1.5g vs 2g protein per lbs bodyweight.

[buck]

Not force feeding oneself is always going to be more comfortable no doubt about it.
If we are talking about growing muscle as optimally fast as possible , i am not sure that comfort plays a really big factor.
At my highest calorie intake i really wasn't growing much at all as i had stalled out. Then i cut back over 1000 calories a day and started to gain again. I cut the calories from carbs and fats. And kept protein the same at 1.5gr/lb. I was still natural then.
I am sure i was just stressing my digestive system out to much where things were just passing through.
Once i started anabolics i upped things to about 1.75 with no real digestive issues. I tend to think anabolics allow for higher protein utilization/anabolism.

 

[qbkilla]

Not force feeding oneself is always going to be more comfortable no doubt about it.
If we are talking about growing muscle as optimally fast as possible , i am not sure that comfort plays a really big factor.
At my highest calorie intake i really wasn't growing much at all as i had stalled out. Then i cut back over 1000 calories a day and started to gain again. I cut the calories from carbs and fats. And kept protein the same at 1.5gr/lb. I was still natural then.
I am sure i was just stressing my digestive system out to much where things were just passing through.
Once i started anabolics i upped things to about 1.75 with no real digestive issues. I tend to think anabolics allow for higher protein utilization/anabolism.

I feel like your onto something. I'm starting to think protein is similar to the more the better, until you cant tolerate it. More protein = more gains...but it's like a lekker curve...if you increase the % protein at same calories so high 2 issues may happen

1. Your now having to pull carbs and fats to keep cals the same

2. Digestive issues...your experience exemplifies this

I almost wonder if many people are pushing the drugs, food, protein so far it's stressing the body and hindering growth. Could it be possible a dude would grow better at 4k than 5k because at 4k his digestion isn't all fucked up so his body can focus more on building muscle because his Digestive system is not being stressed? Then in turn...he's assimilating more total protein and nutrients from the 4k than the 5k because less inflammation, less constipation, etc

A few things I've noticed too. Say I wanted to eat hypothetically 2lb chicken breast. If I heat it in the microwave and eat it fast...imma feel like shit. If I cook it in broth nice and tender/juicy.. add some ketchup and salt, eat slow and sip water...ill feel fine, it'll slide on down

That's 200g protein about in both scenario think. Same exact food. But in the second scenario, is there a chance I digest and assimilate it better if I prepare and eat it correctly?

 

[hawkmoon]

I think it was one of Jewett's recent videos - I could be wrong - that talked about protein and enhanced vs. natural.

One of the key reasons bodybuilders need so much protein is to maintain a positive nitrogen balance.
However, when on AAS, this anabolic state is largely enforced through their direct effects on muscle protein synthesis and suppression of protein breakdown.
That said, getting enough protein remains necessary to supply the amino acid substrates required for tissue accretion, even if the threshold for achieving positive nitrogen balance is reduced.
So in theory we need less protein than when using gear, not more. In theory.

I think once you are in positive nitrogen balance and have enough aminos in the blood total calories becomes the growth limiter. Once enough building blocks are available the body will evaluate total energy requirements of growing larger, and it won't allow it if there aren't enough calories. In other words, if total calories are insufficient relative to growth demands, the capacity for further hypertrophy is constrained. Conversely, when energy intake is adequate or in surplus, the energetic cost of synthesizing and maintaining additional tissue is more likely to be met. In some case extra protein may be filling the role of extra energy more than anything else, once needs are met.

 

[claymore]

1.5g/lb is more than sufficient. Imagine there’s a lot of diminishing returns or very little benefit going up to 2g/lb, and digestion would be much more a factor/issue.

In offseason I think the lower ratio would be even better, you’d get way more benefit from moving the other calories to carbs.

Deep into a cut when you’re hungry, the higher protein might not be the worst idea for satiety and muscle preservation and reducing protein breakdown.

