Protein + carbs vs. protein + fats, low fat, keto, insulin, etc, THREAD

[luki7788]

Sup Luki

Mehh not for n=1

& the millions out there including forward-thinking Functional Medicine metabolic disease MD’s and “legit” health Guru’s who espouse the same.

I understand (and of course concur) with the Law of Thermodynamics principles; but the body is much more sophisticated than that.

Diet impacts all sorts of hormones (not just insulin), so it’s much more complex than “calories in ~ calories out “ when downstream pathways are considered.

Even something as simple as protein being one macro that has a profound thermic effect is merely one example of many.

3,000 calories of fat free oyster crackers (carbs) will not produce the same weight loss or gain as 3,000 calories of a fat free Egg whites (protein) ~ not just based on the calories, but rather all of the other variables related to the macros’ impact in the body as it gets metabolized and assimilated.

I’m not much a debater. I shared “my” views and will leave it there.

Thanks

I agree, but no one will say that it is impossible to reduce body fat by being in a caloric surplus value only because, for example, there are no carbohydrates

 

[Cerberus777]

I agree, but no one will say that it is impossible to reduce body fat by being in a caloric surplus value only because, for example, there are no carbohydrates

Carbs around training only, helps some stay leaner and insulin sensitivity high. I don't loose fat but don't gain it with this method.

 

[Baphomet36]

Weightloss/gain is cals in cals out.

The best diet is one someone can adhere to with adequate protein that allows them the ability to train hard and recover.

People are fatter because because they’re eating more calories. Not because of some magical macro ratio. Food is more palatable, more accessible, and people are moving less.

People can get fat on keto, hclf, mixed ratio etc. if they’re in a surplus.

 

[luki7788]

Carbs around training only, helps some stay leaner and insulin sensitivity high. I don't loose fat but don't gain it with this method.

you do not gain fat from carbohydrates, but from the caloric surplus

Weightloss/gain is cals in cals out.

The best diet is one someone can adhere to with adequate protein that allows them the ability to train hard and recover.

People are fatter because because they’re eating more calories. Not because of some magical macro ratio. Food is more palatable, more accessible, and people are moving less.

People can get fat on keto, hclf, mixed ratio etc. if they’re in a surplus.

exactly

 

[qbkilla]

Weightloss/gain is cals in cals out.

The best diet is one someone can adhere to with adequate protein that allows them the ability to train hard and recover.

People are fatter because because they’re eating more calories. Not because of some magical macro ratio. Food is more palatable, more accessible, and people are moving less.

People can get fat on keto, hclf, mixed ratio etc. if they’re in a surplus.

This. I roll my eyes when anyone says they can't gain or lose weight. If you can do math or use an app and control what you put in your mouth, you control your weight. I have weighed 170 and 240, I could hit either again with one tool MyFitnessPal and a scale

 

[OuchThatHurts]

This does sound interesting. Do you have a day of eating on rest/training days written somewhere so I can look?

When wanting to gain muscle I do way better on high carb and very low fat but when cutting it doesn't do shit for me and I need to go low carb almost immediately.

Not really TBH. I could give you an approximation but it varies so greatly from day to day. Seriously, no magic or secret sauce there. Just a daily amount of calories. Low carbs on off days and high carbs around workout days. High protein always.

1. Steak, burger, venison, chicken, fish, pork, eggs, nuts, mushrooms, etc
2. Rice, cream of wheat or rice, oatmeal, potatoes and yams, bananas and plantains, shredded wheat, fruits and vegetables, etc
3. Butter, olive oil, meat fats including fish/krill oil, olive oil, etc

Cro-Magnon Diet is simple. If you cant shoot, spear, or hook it, pull it off a tree or shrub, or pull it out of the ground you probably shouldn't be eating it.

