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Mentzer - only trained 2h/wk?

People often regard Dorian Yates as the poster boy for low volume training. But like Lee Preist stated, if you actually compare how he trained to many other lifters, it's not that different. The main difference is that DY only really "counted" his top sets that went beyond failure and not all of his work sets. He never did ONE set though - he did one TOP set beyond muscle failure.


DY

Incline Press -

155x8

245x8

335x6

415x6


Hammer Strength Press-
1x6

1x8


Incline Flyes -

2 sets

Cable Crossovers -

1 set



RONNIE

Flat Bench -

135x10-12

225x10-12

315x10-12

405x8-10

500x5



Incline -

225x10-12

315x10-12

405x9



Decline -

225x10-12

315x10-12

405x10
He did some warmup sets for safety but if you think that 336 is doing anything to build muscle when your working weight is 415 then you don’t understand what mechanical tension is which objectively the driver of growth.

He had one set that had effective reps
He had one working set maybe 2 per exercise
 
A warm up set is not a working set.
A working set is a set with effective reps.
Simply accumulating fatigue does not build muscle
 
Did u know Mike personally?
Depends on how you define ‘know’. Does anybody really know somebody?

Now that I am finished being pissy 😉 I have watched him work out many times, have read everything that he has published, talked to him twice on the phone (boy can he talk, long conversations) when I was doing primary research for the author of a book. And have a bit more info on him from two reliable sources but I try not to include that in my comments as they are second hand info but one source quoted is in the public domain.

Hope that answers you question.
 
Did u know Mike personally?
Depends on how you define ‘know’. Does anybody really know somebody?

Now that I am finished being pissy 😉 I have watched him work out many times, have read everything that he has published, talked to him twice on the phone (boy can he talk, long conversations) when I was doing primary research for the author of a book. And have a bit more info on him from two reliable sources but I try not to include that in my comments as they are second hand info but one source quoted is in the public domain.

Hope that answers you question.
 
Depends on how you define ‘know’. Does anybody really know somebody?

Now that I am finished being pissy 😉 I have watched him work out many times, have read everything that he has published, talked to him twice on the phone (boy can he talk, long conversations) when I was doing primary research for the author of a book. And have a bit more info on him from two reliable sources but I try not to include that in my comments as they are second hand info but one source quoted is in the public domain.

Hope that answers you question.
I find really knowing someone. Ranks along the same level as knowing exactly how to grow muscle the optimal way. A few short years of productive training ,makes a person think they are an expert. My personal observation from myself and others! Then more decades of training, watching and reading to find the ocean of knowledge that i don't know is bigger then the pool i choose to draw from.
 
Depends on how you define ‘know’. Does anybody really know somebody?

Now that I am finished being pissy 😉 I have watched him work out many times, have read everything that he has published, talked to him twice on the phone (boy can he talk, long conversations) when I was doing primary research for the author of a book. And have a bit more info on him from two reliable sources but I try not to include that in my comments as they are second hand info but one source quoted is in the public domain.

Hope that answers you question.
Thought you might get a kick out of this. My gym just recently got it and posted it on their Instagram.
They’ve got a ton of nautilus and med x stuff amongst other things
 

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Depends on how you define ‘know’. Does anybody really know somebody?

Now that I am finished being pissy 😉 I have watched him work out many times, have read everything that he has published, talked to him twice on the phone (boy can he talk, long conversations) when I was doing primary research for the author of a book. And have a bit more info on him from two reliable sources but I try not to include that in my comments as they are second hand info but one source quoted is in the public domain.

Hope that answers you question.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. I was just curious if u actually knew him on a personal level. Some people make their opinion about someone by what they have heard or what someone else has said . I spoke to him at least a dozen times on the phone and followed a lot of his ideas and training principles but I didn't know him on a personal level. I knew he had some struggles just like we all do and by all means he wasn't perfect but I always respected Mike whether I agreed with everything he said or believed. I'm not a guy who likes to take shots and bash people that are no longer around to defend themselves either. I still think he is a legend and pioneer in our sport whether he was right or wrong. All these years have gone by and we are still talking about him.
 
People often regard Dorian Yates as the poster boy for low volume training. But like Lee Preist stated, if you actually compare how he trained to many other lifters, it's not that different. The main difference is that DY only really "counted" his top sets that went beyond failure and not all of his work sets. He never did ONE set though - he did one TOP set per exercise to beyond muscle failure.