2g/lb just seems like overkill though. A 200lb dude probably doesn’t need 400g protein, or a 300lb dude probably doesn’t need 600g. Most likely just becomes an expensive form of gluconeogeneis at that point. Again 1.5g/lb is more than sufficient

This

 

[GroundFloor]

For me, I’ve always seen it as a sliding scale or a moving target. Hunger signaling has always played a role for me as well.

The higher the calories are, the lower protein becomes due to the goal maintaining hunger while in a surplus. The lower the calories, the higher protein becomes in reverse to lean out (and I would like to be less hungry).

I’ve noticed for those who put on body fat easily, their calories may never reach super high levels so their protein is usually a bit higher. However, over time as smaller increments in calories happen and they can slowly start eating more food, they can eventually begin to lower protein because their appetite signaling tells them to (given that they are not putting on a ton of fat. If they are still very hungry though, usually a good sign that they have good insulin sensitivity)

So protein grams for me have always been more of a reactive move to hunger while either gaining in a surplus or leaning out in a deficit.

I’m usually between 1.25-1.5/lb coming from direct sources.

 

[buck]

I feel like your onto something. I'm starting to think protein is similar to the more the better, until you cant tolerate it. More protein = more gains...but it's like a lekker curve...if you increase the % protein at same calories so high 2 issues may happen

1. Your now having to pull carbs and fats to keep cals the same

2. Digestive issues...your experience exemplifies this

I almost wonder if many people are pushing the drugs, food, protein so far it's stressing the body and hindering growth. Could it be possible a dude would grow better at 4k than 5k because at 4k his digestion isn't all fucked up so his body can focus more on building muscle because his Digestive system is not being stressed? Then in turn...he's assimilating more total protein and nutrients from the 4k than the 5k because less inflammation, less constipation, etc

A few things I've noticed too. Say I wanted to eat hypothetically 2lb chicken breast. If I heat it in the microwave and eat it fast...imma feel like shit. If I cook it in broth nice and tender/juicy.. add some ketchup and salt, eat slow and sip water...ill feel fine, it'll slide on down

That's 200g protein about in both scenario think. Same exact food. But in the second scenario, is there a chance I digest and assimilate it better if I prepare and eat it correctly?

My thinking i would prefer to get in a little to much protein and have the extra used for energy. As opposed to not getting as much as i could use for anabolism As from my understanding it is easier to convert protein to energy then to fat. So extra carbs would more likely to produce far with less anabolism.

As for eating protein i ate 300-350 grams a day year round for over 25 years. I would just pull it out of my pack at work and eat my meal i had 10 minutes to get it done.I would just chew and swallow.
I started in the 180 gram range then increased as my bodyweight went up and the grams per pound i was shooting for went up. I found eating 6000 calories to be more uncomfortable then the protein itself.

As i wrote above i stalled in the 7000 calorie range( John Parrillo diet) then lowered my calories about 1000 and started growing again

 

[luki7788]

I think it was one of Jewett's recent videos - I could be wrong - that talked about protein and enhanced vs. natural.

One of the key reasons bodybuilders need so much protein is to maintain a positive nitrogen balance.
However, when on AAS, this anabolic state is largely enforced through their direct effects on muscle protein synthesis and suppression of protein breakdown.
That said, getting enough protein remains necessary to supply the amino acid substrates required for tissue accretion, even if the threshold for achieving positive nitrogen balance is reduced.
So in theory we need less protein than when using gear, not more. In theory.

I think once you are in positive nitrogen balance and have enough aminos in the blood total calories becomes the growth limiter. Once enough building blocks are available the body will evaluate total energy requirements of growing larger, and it won't allow it if there aren't enough calories. In other words, if total calories are insufficient relative to growth demands, the capacity for further hypertrophy is constrained. Conversely, when energy intake is adequate or in surplus, the energetic cost of synthesizing and maintaining additional tissue is more likely to be met. In some case extra protein may be filling the role of extra energy more than anything else, once needs are met.

I agree 100% with this, and these are my conclusions after years of experience. I even talk about it in the YouTube video I posted here.