Simple. Just 6 meals of #1 and #3 on non-training days and 500gms+ of #2 pre, during, and after heavy training on training days with meals. Avoid mixing fats and carbs. I personally don't need a refeed because with the carbs during training, I never really bottom out but am always depleting. You may need that refeed but so far I haven't. But remember, I have all the muscle I want now. And it's not likely going anywhere unless I get some wasting disease. From here out, it's just about maintaining existing muscle and keeping bodyfat low. You young guys may need to tweak all this.

So in addition to a clean diet, whey protein iso or hydro, BCAAs & EAAs, I take a nebula of health-related supps for longevity.

Insulin
Met + Berberine
D3 + K, C, B-complex, Zinc, Magnesium, Selenium
Synthergine, NAC, TUDCA, milk thistle
Telmisartan + propranolol + aspirin + cialis
Promethazine (occasionally for sleep)

Staying detoxified with low inflammation is key and keeping stress levels low.

If I remember anything else, I'll add it when I get home. I may be somewhat techie but I still like a handwritten logbook. Penciling in a PR is much more gratifying than tapping it into an app IMO.

 

[Cerberus777]

I believe you guys are correct in general. There are people who are more sensitive to carbs and can eat a higher amount of calories with most energy coming from fats. I happen to be one of those people.

 

[OuchThatHurts]

The 'calories in calories out' is (to me) a worthess maxim. First, many of you don't even measure your calories precisely nor do any of us really know exactly how many calories we are burning on a given day. Say calories in calories out to someone with the shits, or stressed out. Maybe if you maintained exact calories daily with identical activity/stress/absorption daily, within a month you could see an uptick in bodyfat or some fat loss and muscle gain.

But it does no good debating it. Just eat a ton of clean healthy calories every day applying some science to timing of macros and be consistent making adjustments from time to time. But as long as it's a lot, training heavy and consistent, and absorb as much as you can both physically and mentally. Knowledge and common sense build muscle more than anything.

 

[Baphomet36]

The 'calories in calories out' is (to me) a worthess maxim. First, many of you don't even measure your calories precisely nor do any of us really know exactly how many calories we are burning on a given day. Say calories in calories out to someone with the shits, or stressed out. Maybe if you maintained exact calories daily with identical activity/stress/absorption daily, within a month you could see an uptick in bodyfat or some fat loss and muscle gain.

But it does no good debating it. Just eat a ton of clean healthy calories every day applying some science to timing of macros and be consistent making adjustments from time to time. But as long as it's a lot, training heavy and consistent, and absorb as much as you can both physically and mentally. Knowledge and common sense build muscle more than anything.

Literally the body works on energy in energy out aka calories. Macros are nothing more than a way of dividing calories.

Nothing you just said is an argument against cals in/cals out.
You don’t log your food intake?
How is literally the law of thermodynamics a worthless maxim?
For some reason tracking calories literally works for everyone who does it consistently for their goal. How is that a worthless maxim?
Whatever you consume throughout the week adds up to a certain amount of calories.
What do you do if you start getting fat or if you’re not gaining fast enough?
You either eat more food or less correct?
It’s not as complicated as you’re making it seem.
Countless studies back this up.
Just eat a ton of clean healthy calories everyday is terrible advice honestly that teaches people nothing

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Literally the body works on energy in energy out aka calories. Macros are nothing more than a way of dividing calories.

Nothing you just said is an argument against cals in/cals out.

I didn't say calories in calories out doesn't exist. I said it's a worthless standard because the calories you burn day to day, week to week is variable.

You don’t log your food intake?

Of course I do.

How is literally the law of thermodynamics a worthless maxim?

I never said anything to challenge the Law of Thermodynamics.

For some reason tracking calories literally works for everyone who does it consistently for their goal. How is that a worthless maxim?

You literally say literally too much. Of course tracking calories works. Most of the time. Perhaps CICO something to strive for. I can and do track calories in but there's no way to gauge how many calories stay in.

Whatever you consume throughout the week adds up to a certain amount of calories.
What do you do if you start getting fat or if you’re not gaining fast enough?
You either eat more food or less correct?

Correct. But making weekly or monthly caloric adjustments does not involve CICO. Maybe on some level but it's not part of adjusting dietary intake. How many exact calories did you burn today so far? Of the calories you consumed so far today, how many were absorbed?

