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Help me go about this;

100% - Depending on your base level athleticism you’ll be close or at that level. Run through the power program then message me.

It’s purely an assessment of skills then actually breaking down these skills into multiple modalities that can be trained in conjunction multiple times per week to increase base line performance.

These athletes typically only trained their competitive skill then baseline endurance or strength. Jeff’s stuff is truly third generation regarding physiological adaptation.

Jeff Nichols and Ross Edgley are two guys to look into. They write and do all the programming for the largest and most well funded human performance program on the planet.

Hey bro, I sent you a PM asking a couple questions wanted to get a little more specific on those programs and certain recommendations…

You’ve got some pretty interesting logs (from what I’ve seen so far)

I appreciate all the input; you’ve got me going down a rabbit hole with this stuff lol 😂
 
Morning Marssel -

I hate disagreements online mate but holding firm on my post. I fully understand we haven’t interacted much on this forum and you may not follow my training/logs.

Few things here - Bodybuilders are not athletic due to a myriad of factors. Primarily being lactate threshold work. Running is a very small portion of it. Non ballistic work, fascial chain work and the list continues.

Bodybuilders think of water retention purely (not in all cases) as being subcutaneous or intramuscular. There is also severe pleural “bloat” that occurs when aromatic atop new occurs. A huge chunk of compounds also effect pulmonary and cardiological function in a negative function as well. There will be certain outliers in regards to individuals who do not have RHR and performance based BP spikes while doing sprints or LSD runs etc but that is few and far between.

As far as the “special operators” aspect of your post. Fully get you don’t follow my stuff, follow my social media etc.

I spent 15 years with an east coast SEAL team and now work human performance for one of the three tier one organizations on this planet. No one is running over 300mg test, rarely are individuals running over 100mg. Weight gain is unavoidable and directly hinders performance. The amount of data out there on this stuff for performance now not bodybuilding, is overwheliming.

Baseline physical requirements - baseline to just get into the door not pass a course.

3 miles 18 minutes
30 pull ups
120 sit ups
140 push ups

Compounds are meticulously studied to ensure they do not interfere with these requirements to ensure operator longevity and success as part of their replacement therapies.

Put anyone from this community on 500 test and they will fall off hard and fast.

If your with a non US based special operations group with far more lax requirements in all sincerity it doesn’t matter much (for the most part).
I had a very good friend who I trained with in the early 80s. He was 220 pounds. His brother was already in the Army Rangers. He decided to join. Guy was nuts, we called him Crazy Bill. About 1 year later, I almost didn't recognize him. He was about 180s. He told me the same, he had to back down all those steroid doses, but also told me he was in the best physical shape of his life. I don't know all details now, but he was explaining his training and it was insane.
 
Mate I think you need one thing only here
Simplicity
You said that you wanna get bigger and be leaner- nothing burn fat better and build muscle then high testosterone level. You also want to be healthy so minimal ai or none. So stick to 500 mg testosterone- sustanon idealy with daily administration and add 50 mg zinc picolinate a day as very gentle AI.
Now training
Mon Back
Tues Chest
Wed off
Thurs: Triceps quads
Friday Biceps Hams
Sat shoulders calves
Sun off
Diet wise
Protein stay where they are
Fats can go to 50-60 grams
Carbs go On Big bodyparts 500
Medium 400
Small 350
On off days200
Set up logbook
2 sets on exercise one to failure
Supplements: 2g epa dhea , green tea, good quality vits and minerals
Eaa creatine and carbs intra
That is all you need to get where you want to be in as healhy way as possible. Eat all clean with small treat once a day , thats all
 
I get bloods done a lot.

I'm 37 in February, I wouldn't say "afraid", I dont compete, just want to look good so I dont see a reason to use high doses and impact health significantly.

I partied a lot for 10-15 years and I think I did a lot of damage (although bloods are fine). I have a 1 year old daughter and damaging my health significantly or for extended period isn't an option.

