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My story

I hope all goes well with your health.

Please keep us informed how things are progressing. Your post and Baldnazi's are NOT a waste of time. It could help people.

Thank you.
 
I know women on the pill get this so it may have something to do woth high estrogen. BN did you ever taking any anti-estrogens when you cycled your high dose test? I never had too because I never bloated bad or got gyno so I never used an anti estrogen unless it was pre contest.I wonder if this could have played a part in it? You know my estrogen had to be high on 1.2-1.5g of test sometimes.

Yes perhaps. Woman's bc raises estrogen and progesterone I believe. Specific aas do the same. There has to be some correlation here if it isnt a fluke.
 
I know this is FAR from a scientific study, but I think it is note worthy. I was a pro wrestler in my 20's and I believe that no one is more reckless than wrestlers. I knew guys that were on steroids and painkillers for 20+ years plus drinking and coke on top of that. There just isn't the knowlege there is in the bbing community.**broken link removed** I realize that this is the WORST type of logic "they did it and are ok, so it must be ok". From this list of deaths there are only 1 or 2 liver related problems, granted some say "unknown" or just "cancer". I know this is hardly evidence I just find it interesting. Also I know zip about what this liver condition is and thank the principles and affected for discussing this and for their knowledge, I'm not trying to make light of their situation.
 
it seems as though the common factors right now are:

  • high dosages
  • tren

so right now it looks as though the estrogen conversions causing high levels of estrogen or tren itself seems to be the problem.

its pretty frightening...
 
i pulled this off PubMed:

The effects of dose and duration of estrogen treatment on cholestasis, hepatic regeneration, and the genesis of liver tumors are evaluated in this work. Estrogens, especially at high doses during pregnancy or after long use of oral contraceptives (OCs), cause a constant diminution of bile secretion which remains subclinical in the great majority of cases. Ethinyl estradiol causes a constant but reversible cholestasis in the rat. 2 categories of cholestasis related to estrogens are distinguished in clinical practice; cholestasis induced by estrogens in pregnancy or in OCs, and cholestasis aggravated or revealed by estrogens, such as primitive biliary cirrhosis. Cholestasis induced by estrogens is dose-dependent, but few clinical data are available on this point. Experience has shown that a woman predisposed to cholestasis due to condition even with low-dose combined OCs. OCs are contraindicated for women genetically predisposed to cholestasis. Evidence has been found of an interaction between estrogen and DNA in the initiation of regenerative processes after experimental hepatectomy. 2 benign liver tumors, hepatic adenomas and focal nodular hyperplasias, have become more common with widespread diffusion of OCs. The role of estrogens in the genesis of hepatic adenomas is well established, but is more controversial with focul nodular hyperplasia. The appearance of low- dose OCs does not seem to have decreased the incidence of benign liver tumors. On the other hand, 2 series totalling 113 cases have demonstrated that the risk of adenoma increases significantly with the duration of treatment, and another study of 32 cases of focal nodular hyperplasia and 12 adenomas showed that most of the women had used OCs for more than 5 years. Both types of tumor carry risks of hemorrhagic accidents, and adenomas at least also carry carcinoma appears more significant in a country like Great Britain with a very low prevalence of such cancers. Benign liver tumors are very rare and should not affect prescription of OCs. A hepatobiliary sonogram should be obtained for women seeking OCs. A sonographic image of a tumor less than 5 cm in diameter with the characteristics of a benign tumor should prompt termination of OCs and reexamination in 4 weeks. If the tumor is over 5 cm in diameter the diagnosis should be confirmed by another technique. The nodular hyperplasias that are large, painful, and easily accessible. Recent epidemiologic studies suggest that the prevalence of asymptomatic lithiases is not very different in OC users and nonusers, but the frequency of complications leading to cholecystectomy is greater in women receiving longterm estrogen treatment. An asymptomatic lithiasis in a young OC user does not necessarily require termination of OCs.

this may have something to do with the time periods that you were on and the estrogen levels...

ill do some more research for you later
 
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it seems as though the common factors right now are:

  • high dosages
  • tren

so right now it looks as though the estrogen conversions causing high levels of estrogen or tren itself seems to be the problem.

its pretty frightening...