DY

Incline Press -

155x8

245x8

335x6

415x6


Hammer Strength Press-
1x6

1x8


Incline Flyes -

2 sets

Cable Crossovers -

1 set



RONNIE

Flat Bench -

135x10-12

225x10-12

315x10-12

405x8-10

500x5



Incline -

225x10-12

315x10-12

405x9



Decline -

225x10-12

315x10-12

405x10
By your logic if I my chest workout is:
2x15x45
2x10x135
1x5x225
1x1x315
1x6-8x405 to failure
Flyes 1x10-12 to failure
Dips 1x10-12 to failure once a week I'm a high volume guy? By your logic someone who maxed a squat at a 1000 pounds but did warmup sets of 3 at 135, 225, 315, 405, etc is high volume. By your definition a guy who maxes at 225 is low volume, a guy who maxes at 1000 is high volume despite only doing one set at or close to failure. I strongly disagree.
 
I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. I was just curious if u actually knew him on a personal level. Some people make their opinion about someone by what they have heard or what someone else has said . I spoke to him at least a dozen times on the phone and followed a lot of his ideas and training principles but I didn't know him on a personal level. I knew he had some struggles just like we all do and by all means he wasn't perfect but I always respected Mike whether I agreed with everything he said or believed. I'm not a guy who likes to take shots and bash people that are no longer around to defend themselves either. I still think he is a legend and pioneer in our sport whether he was right or wrong. All these years have gone by and we are still talking about him.
I appreciate the detailed reply.

Well, you know him better than I did. That is great you got to talk with him so much. His physique was way ahead of its time.

I will say this though, he totally changed his views on training after he talked with Jones. Me thinks he was a Jones wannabe with the smoking and gravelly voice. He wanted to make his mark in exercise not so much with his physique after his historic loss to Arnold (he was robbed, purely political) but with his views on building muscle be he took it to extremes.

My opinion.
 
By your logic if I my chest workout is:
2x15x45
2x10x135
1x5x225
1x1x315
1x6-8x405 to failure
Flyes 1x10-12 to failure
Dips 1x10-12 to failure once a week I'm a high volume guy? By your logic someone who maxed a squat at a 1000 pounds but did warmup sets of 3 at 135, 225, 315, 405, etc is high volume. By your definition a guy who maxes at 225 is low volume, a guy who maxes at 1000 is high volume despite only doing one set at or close to failure. I strongly disagree.

Mechanical tention and metabolic stress are the 2 things that cause growth . If you do 5 warm ups, it is added volume (metabolic stress) and the set that goes to failure is the one that counts this method has more mechanical tention. If you do 10 sets of 10 and failure on the last set. The last set is still the one that counts. It has more metabolic stress and less Mechanical tention. Both methods have pros and cons. The system you use consistently is the one that works.
 
Mechanical tention and metabolic stress are the 2 things that cause growth . If you do 5 warm ups, it is added volume (metabolic stress) and the set that goes to failure is the one that counts this method has more mechanical tention. If you do 10 sets of 10 and failure on the last set. The last set is still the one that counts. It has more metabolic stress and less Mechanical tention. Both methods have pros and cons. The system you use consistently is the one that works.
I'm well aware of that, my point was someone doing warmups before using a heavy weight to failure does not necessarily make it a high volume routine.
 
Thought you might get a kick out of this. My gym just recently got it and posted it on their Instagram.
They’ve got a ton of nautilus and med x stuff amongst other things
Cool stuff. That is Mercury Morris on the pullover machine.

I would be interested in your opinion of the MedX equipment. I got tested by Arthur on the leg extension machine, plotting my strength curve. When I get mine I will post it if I remember.

Arthur had some MedX machines in his living room. I asked him to train me, I said this was his last opportunity 😉 he wisely said no.
 
And there’s a majority of high volume guys and girls in gyms across the world who look like they’ve never touched a weight and look the same year after year.

Is big As growth principles not a hit routine?
It works.
I’ve never gotten anything out of volume training besides spun wheels or regression.

Mike went off the rails at the end but his heavy duty 2 is pretty effective if someone is actually able to train hard.

Fortitude training tier 1 is an hit routine by definition.

Dc is too whether Dante admits it or not.
Phil Hernons 3 way is low volume.

There a ton of low volume stuff that works.
There’s also lot of low volume people who look like they’ve never touched a weight because they have poor genetics. The truth is this—any routine works for a beginner whether it’s low volume, moderate volume or high volume. Any stimulus works at first. But as you get stronger and more advanced, you need to add some additional volume to make further muscular gains given you’re training with enough intensity. How much volume each person needs is very individualistic. For example, I need around 16-20 intense work sets taken to or near failure on quads once a week to obtain maximum growth. Anything over 20 sets seems to be too much. Fewer than 12 sets isn’t enough for my quads. But my biceps and triceps will grow well doing only 9 sets per week. But they grow their best performing approximately 20 intense work sets per week. There’s no one size fits all when it comes to training, diet and steroids.
 