Sorry OP, I dont mean to derail.

I'm good on Test, Nandrolone, Primo, GH 2ui per day, maybe an oral for 4 weeks once per year. No Tren.


Good morning Swifto - I hope this finds you well mate.

You mention "I think I did a lot of damage" - read this and it got me a tad curious. Without being super nosey/asking uncomfortable questions do you mind posting what issues you have ran into and what modalities you have looked into to rectify these issues?

Congratulations on the kiddo, wife and I are in the talks right now. Fun times. Terrifying times.
 
I had a very good friend who I trained with in the early 80s. He was 220 pounds. His brother was already in the Army Rangers. He decided to join. Guy was nuts, we called him Crazy Bill. About 1 year later, I almost didn't recognize him. He was about 180s. He told me the same, he had to back down all those steroid doses, but also told me he was in the best physical shape of his life. I don't know all details now, but he was explaining his training and it was insane.
Good morning Pesty,

Yes sir - Very very rarely will you look at any tier one/two organization and see individuals with unusual amounts of LBM. We always think we are healthy carrying around large amounts of lean mass, would love if I could find a study for cardiac function stress and larger guys but unfortunately far too hard to set up.
 
OP is a grappler, I do BJJ so it's a balance of endurance and power. The muscle gained should be lean and "Dry" and done slowly so he doesn't gas out.
 
Good morning Pesty,

Yes sir - Very very rarely will you look at any tier one/two organization and see individuals with unusual amounts of LBM. We always think we are healthy carrying around large amounts of lean mass, would love if I could find a study for cardiac function stress and larger guys but unfortunately far too hard to set up.
All i have to do is look at people that live into their 90's or 100's. They are really never bigger then average and never have been. Usually smaller then average. Height and body weight. But i don't know of anyone that thinks carrying around a lot of muscle makes you healthier. I didn't grow as much muscle as i could for my health.
 
Mast I’d a very good choice and stack well with trt. 100/100 or even 200/200. The unique properties of mast reduces the need for SERMs and will give you that extra boost it seems like you are looking for.
 
All i have to do is look at people that live into their 90's or 100's. They are really never bigger then average and never have been. Usually smaller then average. Height and body weight. But i don't know of anyone that thinks carrying around a lot of muscle makes you healthier. I didn't grow as much muscle as i could for my health.
I think this is a good point. If we look at the top men's physique Guys, I'd assume they are also abusing AAS to a degree but we don't see them dropping , having as many health issues, needing to be on various medications, sleep apnea, etc. So the question is are the drugs doing the damage, or is it more a combination of the drugs plus walking around at such a high BMI?
 
i dont mean this in a bad way. just scratching my head.
you have been on here a minute like every day. and this is where things are at?
like in all senses?
stop typing so much inject something and go lift i bet that would work. lol
 
Morning Marssel -

I hate disagreements online mate but holding firm on my post. I fully understand we haven’t interacted much on this forum and you may not follow my training/logs.

Few things here - Bodybuilders are not athletic due to a myriad of factors. Primarily being lactate threshold work. Running is a very small portion of it. Non ballistic work, fascial chain work and the list continues.

Bodybuilders think of water retention purely (not in all cases) as being subcutaneous or intramuscular. There is also severe pleural “bloat” that occurs when aromatic atop new occurs. A huge chunk of compounds also effect pulmonary and cardiological function in a negative function as well. There will be certain outliers in regards to individuals who do not have RHR and performance based BP spikes while doing sprints or LSD runs etc but that is few and far between.

As far as the “special operators” aspect of your post. Fully get you don’t follow my stuff, follow my social media etc.

I spent 15 years with an east coast SEAL team and now work human performance for one of the three tier one organizations on this planet. No one is running over 300mg test, rarely are individuals running over 100mg. Weight gain is unavoidable and directly hinders performance. The amount of data out there on this stuff for performance now not bodybuilding, is overwheliming.

