Turn me off to tren

[Flex500]

The dose (for most drugs) determines if it's good for you, neutral, or detrimental. I've gone as low as 5-10mgs a day of tren and seen results. With that being said, at almost 39 years old I think it's best (for me) to avoid hard hitting androgens...which tren certainly is. Forget sleep issues, tren cough, etc. For most people you have a larger increase in BP, havoc on lipid profile, and being such a hard androgen I have concerns over the impact on the kidneys. Most people also notice an increased heart rate and adrenalin while on tren as well...that is not good. I'd consider drugs like propranolol for that issue as well as many others if I were going to use tren.

It's hard to match the look of tren but it's also hard to justify using it. I'd also say the wild card here is your current health and age. Most people can get away with a whole lot in their 20's and early 30's so if you keep an eye on your health markers maybe that is the time to "yolo".

 

[jay_dub]

Tren used to make me feel like shit mentally but I still kept taking it. I was like, what the fuck am I doing, mind was really dark, a kind of "let the world burn" type of vibe lol. And still I would take it at too high a dosage. Some logic. I took a good while off and started just 75mg of Hex a week and can really feel the good effects without too many sides.

I think it's unbeatable in increasing sex drive, which can be either positive or negative depending on where you are in life.

I have a very similar observation, especially in regards to the dark mindset I have noticed in myself, when running dosages of 300mg+ per week

But it was never like that when I was in my 20s running higher dosages. I felt God like, my confidence was sky high, my sex drive was out of this world, and I felt great, extremely motivated and positive about life.

Now days, it's the opposite. If I go over 150 per week I begin to feel somewhat insane. And that's not an exaggeration. I feel depressed, erratic, irrational, and aggressive, and not a positive type of aggression like I used to experience. My sleep also takes a hit in crazy ways. Ever since investing in my whoop device and seeing first hand, the effects on my sleep and overall health after just one injection, I've taken on a whole different approach to tren. Tren seriously fucks me up. And seeing first hand just how badly it affects my sleep and my recovery, and noticing how dark my mind gets, it really made my consider how bad the neurological effects are and how much more research needs to go into that aspect of it. That's why I am only willing to run 100-150 a week max, it is absolutely not worth it for me.

The future of biometrics is going to change the game of bodybuilding. Atleast in regards to the people who care about their mental and physical health.

 

[KillerStack]

With that being said, at almost 39 years old I think it's best (for me) to avoid hard hitting androgens...which tren certainly is.

So I once asked about the abdrogenucity of tren here but didn't get any responses. There is the idea by Victor Black that tren is NOT a particularly strong androgen, much less androgenic than test. He said this idea of tren being several times as anabolic and androgenic is a bunch of bullshit started by William Llewellyn. I think the idea was that it was based on some useless Hershberger assay or whatever it's called.

He also thinks tren has these mental effects on account of its anti-cortisol effects. I was kind of theorising ghe same here a while back before I ever heard of Victor Black lol.

Supposedly lots of female physique athletes use tren these days - do they think tren is a particularly strong androgen? Worse than say test?

Thoughts?

 

[MR. BMJ]

So I once asked about the abdrogenucity of tren here but didn't get any responses. There is the idea by Victor Black that tren is NOT a particularly strong androgen, much less androgenic than test. He said this idea of tren being several times as anabolic and androgenic is a bunch of bullshit started by William Llewellyn. I think the idea was that it was based on some useless Hershberger assay or whatever it's called.

He also thinks tren has these mental effects on account of its anti-cortisol effects. I was kind of theorising ghe same here a while back before I ever heard of Victor Black lol.

Supposedly lots of female physique athletes use tren these days - do they think tren is a particularly strong androgen? Worse than say test?

Thoughts?

I don't follow Victor, and i'm sure as hell am not going to pay for his services. Seems like a good guy with good intents, and he may be right on a lot of common sense things, but so are many others. At some point it becomes theoretical, unless put to use by subjects out in the real world, and I am not a big fan of extrapolating data from animals, or rat models. They have their place, but not always reliable.

