Full cycle injected Sub-Q vs IM … My results and what I noticed (shocking)

[heavyhitter]

1,500 - 2g of masterone

The S23 I ran at 50mgs a day split into 2 injections. Very surprised how fast you feel this stuff.

Man I’d be bald as a cue ball on 2 g’s of mast

 

[Muay Thai]

Man I’d be bald as a cue ball on 2 g’s of mast

I am about to incorporate some into my cycle. from my 20s to my 30s my full head of hair went directly to my chest and back lmfao. dht... Id wear a hat less if I didn't look like mars attacks jk lol

 

[JoeyDHB]

Yeah that was kind of a one and done cycle with super high mast - just had to try it and it felt good but expensive. Not enough bang for the buck.

 

[Zarati]

Subq will change the pharmacokinetics of depot release.


View attachment 154054

What does this mean bro?
It look as it subQ absorption is shit.

IM 6x better absorption??

 

[pickapeck]

What does this mean bro?
It look as it subQ absorption is shit.

IM 6x better absorption??

You have to intrgrate ALL OF THE AREA under the curse. sub Q absorption is slower but overall is about the same amount in the case shown.

 

[Zarati]

You have to intrgrate ALL OF THE AREA under the curse. sub Q absorption is slower but overall is about the same amount in the case shown.

I wish there was a chart for testosterone levels because some people aromatize more with subQ. You agree? Based on what I've read

 

[micro2000]

What does this mean bro?
It look as it subQ absorption is shit.

IM 6x better absorption??

The absorption is delayed because the oil depot is in lower vascular/aqueous tissue. Subq can act like a slow release depending on the ester (longer esters prefer to remain in the oil phase over the aqueous phase).

Subq is great for TRT cause it can reduce the peaks and valleys but for maximum cycles its less effective because it can reduce the higher blood concentrations of the drug needed for full pharmacological efficacy.

 

[Zarati]

The absorption is delayed because the oil depot is in lower vascular/aqueous tissue. Subq can act like a slow release depending on the ester (longer esters prefer to remain in the oil phase over the aqueous phase).

Subq is great for TRT cause it can reduce the peaks and valleys but for maximum cycles its less effective because it can reduce the higher blood concentrations of the drug needed for full pharmacological efficacy.

What's good if it aromatizes more than IM though

 

[micro2000]

What's good if it aromatizes more than IM though

I can't say if it aromatizes more subq than IM. Its possible. I would think for the average gym going TRT user, low estrogen levels aren't necessary and may be deleterious for sexual and cardiovascular health. For a professional bodybuilder/fitness person this is obviously a different calculation.

 

[fisther69]

I can't say if it aromatizes more subq than IM. Its possible. I would think for the average gym going TRT user, low estrogen levels aren't necessary and may be deleterious for sexual and cardiovascular health. For a professional bodybuilder/fitness person this is obviously a different calculation.

I believe it may reach aromatization faster to saturation, but I believe total aromatization overall would be similar from then on

 

[mslmn]

Yeah that was kind of a one and done cycle with super high mast - just had to try it and it felt good but expensive. Not enough bang for the buck.

Did you get bloodwork done after, I wonder what your HDL looked like after that.

 

[Type-IIx]

You have to intrgrate ALL OF THE AREA under the curse. sub Q absorption is slower but overall is about the same amount in the case shown.

So to me it was fairly clear just from looking at it that the AUC for subq was quite low (and this makes sense physiologically as one can expect a preparation intended for intramuscular use to have reduced absorption/distribution/bioavailability when injected in the subcutaneous fat). I went ahead and actually calculated the AUC from this graph for subq vs. gluteal IM and the results were 262 vs. 353 (34.73% greater AUC for gluteal IM vs. subq).

 

[Cito33189]

Well I can't say this surprises me. The "For intramuscular injections" message on vials and amps is probably there for a reason

Hahahahha I thought the same exact thing.
People trying to reinvent the wheel by using triangles

 

[Zarati]

Try subQ thighs without pinching fat, numbers are the same with IM

 

[OuchThatHurts]

A lot has been thrown around here but let's just sum up and put all this to rest. Everything you need to know for TRT is below. The rest is just talk, feels, and broscience. Obviously, you're free to do whatever you like. And if you feel it works for you, by all means. Everyone's body chemistry is different but we can still abstract the necessary information for a reference point from available science and in practice, both clinical and anecdotal.

If you pin oils daily in doses of 10mg-15mg, at least do it IM. You can reach muscle easily even with a small 8mm slin pin (forearm, delt, etc) and any other muscle with a longer pin. But choose the length and gauge that you feel most comfortable with.