Baseline physical requirements - baseline to just get into the door not pass a course.

3 miles 18 minutes
30 pull ups
120 sit ups
140 push ups

Compounds are meticulously studied to ensure they do not interfere with these requirements to ensure operator longevity and success as part of their replacement therapies.

Put anyone from this community on 500 test and they will fall off hard and fast.

If your with a non US based special operations group with far more lax requirements in all sincerity it doesn’t matter much (for the most part).
I don’t search out disagreements either and I’m not a SEAL but I am Recon so similar skill set as far as DA and such yes y’all get more money and are “experts At becoming experts” that said I’ve known many Rangers, a few ODA dudes, lots of PJs, and yes SEALs running 500 mg of test with other shit as well and NONE are baseline PTers my final PFTs were always sub 15:30 3 mile runs and I carried that a few years into my competing until I stopped running bc of its affect on overall size. I’m not saying I don’t believe u know dudes that Run those cycles I’m just saying I know what I know. Now a lot of SEALs don’t consider Force, PJs, Rangers etc to be “Special” and honestly like all inter service shit we always felt y’all get a little more credit than you’re due especially out of the water. Don’t get me wrong never met a SEAL I didn’t get on with. I also pull back to NFL players and Olympic sprinters who I consider elite athletes which you may call outliers. You have your science which I have as well but I also fall back on decades of anecdotal results. Maybe it is shifting towards lower doses I just know what I’ve seen, heard, and experienced. Mind you I was natural my entire enlistment but I was competing and hung out with the other bodybuilders who all assumed I wasn’t natty so I listened a lot more than I talked and in the end they put me on my trajectory here. So again not saying you’re wrong I’m saying that I know who I know. Oddly enough the scope of steroid use in the Navy as recently revealed even in guys not SEALs yet seems to be quite large and I simply don’t believe all these dudes especially the younger guys are dosing just above natural levels to get thru say BUDS at 21 and an elite athlete taking 100-300 mg would be pretty useless you simply wouldn’t get much and you’d lose your body’s ability to do it’s thing naturally. Why you could do a 20 mile ruck and the next day spend in the pool without drugs why woukd you take a trt dose. Sure in your case a 35 year old or older “solider for simplicity” taking trt or trt plus I get again though the units we r discussing and maybe it’s changed I’ve been out awhile but NO ONE WAS GUNNING FOR BASELINE PT STANDARDS. Yea out in the fleet maybe but not even in basic infantry or arty units are guys running around wanting to get a 3rd Class PFT, but again maybe it’s different with these younger guys, I don’t interact with anyone under 35 except for Nov. 10th. I do know that I was running 6 min miles on suspension and other highly androgenic drugs and don’t consider myself an elite athlete. I’m also 5’7 so it’s not like I’m a born runner either. The guys in the nfl are pure racehorses and shit is rampant fuck look at Edelman he was lightning on gear. I don’t believe for a second he took a low dose.
 
I think this is a good point. If we look at the top men's physique Guys, I'd assume they are also abusing AAS to a degree but we don't see them dropping , having as many health issues, needing to be on various medications, sleep apnea, etc. So the question is are the drugs doing the damage, or is it more a combination of the drugs plus walking around at such a high BMI?
I know a lot of fit females never touched AAS who are on CPAP I had apnea before I hit 176 lbs. The docs say it’s neck size and not body weight. The first thing I asked dims if I lose weight will this go away and I was told no you’re neck is to thick you’ve likely had this since you were 17 or 18 and I always had to get a weight waiver before I started lifting and that’s waist to neck ratio. I agree body weight is bad it’s what will kill me im quite certain but my granddaddy’s dad saw 100 and he drank and used snuff for like 85 years, his son did neither but made 92 and was a 300 plus pound farmer with mostly fat as the bulk of it. I think as in all things genetics still play a huge role here. Though yes you almost never see someone over 70 over 6’2 so height seems to be “bad” as well maybe even worse if the heavier exercises regularly and diet isn’t terrible.
 