For years I was a real high-protein guy. I was eating around 450–500g of protein per day, counting only “pure” sources. So in reality it was more like 500–600g per day, and sometimes even more. Maybe 700g on some days. I’m not joking.
Yes, I got results, but the side effects were even worse, and it actually stopped my progress. My digestion was terrible, I was bloated all the time, so training was not how it should be. Doing legs or back with a bloated stomach was a nightmare. I couldn’t train with full intensity. My sleep was also bad. I had sleep apnea, so recovery was not good.

On top of that, I was putting a huge load on my kidneys and liver because of urea and because my body had to process massive amounts of amino acids and calories every day. Only after years I understood it.

I also used to think that since steroids and hormones increase protein synthesis, we can eat more protein and use more. But that’s not really true. In many cases it’s the opposite: we can eat less protein, because we use it more efficiently.
So for us, 50g of protein in a meal is not the same as 50g for a natural guy, because our nitrogen balance is high all the time. And once you already have enough protein, eating more does nothing except stress the body: more load on digestion, kidneys, liver, more bloating, worse sleep. And that can actually hurt growth and health.
And if your health is getting worse, you will not grow optimally. At some point, what drives growth is calories (especially carbs) and training quality, not extreme protein.

Today I prefer to eat a bit less protein rather than too much. Most people do the opposite, but this is what works for me and my clients.

 

[hawkmoon]

I agree 100% with this, and these are my conclusions after years of experience. I even talk about it in the YouTube video I posted here.

For years I was a real high-protein guy. I was eating around 450–500g of protein per day, counting only “pure” sources. So in reality it was more like 500–600g per day, and sometimes even more. Maybe 700g on some days. I’m not joking.
Yes, I got results, but the side effects were even worse, and it actually stopped my progress. My digestion was terrible, I was bloated all the time, so training was not how it should be. Doing legs or back with a bloated stomach was a nightmare. I couldn’t train with full intensity. My sleep was also bad. I had sleep apnea, so recovery was not good.

On top of that, I was putting a huge load on my kidneys and liver because of urea and because my body had to process massive amounts of amino acids and calories every day. Only after years I understood it.

I also used to think that since steroids and hormones increase protein synthesis, we can eat more protein and use more. But that’s not really true. In many cases it’s the opposite: we can eat less protein, because we use it more efficiently.
So for us, 50g of protein in a meal is not the same as 50g for a natural guy, because our nitrogen balance is high all the time. And once you already have enough protein, eating more does nothing except stress the body: more load on digestion, kidneys, liver, more bloating, worse sleep. And that can actually hurt growth and health.
And if your health is getting worse, you will not grow optimally. At some point, what drives growth is calories (especially carbs) and training quality, not extreme protein.

Today I prefer to eat a bit less protein rather than too much. Most people do the opposite, but this is what works for me and my clients.

You know from our talks elsewhere, but I greatly enjoy seeing how though you and I may have come from different starting points, and traveled different journeys, we often arrive at the same point.
I believe without thinking too much of myself this must lend some credibility to our views - though I also think we are also both always open to being corrected and learning more.

 

[Josefein421]

It does seem like all the people who advocate for lower protein intake fall into 1 of 2 categories...
1. New/Young kid science guy with little muscle
2. SHW lifting for a decade that has gained 100lbs

Kind of like training style. It seems so many SHW have gotten their on huge eating and huge weights. But once at that level change things to suit their needs. But it can come across as forgetting what got them there.

Nick Walker probably ate and definitely trained a lot different to get to his size now versus what he is doing to maintain/improve his look. He is at that level. But a 25yr old 190lb 2 year lifter's needs are vastly different. Something like DC training and 1.5g+ protein would benefit him a whole lot more than Nick. Broad example I know.

I guess growing up in bodybuilding when DC was in its hey day I always fall back on those principles. If protein is the bricks to build a house I would rather have too many than not enough.

