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Is it possible that steroids increase baseline muscle & strength separate from training? šŸ§

headtrainer

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For discussion purposes:
Is it possible that steroids increase baseline muscle & strength separate from training? šŸ§ In other words, could it be that steroids donā€™t enhance muscle and strength through training, but rather increases the baseline in which you begin. Iā€™m going to make reference to a study whereā€”1) 1st group of test subjects took 600 mgs of test weekly and did not train. 2) 2nd group of test subjects trained with weights using no testosterone supplementation, and 3) 3rd group of test subjects took 600 mgs of test weekly and lifted weights. The 1st group of test subjects who took 600 mgs of testosterone and didnā€™t lift weights gained about the same amount of muscle & strength as the 2nd group of test subjects who only lifted weights. The 3rd group of subjects who took 600 mgs of testosterone and lifted weights made double the gains as the test subjects in groups 1 & 2 given the diet was the same. It makes me wonder if thereā€™s less synergistic effects between lifting and taking testosterone than we have been led to believe.
 
Of course just even look at guys who have natural very high test level. They usually are bigger and leaner then their friends.
But I'd think that higher test more helped during puberty vs later in life.

My opinion just bro science...I'm sure studies say different.

If you take your average Joe who doesn't workout 180 lbs at 14 percent and put him on a gram of test and he never trains he isn't going to look much different.

I think we overrate AAS and minimize diet and training. How many people use AAS but don't train consistently or eat right and don't look like they use? I used to hookup people at the gym years ago most didn't look like they lifted. They would be socializing in the gym not working hard and admittedly drank, didn't eat right, skipped workouts. I believe if they hadn't been on but trained consistently with intensity and had a flawless diet they would look better.
 
I think synergy implies 1+1=3 which is not the case so I would agree that steroid and training are not synergistic. Steroids=1, lifting=1, so more like 1+1=2 as the study suggests.
 
Easy.

Itā€™s called puberty.

Your muscles will grow in the absence of exercise.
 
AAS haven't been developed and synthesized to be paired with weight lifting.
Of course they work on their own.
 
I am guessing the amount of muscle put on by groups 1 and 2 was only a few pounds. Seems the studies i saw years ago would point to gaining maybe 5 pounds with just using AS. If the dose was continued long term i would expect the gains to slow drastically or possibly stop with the AS only group. The no test group could continue to make gains for years from training and a good diet. And the test and train group could make gains for some time out distancing everyone.
 
This is the generally accepted science. We use it in humans formally for muscle wasting. We use it in livestock formally and no training whatsoever (ever see a non juiced cow - looks way different). We use it "informally" for performance enhancement of healthy trained athletes - PDR for the longest time was emphatic that there were no benefits there but...we all knew what has become undeniable and accepted.
 
For discussion purposes:
Is it possible that steroids increase baseline muscle & strength separate from training? šŸ§ In other words, could it be that steroids donā€™t enhance muscle and strength through training, but rather increases the baseline in which you begin. Iā€™m going to make reference to a study whereā€”1) 1st group of test subjects took 600 mgs of test weekly and did not train. 2) 2nd group of test subjects trained with weights using no testosterone supplementation, and 3) 3rd group of test subjects took 600 mgs of test weekly and lifted weights. The 1st group of test subjects who took 600 mgs of testosterone and didnā€™t lift weights gained about the same amount of muscle & strength as the 2nd group of test subjects who only lifted weights. The 3rd group of subjects who took 600 mgs of testosterone and lifted weights made double the gains as the test subjects in groups 1 & 2 given the diet was the same. It makes me wonder if thereā€™s less synergistic effects between lifting and taking testosterone than we have been led to believe.
This is true yes youā€™re first but if roids youā€™ll put on 10 lbs or so no matter what but why woukd you plus the look isnā€™t the same as even a natty who lifts.
 
This study gets referred to over and over, yet for some reason nobody seems to notice that some, most, or all of the supposed "muscle gain" in this study could have simply come from glycogen storage.