I thought he and alot of cyclists also used a plethora of other drugs such as (but probably not limited to) corticosteroids, pain killers (tramadol in [articular) and insulin at times. Or was that never substantiated?
No it is and like bodybuilders take whatever people admit to and at minimum double it bc they all lie. We talk about how Al these public figures lie about their cycles until believing one supports our beliefs and then we trust Lance who lied his whole career? He’s a stud they all dope imo he won fair but he’s a liar, period. I’d bet my life he took more than 150mgs.
 
I don’t search out disagreements either and I’m not a SEAL but I am Recon so similar skill set as far as DA and such yes y’all get more money and are “experts At becoming experts” that said I’ve known many Rangers, a few ODA dudes, lots of PJs, and yes SEALs running 500 mg of test with other shit as well and NONE are baseline PTers my final PFTs were always sub 15:30 3 mile runs and I carried that a few years into my competing until I stopped running bc of its affect on overall size. I’m not saying I don’t believe u know dudes that Run those cycles I’m just saying I know what I know. Now a lot of SEALs don’t consider Force, PJs, Rangers etc to be “Special” and honestly like all inter service shit we always felt y’all get a little more credit than you’re due especially out of the water. Don’t get me wrong never met a SEAL I didn’t get on with. I also pull back to NFL players and Olympic sprinters who I consider elite athletes which you may call outliers. You have your science which I have as well but I also fall back on decades of anecdotal results. Maybe it is shifting towards lower doses I just know what I’ve seen, heard, and experienced. Mind you I was natural my entire enlistment but I was competing and hung out with the other bodybuilders who all assumed I wasn’t natty so I listened a lot more than I talked and in the end they put me on my trajectory here. So again not saying you’re wrong I’m saying that I know who I know. Oddly enough the scope of steroid use in the Navy as recently revealed even in guys not SEALs yet seems to be quite large and I simply don’t believe all these dudes especially the younger guys are dosing just above natural levels to get thru say BUDS at 21 and an elite athlete taking 100-300 mg would be pretty useless you simply wouldn’t get much and you’d lose your body’s ability to do it’s thing naturally. Why you could do a 20 mile ruck and the next day spend in the pool without drugs why woukd you take a trt dose. Sure in your case a 35 year old or older “solider for simplicity” taking trt or trt plus I get again though the units we r discussing and maybe it’s changed I’ve been out awhile but NO ONE WAS GUNNING FOR BASELINE PT STANDARDS. Yea out in the fleet maybe but not even in basic infantry or arty units are guys running around wanting to get a 3rd Class PFT, but again maybe it’s different with these younger guys, I don’t interact with anyone under 35 except for Nov. 10th. I do know that I was running 6 min miles on suspension and other highly androgenic drugs and don’t consider myself an elite athlete. I’m also 5’7 so it’s not like I’m a born runner either. The guys in the nfl are pure racehorses and shit is rampant fuck look at Edelman he was lightning on gear. I don’t believe for a second he took a low dose.
I don’t search out disagreements either and I’m not a SEAL but I am Recon so similar skill set as far as DA and such yes y’all get more money and are “experts At becoming experts” that said I’ve known many Rangers, a few ODA dudes, lots of PJs, and yes SEALs running 500 mg of test with other shit as well and NONE are baseline PTers my final PFTs were always sub 15:30 3 mile runs and I carried that a few years into my competing until I stopped running bc of its affect on overall size. I’m not saying I don’t believe u know dudes that Run those cycles I’m just saying I know what I know. Now a lot of SEALs don’t consider Force, PJs, Rangers etc to be “Special” and honestly like all inter service shit we always felt y’all get a little more credit than you’re due especially out of the water. Don’t get me wrong never met a SEAL I didn’t get on with. I also pull back to NFL players and Olympic sprinters who I consider elite athletes which you may call outliers. You have your science which I have as well but I also fall back on decades of anecdotal results. Maybe it is shifting towards lower doses I just know what I’ve seen, heard, and experienced. Mind you I was natural my entire enlistment but I was competing and hung out with the other bodybuilders who all assumed I wasn’t natty so I listened a lot more than I talked and in the end they put me on my trajectory here. So again not saying you’re wrong I’m saying that I know who I know. Oddly enough the scope of steroid use in the Navy as recently revealed even in guys not SEALs yet seems to be quite large and I simply don’t believe all these dudes especially the younger guys are dosing just above natural levels to get thru say BUDS at 21 and an elite athlete taking 100-300 mg would be pretty useless you simply wouldn’t get much and you’d lose your body’s ability to do it’s thing naturally. Why you could do a 20 mile ruck and the next day spend in the pool without drugs why woukd you take a trt dose. Sure in your case a 35 year old or older “solider for simplicity” taking trt or trt plus I get again though the units we r discussing and maybe it’s changed I’ve been out awhile but NO ONE WAS GUNNING FOR BASELINE PT STANDARDS. Yea out in the fleet maybe but not even in basic infantry or arty units are guys running around wanting to get a 3rd Class PFT, but again maybe it’s different with these younger guys, I don’t interact with anyone under 35 except for Nov. 10th. I do know that I was running 6 min miles on suspension and other highly androgenic drugs and don’t consider myself an elite athlete. I’m also 5’7 so it’s not like I’m a born runner either. The guys in the nfl are pure racehorses and shit is rampant fuck look at Edelman he was lightning on gear. I don’t believe for a second he took a low dose.
Morning Marssel -