My question is, assuming nobody is misunderstanding his context, if he feels Tren is not that androgenic due to the Hershberger Assay being useless, what other means did he use to come to his own conclusion of it....not being too androgenic? If the Hershberger assay is useless, and i'm not saying it isn't, then what method did he use to come to his own conclusion that tren is less androgenic? Is his own method useless too? Not downing him, i'm just wondering how he came to his own conclusion.

Well, as far as sides go from user to user, whether man or woman, that's going to mostly be dependent on dosages used. A lot of females can get by microdosing, but then again, it's different user to user for them, just like us men. Some can't tolerate even microdosing. Most women I know who have used tren have to be ultra careful using it, or virilization becomes an issue.

 

[Ruhlfreak55]

Ever since investing in my whoop device and seeing first hand, the effects on my sleep and overall health after just one injection, I've taken on a whole different approach to tren. Tren seriously fucks me up. And seeing first hand just how badly it affects my sleep and my recovery, and noticing how dark my mind gets, it really made my consider how bad the neurological effects are and how much more research needs to go into that aspect of it. That's why I am only willing to run 100-150 a week max, it is absolutely not worth it for me.

The future of biometrics is going to change the game of bodybuilding. Atleast in regards to the people who care about their mental and physical health.

I can definitely also attest to noticing IMMEDIATELY that it negatively effects my sleep score. Not just perceived, but in the data.

I honestly can't say though that I've ever noticed a digestive side from it that I could attribute to it. And I've run ~150 a day on rare occasion in the past.

 

[maldorf]

We used a lot of tren pellets back in the day and never really noticed good results, 3 of us used a lot with dmso and crushed up and mixed with other injectables, although we were always on other stuff also so I can really say for sure.

That's strange. I saw incredible results, although I was rather new to steroids. Maybe that was it.

 

[Kaladryn]

So I once asked about the abdrogenucity of tren here but didn't get any responses. There is the idea by Victor Black that tren is NOT a particularly strong androgen, much less androgenic than test. He said this idea of tren being several times as anabolic and androgenic is a bunch of bullshit started by William Llewellyn. I think the idea was that it was based on some useless Hershberger assay or whatever it's called.

He also thinks tren has these mental effects on account of its anti-cortisol effects. I was kind of theorising ghe same here a while back before I ever heard of Victor Black lol.

Supposedly lots of female physique athletes use tren these days - do they think tren is a particularly strong androgen? Worse than say test?

Thoughts?

All the androgenic/anabolic ratios are total broscience BS made up from petri dish tests. The only real factors are how strong its affinity for AR is and how readily it converts to DHT. Tren has 3x the affinity for the AR as testosterone (well established as true) but doesn't metabolize to DHT "therefore it is a strong androgen." The truth is the fact that it doesn't make DHT makes it a weaker androgen than test (assuming you take 1/3rd the dose). And while we are at it, the only thing that makes DHT a "strong androgen" is it has 2x the affinity for the AR as test.

The mental effects of tren probably aren't from its anti-cortisol effects, because all steroids have an affinity for the GR. It's most likely that the mental effects from tren come from its affinity for the ER, this makes since most of the mental effects from all AAS stem from ER effects.

 

[Kaladryn]

Interesting to note that I get almost no side effects from tren other than increased metabolism. I had night sweats but I still slept like a baby. I had tren cough only a couple of times, immediately after injection, almost for sure from the EO used to increase solubility. I've run many 6 month long cycles, ranging from 100 to 400mg/week. I never went above 400 because I never had any reason to need more than that. I noticed pigmentation in my urine on only a couple of occasions and it was due to very mild rhabdo I believe (all bodybuilders are excreting some myoglobin now and then) from heavy training.

I used tren for a contest diet 4 years ago at 200mg for the last 8 weeks and it did increase my metablism, I skipped running tren the next year for the same show and didn't miss it all, it's totally unnecessary, I actually looked better without it.