I'm going to assume if you're reading this, you likely want the high peak daily levels and dropoff so you're ready to pulse your T the following day and going forward and keep a high steady-state TT at a high 800-1000 ng/dL, high free T, with normal E2 concentrations. By normal E2 concentrations, I mean the estrogen levels you (you specifically) would have had if you were producing the upper range of normal testosterone for a healthy 18-65yo male. It is very basic.

This is not a wheel that can be reinvented. Anything other than a daily or weekly IM injection is not optimal. But there is enough science to show that daily IM injection pulses of 10-15mg of a short-estered T prep like propionate or cypionate will be very effective in treating low T levels if you are experiencing the effects of hypogonadism.

There is some circulating information and anecdotal regarding the effectiveness of a subq inj but far more pharmacokinetic data to contrary. For our purposes, we'll just look at the science and you can take it from there in any way you like.

There is really not much else to say regarding pinning and dosing but we can can look at the basics of TRT and exactly what is scientifically optimal and just adjust as necessary. Probably a good time to stress the importance of getting baseline bloodwork and periodically thereafter. It's good to see that more of you are doing that.

First it's important that you know that anything > 15mg per day is a supra-physiological dose of T (or more simply: anything over 15mg per day is not TRT). How can we know this for sure? We can know this because the highest natural T produced by the testes in healthy non-hypergonadic men is approx 10mg per day(1). This has been shown in clinical settings again and again. Some men have certain conditions that cause over-production of T but these hypergonadic males are not the norm. With replacement therapy for all of you 18-65yo men, you also have to factor in the ester weight (propionate, cypionate, et all) and the age-related increase in SHBG as well (2).

Please take the time to read the pages in the NIH published articles referenced below.

(1) page 9-10, "Circulating Testosterone as the Hormonal Basis of Sex Differences in Athletic Performance" ref Endocr Rev. 2018 Oct; 39(5): 803–829
(2) page 3, "Testosterone replacement therapy for older men", ref Clin Interv Aging. 2007 Dec; 2(4): 561–566.

Voluntary Disclosure: I personally take 150mg TC (testosterone cypionate) Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. I am not practicing TRT. Not even close. I'm taking approx 10x what a healthy male would produce.

 

[pickapeck]

I wish there was a chart for testosterone levels because some people aromatize more with subQ. You agree? Based on what I've read

Faster or slower per individual or per ester, given the same amount of base hormone (minus ester mass), the area under the curve will be approximately the same just shifted to a diferent region of the curve. Not trying to be a know it all. This is really basic pharmacokinetics.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Faster or slower per individual or per ester, given the same amount of base hormone (minus ester mass), the area under the curve will be approximately the same just shifted to a diferent region of the curve. Not trying to be a know it all. This is really basic pharmacokinetics.

Yes. Subq appears to have a much lower initial peak with a prolonged duration of action. But the end absorption rate of the amount administered is only marginally less with subq. This could be due to enzymatic factors during the prolonged time in days where the oil is still in depot within the fat layer.

 

[Zarati]

Yes. Subq appears to have a much lower initial peak with a prolonged duration of action. But the end absorption rate of the amount administered is only marginally less with subq. This could be due to enzymatic factors during the prolonged time in days where the oil is still in depot within the fat layer.

So does subQ aromatize more then or it's the same as IM?

 

[OuchThatHurts]

So does subQ aromatize more then or it's the same as IM?

There is no data that I'm aware of that compares the two in a given study. However the slightly lower AUC for a given amount of testosterone suggests that some of the testosterone (I think it was 20 or 30%) is going somewhere. That could be a discrepancy in the measurement, enzymatic activity due to longer duration in vivo, or it could be being reduced to either estrogen or DHT. In other words, we don't know.

So where does that leave us? For myself, I would stick with that of which we are certain. Everything written in my above post is tried and true, clinically backed up, hard data. I can't think of a reason to go subq. Is there some convenience to it or less PIP or scar tissue? What is the benefit is what I'm asking. Now for water-based injectables, there is no problem whatsoever subq. But oils? I don't think that makes much sense.

All that aside, if your bloodwork and health is better with subq, than by all means go subq. I just don't see where or how that could be the case. Especially when IM administration of tiny amounts is not only relatively harmless, but is backed up by clinical evidence.

 

[Muay Thai]

I just switched from pure subq back to IM. lots of scar tissue to dig around which sucks, but honestly I feel harder and dryer within days (pinning tren)
my nightsweats have increased going IM. I feel meaner too. maybe placebo , sticking with IM for a while though, maybe TEST i will do subq here n there, every other compound no