I can see the correlation but he said he only used 100mg tren ED at the highest. Yes thats a high dose, but I gaurantee there are 100's using that dose if not more. His cycle's may have been high, as were BN's but they dont seem to be that much higher than many many others I hear. I have a feeling its something else. Wish we could figure it out.
 
I can see the correlation but he said he only used 100mg tren ED at the highest. Yes thats a high dose, but I gaurantee there are 100's using that dose if not more. His cycle's may have been high, as were BN's but they dont seem to be that much higher than many many others I hear. I have a feeling its something else. Wish we could figure it out.

If BN would like we can post some of our old cycles too see if anything what they were like.
 
I can see the correlation but he said he only used 100mg tren ED at the highest. Yes thats a high dose, but I gaurantee there are 100's using that dose if not more. His cycle's may have been high, as were BN's but they dont seem to be that much higher than many many others I hear. I have a feeling its something else. Wish we could figure it out.

it could have some genetic basis to it, they may just be genetically predisposed to these problems. just because not EVERYONE who does "compound A" does not mean that that's not the cause. they may be geneticall predisposed, as said in the article i quoted, to the problems and tren/high dosages/high estrogen or whatever the cause may have just set it off...
 
OBJECTIVE: The relationship between sex hormones and hepatocellular adenoma development is well established. On the contrary, their contribution to liver adenomatosis (LA) development is still a debatable issue. Recently, inactivating mutations of hepatocyte nuclear factor-1alpha (HNF-1alpha) transcription factor gene or activating mutations of beta-catenin have been demonstrated in some liver adenomas, and a possible link between HNF-1alpha gene mutations and oral contraceptives has been suggested. Only two cases of regressive LA after hormone withdrawal therapy have been described so far but without any information concerning the molecular characteristics of the tumours. CASE: We report the case of a 48-year-old woman with LA, who had been taking an androgenic progestin therapy (lynestrenol) for 10 years. A major regression in the number and size of the lesions was observed 6 months after complete withdrawal of this therapy. METHODS: Hepatocellular adenomas were studied by immunohistochemistry for oestrogen, progesterone and androgen receptors (ER, PR and AR respectively), and for beta-catenin. Direct sequencing of the HNF-1alpha gene was also performed. RESULTS: For the first time, we demonstrate significant immunostaining of AR in the hepatocellular adenomas. This staining was negative in the partially regressive adenoma. Immunostainings for ER and PR were negative. HNF-1alpha and the beta-catenin pathways were not involved in tumour pathogenesis. CONCLUSIONS: Our case suggests a role of androgenic progestin therapy in some cases of LA. Hormone therapy withdrawal may induce a significant regression in lesions.

now this article off pubmed also says taht it may have something to do with androgenic progestin therapy.
 
here we go:

Hepatocellular adenomas associated with anabolic androgenic steroid abuse in bodybuilders: a report of two cases and a review of the literature.Socas L, Zumbado M, Pérez-Luzardo O, Ramos A, Pérez C, Hernández JR, Boada LD.
Department of Radiology, Cajal Clinical Centre, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Canary Islands, Spain.

Anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are used illicitly at high doses by bodybuilders. The misuse of these drugs is associated with serious adverse effects to the liver, including cellular adenomas and adenocarcinomas. We report two very different cases of adult male bodybuilders who developed hepatocellular adenomas following AAS abuse. The first patient was asymptomatic but had two large liver lesions which were detected by ultrasound studies after routine medical examination. The second patient was admitted to our hospital with acute renal failure and ultrasound (US) studies showed mild hepatomegaly with several very close hyperecogenic nodules in liver, concordant with adenomas at first diagnosis. In both cases the patients have evolved favourably and the tumours have shown a tendency to regress after the withdrawal of AAS. The cases presented here are rare but may well be suggestive of the natural course of AAS induced hepatocellular adenomas. In conclusion, sportsmen taking AAS should be considered as a group at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone related tumours. Consequently, they should be carefully and periodically monitored with US studies. In any case, despite the size of the tumours detected in these two cases, the possibility of spontaneous tumour regression must also be taken in account.