I know people at my gym that say they are on 1g of tren and they look like they are only on 200mg of test to me.

I think most people aren't really bodybuilders, they just want to look better and they are fat, so tren helps them recomp well because their metabolism gets so high, but if you are a real bodybuilder, you actually want to either a) eat more than you burn and maximize growth, or b) diet precisely and drop fat slowly over time. Tren is a hindrance to the former and unnecessary for the latter if you know what you are doing.

The benefit of tren is it doesn't convert to E2 or DHT and if you don't know what you are doing with AAS and ancillary usage, then this is an advantage.

Tren seems to cause BPH rather readily, which follows studies that have shown that blocking both E2 and DHT cause BPH. Using tren with higher doses of test seems to have a protective effect against this.

 

[Matsuo Munefusa]

I don't follow Victor, and i'm sure as hell am not going to pay for his services. Seems like a good guy with good intents, and he may be right on a lot of common sense things, but so are many others. At some point it becomes theoretical, unless put to use by subjects out in the real world, and I am not a big fan of extrapolating data from animals, or rat models. They have their place, but not always reliable.

My question is, assuming nobody is misunderstanding his context, if he feels Tren is not that androgenic due to the Hershberger Assay being useless, what other means did he use to come to his own conclusion of it....not being too androgenic? If the Hershberger assay is useless, and i'm not saying it isn't, then what method did he use to come to his own conclusion that tren is less androgenic? Is his own method useless too? Not downing him, i'm just wondering how he came to his own conclusion.

Well, as far as sides go from user to user, whether man or woman, that's going to mostly be dependent on dosages used. A lot of females can get by microdosing, but then again, it's different user to user for them, just like us men. Some can't tolerate even microdosing. Most women I know who have used tren have to be ultra careful using it, or virilization becomes an issue.

It’s total bullshit saying tren isn’t androgenic. Just pure clickbait bullshit designed to drum him up some $$$

 

[Kaladryn]

All the androgenic/anabolic ratios are total broscience BS made up from petri dish tests. The only real factors are how strong its affinity for AR is and how readily it converts to DHT. Tren has 3x the affinity for the AR as testosterone (well established as true) but doesn't metabolize to DHT "therefore it is a strong androgen." The truth is the fact that it doesn't make DHT makes it a weaker androgen than test (assuming you take 1/3rd the dose). And while we are at it, the only thing that makes DHT a "strong androgen" is it has 2x the affinity for the AR as test.

The mental effects of tren probably aren't from its anti-cortisol effects, because all steroids have an affinity for the GR. It's most likely that the mental effects from tren come from its affinity for the ER, this makes since most of the mental effects from all AAS stem from ER effects.

So what I said here is somewhat misleading, as it doesn't account for coregulators of transcription. While I believe that most of the published androgenic/anabolic rations may be bs, that doesn't mean some steroids aren't more anabolic vs androgenic. Here is a good read:

The transcriptional activity of the androgen-bound AR is modulated by specific proteins known as coregulators. Coregulators bind to the activated AR in a ligand-dependent manner to either enhance (co-activator) or repress (corepressor) its ability to transactivate the target gene through chromatin remodelling and histone modifications, as well as being involved in the recruitment of the basal transcriptional machinery.

Androgen Receptor Structure, Function and Biology: From Bench to Bedside

The actions of androgens such as testosterone and dihydrotestosterone are mediated via the androgen receptor (AR), a ligand-dependent nuclear transcription factor and member of the steroid hormone nuclear receptor family. Given its widespread expression ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This is pretty interesting stuff. Check out the section on "Ligand-Independent Actions of the AR" I was unaware of this, very interesting.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

In my experience tren caused hair miniaturization

As far as it being androgenic if you want to call a deeper voice more prostate issues and hair miniaturization androgenic which most people do unless there's a different term I'm not talking about or someone else is talking about but I guess you can say In crude terms it is extremely androgenic

 