 

[luki7788]

It does seem like all the people who advocate for lower protein intake fall into 1 of 2 categories...
1. New/Young kid science guy with little muscle
2. SHW lifting for a decade that has gained 100lbs

Kind of like training style. It seems so many SHW have gotten their on huge eating and huge weights. But once at that level change things to suit their needs. But it can come across as forgetting what got them there.

Nick Walker probably ate and definitely trained a lot different to get to his size now versus what he is doing to maintain/improve his look. He is at that level. But a 25yr old 190lb 2 year lifter's needs are vastly different. Something like DC training and 1.5g+ protein would benefit him a whole lot more than Nick. Broad example I know.

I guess growing up in bodybuilding when DC was in its hey day I always fall back on those principles. If protein is the bricks to build a house I would rather have too many than not enough.

I think this is a perfect suggestion and I agree with it 100% - at some point the rules change because the goals are different.

 

[buck]

When looking at any area of life i look at what the most successful did in their early years to build the base they have and follow that approach as it is fairly proven.
How i trained to grow 2-3 pounds of muscle a year in my later years is not what i did when i was packing it on 10's of pounds in my younger years. I tend to advice people that want to grow to do more what i did in my early years as opposed to my later years.

 

[P30LEM]

It does seem like all the people who advocate for lower protein intake fall into 1 of 2 categories...
1. New/Young kid science guy with little muscle
2. SHW lifting for a decade that has gained 100lbs

Do you think #2 realizes that they didn't need that much the whole time, that the goals are different like Luki mentioned, or probably a mix of both?

 

[Klax]

Listening to a lot of Justin Harris lately. He was stating (I paraphrase) that natty lifters can only use a portion the protein they consume for MPS (something like 40-50%) whereas enhanced lifters can utilize upwards of 90%, so if anything, enhanced lifters can get away with consuming much less.

All that said, he still says that the max amount of protein turnover in MPS is roughly 25g/day. And as enhanced lifters, if we are able to partition our protein in a superior way, perhaps the 1g/lb of LBM is actually more than fine. Ex: If a someone with 200lb LBM consumes 200g protein per day, let's assume 100g of it goes to turnover. There's still 100g of protein that can go toward MPS, and only 25g of that can actually be used for that purpose. So are we overfilling the bucket and resulting in expensive gluconeogenesis?

Regardless, I still carry some anxiety about it not being enough.

 

[Josefein421]

Do you think #2 realizes that they didn't need that much the whole time, that the goals are different like Luki mentioned, or probably a mix of both?

I dont know if #2 does or doesnt need that much. Kinda funny guys will load up 3g of gear and not think it is overboard but want to use the minimum amount of the macro nutrient needed to grow muscle. I don't know what the exact answer is. I believe in science but also believe in anecdotal evidence. Like I said I came up when Dante was still training people and I saw the guys explode. Look back at JP's old logs how he ate. Dr Scott was taking in 1000cal weight gainer type shakes intra workout back then. You've seen the pictures of Jay with his puffy face shoveling food in.

I dont think any of them were concerned about the minimum amount of protein needed. Why shoot a gun whenI can drop a bomb....

Listening to a lot of Justin Harris lately. He was stating (I paraphrase) that natty lifters can only use a portion the protein they consume for MPS (something like 40-50%) whereas enhanced lifters can utilize upwards of 90%, so if anything, enhanced lifters can get away with consuming much less.

All that said, he still says that the max amount of protein turnover in MPS is roughly 25g/day. And as enhanced lifters, if we are able to partition our protein in a superior way, perhaps the 1g/lb of LBM is actually more than fine. Ex: If a someone with 200lb LBM consumes 200g protein per day, let's assume 100g of it goes to turnover. There's still 100g of protein that can go toward MPS, and only 25g of that can actually be used for that purpose. So are we overfilling the bucket and resulting in expensive gluconeogenesis?

Regardless, I still carry some anxiety about it not being enough.

I heard him say that directly to me. However I also know how much protein he had me take in at that time and it wasnt the minimum amount...