PMID: 15849280 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

im trying to get the full article...but i hate pubmed lol ill see what i can dig up...
 
here's one more specifically about an Indian bodybuilder who died from a hepatic tumour.

A fatal rupture of an hepatic tumour occurred in an athlete who had been taking anabolic steroids for several years as an aid to body building. The case illustrates the hazards of non-therapeutic androgen administration, and emphasises the need for athletes to be made clear of the disturbances to gonadal function, liver structure and function, and the threat to life.

Hepatic tumours induced by anabolic steroids in an athlete
 
anadrol caused me permanent kidney problems. i was young and inexerienced and did not know its toxicity. took it cause i ran out of dbol but was drinking also.
I am now under a kidney specialist as at 33 i have already lost 15% of kidney function.
 
[Liver pathology associated with anabolic androgenic steroids][Article in Danish]


Søe KL, Søe M, Gluud CN.
Medicinsk gastroenterologisk afdeling, Hvidovre Hospital, København.

This review regards the liver damaging side-effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS). It seems that AAS can cause development of peliosis hepatis, subcellular changes of hepatocytes, hepatocellular hyperplasia and hepatocellular adenomas. On the other hand, it has not been convincingly proved that AAS can cause development of hepatocellular carcinomas when used in usual therapeutical doses. Tumours reported as hepatocellular carcinomas caused by AAS seem to be hyperplastic lesions of a benign nature that are able to regress on withdrawal of the putative agent. The effect of untraditional combinations of AAS and high-dose AAS is not yet known, leaving the possibility of a carcinogenic effect in those cases.

PMID: 8016966 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

this article seems to defend AAS a little bit, it seems to say that the high dosages may contribute to the problems. unfortunately i cant get the whole article, pubmed wont let me.

one common theme in all of these articles is the reference to progestin. im gonna go out on a limb and say that these doctors believe there is a serious correlation and possibly cause-and-effect relationship between progestin and these liver adenomas. i do think this is something we have to look at more in depth and think about this.

i really wish i could get the whole article concerning the two bodybuilders, im gonna keep working on it.
 
first thing that pops out to me is that it refers directly to 17-alpha alkylated AAS, i know that isn't the case with 2BigFred, he has stated many times he used orals only twice, but it is something that everyone needs to realize. they are NOT SAFE. its the first thing mentioned in the article. it says "These hepatic alterations are caused almost exclusively by 17-alkylated AAS."

ok here's the first guy:

he's taken AAS for 15 years, primarily 8 week cycles with 2 week breaks. he's taken stanozolol, oxymetholone, nandrelone decanoate, testosterone enanthate, and methenolone enanthate. first thing there that pops out to me is that he didn't use trenbolone. and this guy's oral dosaging was INSANE. i dont know the accuracy of this information, but it claims he took 400mg/day of orals and 600mg/2-3 times a week depending on the cycle. didnt smoke, didnt drink. liver values were a little off, but not bad. he had 2 large liver lesions.

The absence of any other risk factor and the previous history of AAS consumption at high doses allowed us to establish the aetiology of the liver tumours: hepatic adenomas secondary to AAS abuse.

i think this is really important:

At present, 4 years after the diagnosis and subsequent to further ecographic examinations, to our surprise, there has been a slight decrease in the size of the tumours (of about 1–2 cm in the tumour in the left lobe and 3–4 cm in the tumour in the right lobe) (not shown). Liver function has also clearly improved. Serum levels of transaminases have returned to normal, as have the other serum markers of liver function. As in previous examinations, coagulation tests and serum levels of AFP were absolutely normal. On the other hand, the serum levels of sex hypophyseal hormones (FSH and LH) were evaluated and found to be normal, thus suggesting that the withdrawal of AAS may have induced the total recovery of the hypothalamic-hypophyseal axis. However, the patient continues in the above mentioned liver transplantation program and undergoes periodic examination because of the enormous size and the potential malignant transformation of the liver lesions.