[maldorf]

In my experience tren caused hair miniaturization

As far as it being androgenic if you want to call a deeper voice more prostate issues and hair miniaturization androgenic which most people do unless there's a different term I'm not talking about or someone else is talking about but I guess you can say In crude terms it is extremely androgenic

I never had any hair issues with it, but I dont think my prostate really started to grow until I started in with tren. Now mine is enlarged and I have to take medicine for it. Ill probably need surgery in the near future.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

I never had any hair issues with it, but I dont think my prostate really started to grow until I started in with tren. Now mine is enlarged and I have to take medicine for it. Ill probably need surgery in the near future.

I haven't had a PSA test as they start doing them test around 40 years old and up although I'm not surprised if mine has grew and shrunk back down with the anabolics and androgens of use I've haven't used much androgens I've used trest alone and tren , ime they seem the most androgenic and I didn't really use much of them for long periods of time or go high and dosing

Also from experience trest alone seem almost or as potent androgen as tren

I take finasteride which I've heard it's supposed to shrink it as a many guys do take finasteride for prostate although I've also heard that finasteride gives a false positive on it so I got to do more research on that but when I get my test I guess I'll see

My grandfather and Dad have had prostate issues so that's why I'm concerned about prostate it seems to run on his side my dad's side it seems

 

[maldorf]

I haven't had a PSA test as they start doing them test around 40 years old and up although I'm not surprised if mine has grew and shrunk back down with the anabolics and androgens of use I've haven't used much androgens I've used trest alone and tren , ime they seem the most androgenic and I didn't really use much of them for long periods of time or go high and dosing

Also from experience trest alone seem almost or as potent androgen as tren

I take finasteride which I've heard it's supposed to shrink it as a many guys do take finasteride for prostate although I've also heard that finasteride gives a false positive on it so I got to do more research on that but when I get my test I guess I'll see

My grandfather and Dad have had prostate issues so that's why I'm concerned about prostate it seems to run on his side my dad's side it seems

Mine is definitely enlarged and I dont think it shrinks back down much when you get off the juice. Mine just seems to grow more and more each year. Im taking flomax, an alpha blocker, and its helping a lot. My doctor didnt want to give me the DHT blocker unless the flomax doesnt work. I think I may ask him about starting up Finasteride though because I think mine is still growing. I do think finasteride can shrink it down some. Maybe someone with experience taking it can help us on that question.

I know someone that had to have his prostate removed completely, might have been cancer I dont know. When they remove it, that part of the urethra that goes through it is lost. So they have to take your penis and pull it back inside and reconnect it to the urethra. When they do that , you penis gets quite a bit shorter! Read some guys lose over 3 inches in erect length. The guy I know says his is so short that when he urinates the urine just trickles out over his scrotrum, its too small now. He has to pee sitting down, like a girl. Wow. I hope I never have to do that.

 

[FrancisK]

It’s total bullshit saying tren isn’t androgenic. Just pure clickbait bullshit designed to drum him up some $$$

Definitely someone saying shit just for the reaction and attention of it

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Mine is definitely enlarged and I dont think it shrinks back down much when you get off the juice. Mine just seems to grow more and more each year. Im taking flomax, an alpha blocker, and its helping a lot. My doctor didnt want to give me the DHT blocker unless the flomax doesnt work. I think I may ask him about starting up Finasteride though because I think mine is still growing. I do think finasteride can shrink it down some. Maybe someone with experience taking it can help us on that question.

I know someone that had to have his prostate removed completely, might have been cancer I dont know. When they remove it, that part of the urethra that goes through it is lost. So they have to take your penis and pull it back inside and reconnect it to the urethra. When they do that , you penis gets quite a bit shorter! Read some guys lose over 3 inches in erect length. The guy I know says his is so short that when he urinates the urine just trickles out over his scrotrum, its too small now. He has to pee sitting down, like a girl. Wow. I hope I never have to do that.