 

[qbkilla]

Has anyone read anything on a minimum amount of protein per dose to spike mps? I feel like I've heard it mentioned as 30g or so. So say i am in a hurry and grab a bar that has 22g...would this not meet the threshold? If not, what happens? Or will any protein ingested say even 5g in a yogurt contribute to growth?

 

[Sectør]

Has anyone read anything on a minimum amount of protein per dose to spike mps? I feel like I've heard it mentioned as 30g or so. So say i am in a hurry and grab a bar that has 22g...would this not meet the threshold? If not, what happens? Or will any protein ingested say even 5g in a yogurt contribute to growth?

Might be overthinking it a little too much.

Any protein is better than no protein. It’s not like you eat 22g protein and your body says “nope”, but somehow if you hit 30 it magically turns on.

I’m sure any amount would go to good use, but that the higher the amount the better

That said each of my meals usually are atleast 50g protein minimum. Feel like it’s a super easy threshold to hit.

 

[qbkilla]

Might be overthinking it a little too much.

Any protein is better than no protein. It’s not like you eat 22g protein and your body says “nope”, but somehow if you hit 30 it magically turns on.

I’m sure any amount would go to good use, but that the higher the amount the better

That said each of my meals usually are atleast 50g protein minimum. Feel like it’s a super easy threshold to hit.

True. A quick Google search said different things. 3g of leuicine or about 30-35g to trigger mTOR. I began wondering because of we are using eaa pre-workout, is there a chance if we don't use enough we don't spike mTOR? Meaning we still get some of the benefit but not all. Obviously we could use a scoop of whey pre vs eaas...but damn i love eaas instead because it feels so light and easy on the stomach with 0 bloating...hate bloating while im lifting

 

[hawkmoon]

Might be overthinking it a little too much.

Any protein is better than no protein. It’s not like you eat 22g protein and your body says “nope”, but somehow if you hit 30 it magically turns on.

I’m sure any amount would go to good use, but that the higher the amount the better

That said each of my meals usually are atleast 50g protein minimum. Feel like it’s a super easy threshold to hit.

50g is where I aim as well. Four core meals with 40-70g is the center of my day's nutrition.

 

[buck]

The amount of workload, intencity, volume, rest a person can handle/need differs and only is established by doing.

True. A quick Google search said different things. 3g of leuicine or about 30-35g to trigger mTOR. I began wondering because of we are using eaa pre-workout, is there a chance if we don't use enough we don't spike mTOR? Meaning we still get some of the benefit but not all. Obviously we could use a scoop of whey pre vs eaas...but damn i love eaas instead because it feels so light and easy on the stomach with 0 bloating...hate bloating while im lifting

Stimulating the mTOR pathway and supplying all the building blocks it can possible use at any one time are different numbers i am betting. Just taking in EAA is not enough to supply all the amino acids. Your body still needs enough nitrogen to build all those other aminos.

A researcher i was watching yesterday spoke of 30ish gr of high quality protein being needed for muscle synthesis for most with 60 gr. being towards the top end per meal.

But for older people more then 30 will be needed. These days i take in at least 200gr. But shoot for more around 240. In 4 meals. I weight in the low 190's

I never asked anyone how many sets or how often to workout, rest, what intensity level i could take poundage i should lift etc. So asking what is the optimal level of protein,carbs or fats for me never seemed like a thing to do. I would manipulate one thing at a time to see how it went. In general on the same carbs and fats i grew better with more protein. There may be a better way to go but i only have my history and those i have worked with, but most of them were more average lifters and more protein worked for them within reason.
I find it entertaining when people want to know the best outcome before they start the journey. For me it is just a life long experiment.

 

[nothuman]

This has been studied pretty extensively in recent years. Even 1 g per pound of body weight is more than enough for muscle gain. I get more than this by accident not because I’m trying to.

Bodybuilders will argue that they need more on gear, but that’s really just a guess, and as someone pointed out, maybe even need less (also a guess).