked if raloxifene was any better he said no. Take that for what it's worth.

I think we have take an appoarch catered to the individual. Familial history of bloot clots and cancer? Probably better off managing estrogen a little more aggresively than someone who does not have such.

 

[specter]

It's not that simple, lots of tumors are 'ER positive' and grow from E2 directly. Estradiol is famous for causing cancer, they stopped giving women E2 (alone) because of its long history of promoting cancer.

i know but its 1 pathway of cancer growth

 

[specter]

The link between estrogen and blood clots is well documented and still not 100% understood.

Estrogen and Thrombosis: a Bench to Bedside Review

Estrogen, in the clinical setting is used primarily for contraception and hormone replacement therapy. It has been well established that estrogen increases the risk of both arterial and venous thrombosis. While estrogen is known to induce a prothrombotic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Now are the levels that become risky the same with men and women? Who knows. Is it the actual levels that matter or cumalitive exposure? Are the risks even higher for BBers with elevated H/H? These are all important questions to ponder and then ask are the known/unknown risks of AI use better/worse? Are the risks of AI's cumalitive or only while taking???

I met a drug sales rep who spent his whole career selling Tamoxifen and then Ralista/Raloxifen. I asked what his thoughts were on the side effects of tamoxifen and without me even finishing my question he stated with authority: "Blood clots, blood clots, blood clots." When I asked if raloxifene was any better he said no. Take that for what it's worth.

I think we have take an appoarch catered to the individual. Familial history of bloot clots and cancer? Probably better off managing estrogen a little more aggresively than someone who does not have such.

i believe Dante told Meadows to lower or come off nolva altogether after his heart issues, i remember John saying he was using something like 40mg a day.