It’s not as complicated as you’re making it seem.
Countless studies back this up.
Just eat a ton of clean healthy calories everyday is terrible advice honestly that teaches people nothing

That was my entire point. Trying to tabulate CICO is complicated. Eating a lot is simple. I eat a very tight diet and meal schedule. Of course I count calories. Yet week to week my weight can fluctuate by 10 lbs or more in either direction. Same calories, same meals, same time of day.

My opinion and method is forget CICO, just get less than you need for cut, all you need to maintain, more than you need for gain. Is CICO in there somewhere? Probably, but I have no way to precisely know where that it is.

 

[Cerberus777]

Calories are determined by how long something burns in a lab. Our bodies used macro and micro nutrients differently than just combustion. CICO is best done with averages to get a clear picture. But how you process and use protein,fat and carbs differ. Eat 3k calories of just one for a week and see if everything stays the same and tell me CICO is all that maters.

 

[qbkilla]

For me personally I can make the scale move up or down easily with small changes in calorie intake. I have no way to measure how many I burn but as the weeks and months go by it doesn't matter, all I need to know is how many I'm taking in to weigh what I desire

 

[Baphomet36]

Calories are determined by how long something burns in a lab. Our bodies used macro and micro nutrients differently than just combustion. CICO is best done with averages to get a clear picture. But how you process and use protein,fat and carbs differ. Eat 3k calories of just one for a week and see if everything stays the same and tell me CICO is all that maters.

If you’re in surplus you will gain weight no matter what you eat, if you’re in a deficit you will lose weight no matter what you eat.
This is objectively true.
All calories are simply a unit of energy.

Yes protein and fiber increase the thermic effect of food.

Yes if someone feels better on a certain macro ratio they will be able to perform better in the gym and they will have a better body composition as long as they have adequate protein.

No one is going to argue that you’ll have a better body composition or feel better on 3000 calories of sugar vs 3000 calories of eggwhites.
But literally no one is just going to eat a single macro diet. So that’s a mute point.

It’s all about averages and consistency.
Hell take 3 6oz chicken breast and they’ll have 3 different protein/fat ratios but it doesn’t have to be that deep or that complicated.

 

[Baphomet36]

For me personally I can make the scale move up or down easily with small changes in calorie intake. I have no way to measure how many I burn but as the weeks and months go by it doesn't matter, all I need to know is how many I'm taking in to weigh what I desire

Same along with everyone I’ve ever helped diet for well over a decade

 

[OuchThatHurts]

Same along with everyone I’ve ever helped diet for well over a decade

10yrs huh? I've been training people power and diet for double that time. Including my son who wrestled as I did. And I've posted before and afters of my trainies on this site. One lost 100lbs in a year while maintaining muscle. My son at 13yrs old and this was 15 years ago. Now he's 6'1" 200lbs. Probably better condition than 90% of the men on this site. CICO means jack shit.

 

[Baphomet36]

10yrs huh? I've been training people power and diet for double that time. Including my son who wrestled as I did. And I've posted before and afters of my trainies on this site. One lost 100lbs in a year while maintaining muscle. My son at 13yrs old and this was 15 years ago. Now he's 6'1" 200lbs. Probably better condition than 90% of the men on this site. CICO means jack shit.

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I said over a decade. It’s almost 2. You just don’t understand what cico is apparently. No you literally do not.
Regardless of how you do it any diet or nutrition plan comes down to cico.
Cico isn’t a tool its a law. If you’re gaining you’re in a surplus, losing you’re in a deficit. Calorie counting is a tool.

You deny this? The law thermodynamics? A physical law? Does your son or any client somehow exist outside of the physical realm? They should be studied.

How are giving them diets or nutrition plans that don’t involve day or weekly divided calories in some form or fashion? They’re consuming calories correct?