apparently his body recovered almost fully after he stopped his usage and is trying to fix itself...

second guy:

again 8 week cycles with 2 weeks in between. this guy is 23. he used stanozolol, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, testosterone phenylpropionate, and boldenone. again, NO TREN. The patient began to show symptoms after 6 months of treatment with AAS and 1 month of treatment with diuretics and a restrictive diet. again, didnt smoke or drink. the guy was a mess when he came in, had acute renal failure, muscle damage, metabolic alkalosis, hypokaliaemia, and hypernatraemia.

The marked hypokaliaemia suffered by the patient could be explained by the fact that this bodybuilder did not maintain an adequate Na+, K+ and water intake over the training periods, and, furthermore, self administered a loop diuretic. This marked hypokaliaemia favoured muscle damage and rhabdomyolisis. Furthermore, the high doses of self administered AAS presumably promoted aggression and other changes in attitude that could explain the excess training despite muscle weakness due to hypokaliaemia. This situation resulted in multiple ruptures of muscle fibres (increasing serum values of CPK, AST, ALT, LDH, and elevation of blood levels of myoglobin and myoglobinuria). The increase in myoglobin renal excretion, with subsequent cylinder formation in the nephron or/and direct toxicity to tubular cells, led to acute renal failure.
 
here are my final conclusions:

the discussion in this article again sites androgens and specifically says stanozolol can be a factor. it sites 17-alfa-alkyl steroids and their derivatives as the major problems and as the major risk factors. no mention of trenbolone is specifically made, but it still seems to be a major risk factor as it is a very strong androgen. while the article is more informative than deductive, it does allow us to look into what they've done and see what the common elements are. at this point it seems to be androgens (deca, tren). while im sure the 17-aa steroids are extremely harmful and are known to cause these liver adenomas, i do feel as though these articles (primarily this one) in conjunction with what we know from the board concerning BaldNazi and 2BigFred's cycle history, that androgens are a huge factor in the development of these adenomas.

while the article is obviously anti-AAS, it does seem to be unbiased research-wise and should prove to be an accurate and useful source.

id like to know if BN and 2BigFred could expand on their use, primarily if they've used the compounds cited in this article

thanks guys... i hope this helps :)
 
I wish my body would recover but I think now that my tumor has been bleeding they have to take it out. I havent told the Dr about my aas use because I know if I do insurance will drop my butt!!! I would like too just too see if he says hey stop taking them and we will see if this thing goes away.Any ideas from anybody that i could say to the Dr without admitting to use of aas without coming out and saying it??? (stupid question I know)
 
I wish my body would recover but I think now that my tumor has been bleeding they have to take it out. I havent told the Dr about my aas use because I know if I do insurance will drop my butt!!! I would like too just too see if he says hey stop taking them and we will see if this thing goes away.Any ideas from anybody that i could say to the Dr without admitting to use of aas without coming out and saying it??? (stupid question I know)

sorry man...cant help you there :(

i think you'll have to get yours taken out regardless because of the fact that it is bleeding. i believe that the ones encountered in these articles were all caught before they began bleeding or anything, and even then they did not get much smaller, only slightly. if the doctor feels as though the operation is the best route, id go with it. im sure he knows the circumstances, whether he comes out and says it or not, based on your size and the rarity of liver adenomas.

good luck man
 
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I wish my body would recover but I think now that my tumor has been bleeding they have to take it out. I havent told the Dr about my aas use because I know if I do insurance will drop my butt!!! I would like too just too see if he says hey stop taking them and we will see if this thing goes away.Any ideas from anybody that i could say to the Dr without admitting to use of aas without coming out and saying it??? (stupid question I know)

ProHormones are very similar to aas, so I suggest you tell him you were using "legal" over the counter ph's. Insurance cant even try to touch that.
 

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