I have never gotten anything out of high volume.
Added volume? Well Dorian lowered his.
I have his training journal in fact he progressively got stronger and progressively lowered the volume.

You get stronger, increase food, and increase drugs.
When Jay needed to grow to beat Ronnie he didn’t increase volume he got stronger.
Look at Hunter Labradas actual routine.
Look at what JP did to grow to his size.
There’s a reason the strongest guys are the biggest and that’s not because of the added sets.
This is 100% facts. Well stated
 
I'm well aware of that, my point was someone doing warmups before using a heavy weight to failure does not necessarily make it a high volume routine.
Some people move through their feeder/warm up sets with less rest taken between sets. This makes the muscles think the weight is heavier and it increases the size of the muscles. Therefore, they could be considered work sets. Then they wait longer before they go all out using a heavier weight. I don’t train that way. I have found I get better results if I’m at my weakest on my last couple of work sets for an exercise. I like to go heavy immediately following my warm up/feeder sets. This means I actually get weaker as I progress. With each subsequent set I usually get fewer reps or have to use less weight. That’s where I make my best gains.
 
Some people move through their feeder/warm up sets with less rest taken between sets. This makes the muscles think the weight is heavier and it increases the size of the muscles. Therefore, they could be considered work sets. Then they wait longer before they go all out using a heavier weight. I don’t train that way. I have found I get better results if I’m at my weakest on my last couple of work sets for an exercise. I like to go heavy immediately following my warm up/feeder sets. This means I actually get weaker as I progress. With each subsequent set I usually get fewer reps or have to use less weight. That’s where I make my best gains.
No. The muscles don’t think they don’t have brains.
What you’re describing is simply wasted effort and accumulated fatigue.
 
There’s also lot of low volume people who look like they’ve never touched a weight because they have poor genetics. The truth is this—any routine works for a beginner whether it’s low volume, moderate volume or high volume. Any stimulus works at first. But as you get stronger and more advanced, you need to add some additional volume to make further muscular gains given you’re training with enough intensity. How much volume each person needs is very individualistic. For example, I need around 16-20 intense work sets taken to or near failure on quads once a week to obtain maximum growth. Anything over 20 sets seems to be too much. Fewer than 12 sets isn’t enough for my quads. But my biceps and triceps will grow well doing only 9 sets per week. But they grow their best performing approximately 20 intense work sets per week. There’s no one size fits all when it comes to training, diet and steroids.
There’s no one sized fits all but there are parameters that have to be met.
We’re not special snow flakes.
The truth is low volume is less effective for beginners and becomes more effective the more advanced you are because it takes time to develop the skill of truly going to failure.
 
No. The muscles don’t think they don’t have brains.
What you’re describing is simply wasted effort and accumulated fatigue.
That’s why I don’t count warm up/feeder sets. But some people do. Feeder sets stimulate the muscles a little but I agree with you, they don’t do much. Training with enough volume using a progressive overload is what stimulates maximum muscle mass. I don’t think a lot of people train hard enough with consistency to gain maximum muscle size, especially those taking PED’S. Just my opinion from observation. I have to hit the weights hard in order to grow!
 
Cool stuff. That is Mercury Morris on the pullover machine.

I would be interested in your opinion of the MedX equipment. I got tested by Arthur on the leg extension machine, plotting my strength curve. When I get mine I will post it if I remember.

Arthur had some MedX machines in his living room. I asked him to train me, I said this was his last opportunity 😉 he wisely said no.
Medx is my favorite.
Ill try and remember to post a pic of the med x leg extension tomorrow. It even has a handle where you can spot yourself to do forced reps
 
There’s no one sized fits all but there are parameters that have to be met.
We’re not special snow flakes.
The truth is low volume is less effective for beginners and becomes more effective the more advanced you are because it takes time to develop the skill of truly going to failure.
I agree that low volume is less effective for beginners because they haven’t learned how to develop their mind—muscle link and their ability to generate enough intensity to train to failure while working the targeted muscle. But as we progress, we need more volume along with training to failure and the improved mind muscle link to get the most out of our training. We can’t go backward. We must go forward unless we just want to just maintain what we have.
 

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