 

[OuchThatHurts]

I said over a decade. It’s almost 2. You just don’t understand what cico is apparently. No you literally do not.
Regardless of how you do it any diet or nutrition plan comes down to cico.
Cico isn’t a tool its a law. If you’re gaining you’re in a surplus, losing you’re in a deficit. Calorie counting is a tool.

You deny this? The law thermodynamics? A physical law? Does your son or any client somehow exist outside of the physical realm? They should be studied.

How are giving them diets or nutrition plans that don’t involve day or weekly divided calories in some form or fashion? They’re consuming calories correct?

Let me see some of your before and after trainees' pics. I already answered all these questions above. Go back to YouTube and IG. I'm on the ground here with kids from Penn State to 60yr-olds, getting results. John taught me all I need to know about dieting.

Of course you can't put on more weight (energy/matter) than you're taking in. But there's no way to tabulate calories out. How many calories did you say you burned today so far? 2,843.2 kcals right? Buried down in our diets CICO is a factor somewhere but that shit doesn't play out day to day and you know it. Thermodynamics. I am fully aware of the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics but I don't pull out my calculator for every meal of every day. You don't need to.

 

[pesty4077]

I personally use myfitnesspal. Not to count calories, but make me accountable on what I eat. When people think the quality of food isn't a factor in losing fat or gaining muscle, I shake my head. Calories in and calories out is just a latest fad on these social media sites. I guess they are more worried about losing weight then losing fat and gaining muscle. OTH is right, not everyday will you burn EXACT amount of calories. I eat when hungry. I might eat 2800 calories one day and 3800 calories next day. I eat more calories on training days, because frankly I am hungrier.

Now how can you determine your BMR and amount of calories when you throw drugs in the picture? That is constantly changing with a lot of you too with things like T3, clenbuterol, GH, Insulin, etc. Even tren will change your composition. My point is you are not going to burn the same amount of calories everyday in and out. I personally can eat 800 more calories on GH and look the same. I always go by mirror, not as much calories to determine where I need to be. I think I do a good job of this to get a lean body, especially at my age. The moral of the story, don't get hung up on calories as much. Get a good mirror or someone who really knows to give you a second opinion.

 

[qbkilla]

I personally use myfitnesspal. Not to count calories, but make me accountable on what I eat. When people think the quality of food isn't a factor in losing fat or gaining muscle, I shake my head. Calories in and calories out is just a latest fad on these social media sites. I guess they are more worried about losing weight then losing fat and gaining muscle. OTH is right, not everyday will you burn EXACT amount of calories. I eat when hungry. I might eat 2800 calories one day and 3800 calories next day. I eat more calories on training days, because frankly I am hungrier.

Now how can you determine your BMR and amount of calories when you throw drugs in the picture? That is constantly changing with a lot of you too with things like T3, clenbuterol, GH, Insulin, etc. Even tren will change your composition. My point is you are not going to burn the same amount of calories everyday in and out. I personally can eat 800 more calories on GH and look the same. I always go by mirror, not as much calories to determine where I need to be. I think I do a good job of this to get a lean body, especially at my age. The moral of the story, don't get hung up on calories as much. Get a good mirror or someone who really knows to give you a second opinion.

My experience has been different. I use MFP and I'm always 3200 training and 2900 off days, low carb those off days. This keeps me at 185 lean. I will change AAS dosages for example..

400 prop 150 mast
200 tren 200 prop
250 prop 50drol Ed

Even add insulin pre and post, change cardio type and add or subtract minutes per session, and change routine and training volume.

However if those calories are the same, weight and measurements do not change over time. If I were to add or subtract calories by even 200 per day, based on past experience doing this, the scale will move up or down. That's just my experience as someone who uses MFP every day haven't not logged a day for about 5 years if I had to guess. Back in the day I'd carry a sheet of paper and add p+c+ f and multiply by 4 and 9 to get calories don't miss that lol

 

[OuchThatHurts]

However if those calories are the same, weight and measurements do not change over time.

Oh but they will. Take it to the bank. You act like energy expenditure and BMR are going to be static for life. They aren't.