Your prostate can shrink after enlarged, the body has an amazing ability to heal itself. Do let them doctors convince you otherwise they're doing so bc they don't believe and or brainwashed by their profession. Some of them, not all, make their my money convincing people they need surgery when they don't.many times surgery makes things worst , so ve seen major surgeries over and over again and ten years later people regret having them. Now I'm not saying all surgeries, minor stuff sometimes can work

Fuck having my penis smaller I think I'd rather be dead seriously maybe I'd come back reincarnated with a bigger penis but eff that

 

[maldorf]

Your prostate can shrink after enlarged, the body has an amazing ability to heal itself. Do let them doctors convince you otherwise they're doing so bc they don't believe and or brainwashed by their profession. Some of them, not all, make their my money convincing people they need surgery when they don't.many times surgery makes things worst , so ve seen major surgeries over and over again and ten years later people regret having them. Now I'm not saying all surgeries, minor stuff sometimes can work

Fuck having my penis smaller I think I'd rather be dead seriously maybe I'd come back reincarnated with a bigger penis but eff that

Anyone here taking finasteride? Are the sides bad? My urologist didn't want me on it if I can avoid it. He's pretty non-interventionist. I can feel my stream getting weaker every year as my prostate seems to be growing. Certainly didn't shrink down after my heart attack when I got off steroids. Mine seems permanent, but maybe finasteride will shrink it. Just have to deal with the sides of blocking dht.

If an enlarged prostate and cardiac problems doesn't make you chose not to use tren, nothing will.

In the case of the guy I know that pretty much lost his penis, I think he had cancer and there was no other choice other than risk death from cancer. He's a smart guy, retired county coroner.

 

[FrancisK]

Anyone here taking finasteride? Are the sides bad? My urologist didn't want me on it if I can avoid it. He's pretty non-interventionist. I can feel my stream getting weaker every year as my prostate seems to be growing. Certainly didn't shrink down after my heart attack when I got off steroids. Mine seems permanent, but maybe finasteride will shrink it. Just have to deal with the sides of blocking dht.

If an enlarged prostate and cardiac problems doesn't make you chose not to use tren, nothing will.

In the case of the guy I know that pretty much lost his penis, I think he had cancer and there was no other choice other than risk death from cancer. He's a smart guy, retired county coroner.

Dutasteride but it has 100% fixed whatever prostate issues I had, nice to not have to get up to pee 4 times a night. I actually started taking it for hair but it’s been a nice side effect, luckily knock on wood I haven’t had any other side effects from it…

 

[MasteroniPepperoni]

Anyone here taking finasteride? Are the sides bad? My urologist didn't want me on it if I can avoid it. He's pretty non-interventionist. I can feel my stream getting weaker every year as my prostate seems to be growing. Certainly didn't shrink down after my heart attack when I got off steroids. Mine seems permanent, but maybe finasteride will shrink it. Just have to deal with the sides of blocking dht.

If an enlarged prostate and cardiac problems doesn't make you chose not to use tren, nothing will.

In the case of the guy I know that pretty much lost his penis, I think he had cancer and there was no other choice other than risk death from cancer. He's a smart guy, retired county coroner.

I’d avoid finasteride with previous cardiac conditions. As much as you can at least. Finasteride and other anti androgens can cause heart problems as the heart needs some level of androgens for healthy function. Not as strong, but I’d opt for saw palmetto/stinging nettle

there’s actually a lot of reports online of people having cardiac sides with finasteride, ru 58841, etc

 

[maldorf]

Dutasteride but it has 100% fixed whatever prostate issues I had, nice to not have to get up to pee 4 times a night. I actually started taking it for hair but it’s been a nice side effect, luckily knock on wood I haven’t had any other side effects from it…

Great. I think I'll see my urologist and see about that med. I'm not sure why he was so against me trying it. I guess Flomax is just less harsh on the body.

I'm on a lot of meds too, and maybe there will be interactions .I doubt it though. Thanks for your feedback. Didn't mean to hijack this thread!