I hate disagreements online mate but holding firm on my post. I fully understand we haven’t interacted much on this forum and you may not follow my training/logs.

Few things here - Bodybuilders are not athletic due to a myriad of factors. Primarily being lactate threshold work. Running is a very small portion of it. Non ballistic work, fascial chain work and the list continues.

Bodybuilders think of water retention purely (not in all cases) as being subcutaneous or intramuscular. There is also severe pleural “bloat” that occurs when aromatic atop new occurs. A huge chunk of compounds also effect pulmonary and cardiological function in a negative function as well. There will be certain outliers in regards to individuals who do not have RHR and performance based BP spikes while doing sprints or LSD runs etc but that is few and far between.

As far as the “special operators” aspect of your post. Fully get you don’t follow my stuff, follow my social media etc.

I spent 15 years with an east coast SEAL team and now work human performance for one of the three tier one organizations on this planet. No one is running over 300mg test, rarely are individuals running over 100mg. Weight gain is unavoidable and directly hinders performance. The amount of data out there on this stuff for performance now not bodybuilding, is overwheliming.

Baseline physical requirements - baseline to just get into the door not pass a course.

3 miles 18 minutes
30 pull ups
120 sit ups
140 push ups

Compounds are meticulously studied to ensure they do not interfere with these requirements to ensure operator longevity and success as part of their replacement therapies.

Put anyone from this community on 500 test and they will fall off hard and fast.

If your with a non US based special operations group with far more lax requirements in all sincerity it doesn’t matter much (for the most part).
Now post script I reread your post and I will admit that I’m not in the loop right now as far as what you’re doing and current JSOC type shit so I can’t say and if you are part of testing and prescribing these guys shit with medical supervision I can see that but I’m talking about guys on shit on their own and yea 17 years ago and before steroids were not being prescribed to guys or not to my knowledge though I do believe at times we were given a dball like drug or an oral androgen for short stints just like I know we were given adderrall or phentermine or some type of amphetimine but I can’t substantiate it at all. Again always got on with SEALs as far as the military goes the Corps has a strong friendly rivalry with its brothers so if I’m coming off disrespectful I mean none. I still know that in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s guys were taking more shit 100%.
 