The vast majority of guys who jump on TRT or their first cycle put on 4-10 pounds of glycogen within a couple of weeks, and everyone tells them to calm down, it's not actual tissue.

But a study uses underwater weighing and gives people 600mg of test a week and nobody bats an eyelash at a sudden increase in FFM.
 

Sounds like this one.
This was a good read! Really throws a wrench in synergy of ass and training. This is conflicting on what I believed so my brain needs time to process this info
 
This was a good read! Really throws a wrench in synergy of ass and training. This is conflicting on what I believed so my brain needs time to process this info
How does this throw a wrench in the synergy of AAS and Training? The Testosterone+Exercise group gained twice as much LBM as any other group.
 
synĀ·erĀ·gy
/Ėˆsinərjē/
Learn to pronounce

noun
  1. the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.
    "the synergy between artist and record company

Simply because as someone has already stated 1+1=2 not 1+1=3
 
This study gets referred to over and over, yet for some reason nobody seems to notice that some, most, or all of the supposed "muscle gain" in this study could have simply come from glycogen storage.

The vast majority of guys who jump on TRT or their first cycle put on 4-10 pounds of glycogen within a couple of weeks, and everyone tells them to calm down, it's not actual tissue.

But a study uses underwater weighing and gives people 600mg of test a week and nobody bats an eyelash at a sudden increase in FFM.
Whole-body glycogen content is approximately 600 g.
Each gram of glycogen carries three grams of water.
This is 2,4kg total.
So in order to gain 5lbs, one should stay at zero carbs and very low calories for weeks (and even then, your glycogen would hardly be zero) then suddenly carb up as soon as he starts TRT.
This scenario is pretty damn unlikely, and we're talking about 5lbs of glycogen + water.
Let alone 10lbs.
This phenomenon has its place but definitely can't account for the whole weight gain.
 
synĀ·erĀ·gy
/Ėˆsinərjē/
Learn to pronounce

noun
  1. the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.
    "the synergy between artist and record company

Simply because as someone has already stated 1+1=2 not 1+1=3
1+1 =2 would imply that steroids don't allow us to lift more and recover faster. I absolutely think the reason they work is because we train and eat properly. Not because we can just shoot them and see gains.
 
1+1 =2 would imply that steroids don't allow us to lift more and recover faster. I absolutely think the reason they work is because we train and eat properly. Not because we can just shoot them and see gains.
This would sound like wisdom if it weren't abjectly false. Studies REPEATEDLY have shown that AAS, even without training, increase LBM and reduce bodyfat. It's a fact. Remember facts?

Will you look like you are well-exercised or trained? No. But you will be leaner and more muscular. It's an immutable fact.

But here at proM, we do the heavy lifting (not the juice) because we're animals here. In a good way. We love it.
 
This study gets referred to over and over, yet for some reason nobody seems to notice that some, most, or all of the supposed "muscle gain" in this study could have simply come from glycogen storage.
It's addressed in the link I posted.
 
This would sound like wisdom if it weren't abjectly false. Studies REPEATEDLY have shown that AAS, even without training, increase LBM and reduce bodyfat. It's a fact. Remember facts?

Will you look like you are well-exercised or trained? No. But you will be leaner and more muscular. It's an immutable fact.

But here at proM, we do the heavy lifting (not the juice) because we're animals here. In a good way. We love it.
Not disagreeing I'm sure they increase lbm by some amount without any work.

But if we take 3 identical triplets... obviously we can't but if we did..

1 takes 500 mg never trains
2 takes nothing but lifts under guidance of a reputable coach
3. 500 mg + coach

3 will gain the most, then 2, then 1 in my opinion

The amount of % of lbm gain by 3 will exceed the % gained by both 1 and 2 in the long term IMO

Would you agree on this? 1 will gain a few lbs initially, 2 will make gains then stall, 3 will make the greatest gains and they will continue longer before stalling.
 

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