@marssel

Didn’t want to quote the whole thing mate - replying on my phone. Big fingers, little box, little hair left to pull out, etc.

The BUDS stuff that just came out - they are not administering anabolic tests. Human performance project is inundated throughout the entirety of the NSW organization. Bi weekly bloods are done for everyone from BUDs, white roll, green team and Dam Neck as well as a myriad of other factors.

Guys are shooting for 900-1100 scores to avoid secondary testing. There was also a study that came out a few years ago across all selection events individuals with scores of like 875+ has a 80ish percentage change of graduating across the board. Guys are hedging themselves.

Your post actually brings up a different conversation completely - youth and side effects. Back in the day I would regularly run a gram of tren and 500 test, I could make all requirements. I ran that legitimately getting ready for selection and it had no deleterious affect on cardiovascular output.

Now at 35 tren even at 100mg has a severely negative impact on cardiovascular output. It could be coupled with the fact that I am 215-220 now vs. 180. I wish I was as meticulous with my data then as I am now.

Avoiding the inter service rivalry I would say there are only three organizations on this planet that specialize in DA - the command, cag and ground. Anyone looking at white side SOF as assaulters is very far off track. We all have our specialties.

Been working with some recon guys at NASAs NBL the past two years. They all put me to shame in the water. Which raises a more severe question, why the fuck does anyone still run the mk25…


 
Now post script I reread your post and I will admit that I’m not in the loop right now as far as what you’re doing and current JSOC type shit so I can’t say and if you are part of testing and prescribing these guys shit with medical supervision I can see that but I’m talking about guys on shit on their own and yea 17 years ago and before steroids were not being prescribed to guys or not to my knowledge though I do believe at times we were given a dball like drug or an oral androgen for short stints just like I know we were given adderrall or phentermine or some type of amphetimine but I can’t substantiate it at all. Again always got on with SEALs as far as the military goes the Corps has a strong friendly rivalry with its brothers so if I’m coming off disrespectful I mean none. I still know that in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s guys were taking more shit 100%.
You’re good man - no disrespect. Seeing guys argue online I’m always like hmmmmm

Good convo for sure - definitely post up any other insights sir.
 
I had a very good friend who I trained with in the early 80s. He was 220 pounds. His brother was already in the Army Rangers. He decided to join. Guy was nuts, we called him Crazy Bill. About 1 year later, I almost didn't recognize him. He was about 180s. He told me the same, he had to back down all those steroid doses, but also told me he was in the best physical shape of his life. I don't know all details now, but he was explaining his training and it was insane.
Yea totally cool I’ll admit in the 80s I was still in elementary school so don’t know much about cycles then or the Army. I do love Rangers though as they are rockstars at QRF and I think they have a lot of keeping shit the same mentality as the Corps, don’t know his cycle but if he went to Ranger School then losing 40lbs natty or not is actually normal. If you go get tabbed out you’re going to lose a minimum of 20 lbs even if you’re low muscle low bf, you literally end that school with “Ranger gut” which is that African starvation belly. So 180 sounds spot on. I also don’t know how he would take shit in training. It was hard to sneak a page of a Playboy into our training so rigs and pills woukdve been impossible unles they were literally up your ass. There’s a lot of running in the military I can’t remember anyone over 200-210 lbs I knew, I weighed 156lvs at 5’7 and I was a bigger Marine.
 
You’re good man - no disrespect. Seeing guys argue online I’m always like hmmmmm

Good convo for sure - definitely post up any other insights sir.
For sure brother I haven’t seen your SM stuff but glad you served and are alive and got all your shit still attached. You fuckers op tempo was insane so mad respect. I never get guys getting mad either I enjoy the convo as well and on the high end science shit you clearly know more than me and I’m pretty well versed. Happy Veterans Day as well. Don’t let that ball hit the ground 😄.
 

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