1.5g vs 2g protein per lbs bodyweight.

[buck]

How much protein it takes to make gains and how much it takes to make optimal gains would seen to be 2 different questions. After over a decade of training naturally with little gains the last few years. I started on anabolics and on the same diet, training and weights I started growing again. Anabolics make everything easier in bodybuilding. I probably could have ate less protein and even lifted lighter and still made gains I would bet. But I can't say for sure but being in a drug induced anabolic environment makes things easier. And when I increased protein intake on gear the gains came quicker again.The only way to know ones ceiling is to try and find out.

 

[alfresco]

How much protein it takes to make gains and how much it takes to make optimal gains would seen to be 2 different questions. After over a decade of training naturally with little gains the last few years. I started on anabolics and on the same diet, training and weights I started growing again. Anabolics make everything easier in bodybuilding. I probably could have ate less protein and even lifted lighter and still made gains I would bet. But I can't say for sure but being in a drug induced anabolic environment makes things easier. And when I increased protein intake on gear the gains came quicker again.The only way to know ones ceiling is to try and find out.

Similarly for me..

When I started on an anabolic at 50, I kind of approached it as an experiment, to see how effective they were.

My diet was not particularly high protein. I’m sure it was probably at the very low end. (I don’t have my training trials with me now.) I did not change a thing. Same training routine, same diet same frequency everything identical that it was before I introduced a PED. And I grew like a friggin weed. It was almost effortless . . . the weights went up with greater frequency and ease, the pumps were absolutely outrageous as was the DOMS. In fact, my legs in particular became so sore before I even left the gym.

Could my gains have been greater than I increased my protein, I have no clue. I was happy with the gains I was getting and did not see the reason to change anything . . . if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And I didn’t take any supplements of any kind either. I think I took a multivitamin and that’s the only when I thought about it.

So I knew what was responsible for what. And this was after 30 years of training, surpassing my best when I was younger and smaller in some regards did the surge in growth occur. So I wasn’t, in most cases, rebuilding previously existing muscle. I eventually rolled back the dosages because the red flags were starting to rise. Now I’m on flat out on TRT I’ve been able to hold onto watch I think a significant amount of muscle but there’s no denying that as you get older regardless of what you are doing, you are going to lose muscle mass, I don’t care how you eat, what you eat, how you lift / train what you take is an unavoidable fact of life.

 

[Josefein421]

I am surprised so many here are in favor of lower protein... the mass monsters aside. This is ProMuscle... a community that is a part of a larger community (bodybuilding) that thrives in excess. More gear, more supps, more muscle, more milligrams, more sets, more weight, etc. Now it seems protein and training volume are being looked at as "What is the littlest amount I need to do the job?". And I just find that funny. When the goal is extreme shouldn't the process be extreme?

Again, if you want to be a fitness model in a magazine, look good on the beach/naked, are refining the large amount of muscle you already have, youre downsizing because of age... all these situation lower protein, calories, gear, etc all make sense. But I saw Lee Priest (who I absolutely love and is even more hilarious in person) say something to the point of bodybuilding is now the only sport where people are trying to do the least amount of work to get results. Kobe Bryant didnt try to find the minimum amount of jump shots to practice, I bet Ohtani isnt trying to figure out the least amount of batting practice he needs to hit bombs or Tom Brady the least amount of film time to win play off games. You get the point. Not apples to apples but trying to illustrate my point that in the pursuit of excess or extreme I believe excess or extreme must be done.

 

[Alzadosghost]

The more the better. I know we use most of it no matter how much you intake. The biggest and strongest Iv ever been I was taking in at least 500grams a day. Food and shakes. But it’s a double edged sword. High protein diets are hard on the kidneys. Really hard on them. And over time it will burn them out. Another thing about bodybuilding that can kill you. It’s not only the drugs and high blood pressure that can kill you or cause organ failure.

 

[qbkilla]

I am surprised so many here are in favor of lower protein... the mass monsters aside. This is ProMuscle... a community that is a part of a larger community (bodybuilding) that thrives in excess. More gear, more supps, more muscle, more milligrams, more sets, more weight, etc. Now it seems protein and training volume are being looked at as "What is the littlest amount I need to do the job?". And I just find that funny. When the goal is extreme shouldn't the process be extreme?

Again, if you want to be a fitness model in a magazine, look good on the beach/naked, are refining the large amount of muscle you already have, youre downsizing because of age... all these situation lower protein, calories, gear, etc all make sense. But I saw Lee Priest (who I absolutely love and is even more hilarious in person) say something to the point of bodybuilding is now the only sport where people are trying to do the least amount of work to get results. Kobe Bryant didnt try to find the minimum amount of jump shots to practice, I bet Ohtani isnt trying to figure out the least amount of batting practice he needs to hit bombs or Tom Brady the least amount of film time to win play off games. You get the point. Not apples to apples but trying to illustrate my point that in the pursuit of excess or extreme I believe excess or extreme must be done.

I kinda noticed this as well and was surprised...I think part of it is that we have an older average age and many are trying to maintain. We also have always had threads about digestion, gut health, distrnsion so that may influence people more. What has shocked me more is how many guys here embrace the studies, the "science " mindset, and not training to failure lol

Most people here i assume we're around when HIT and DC training were popular so the embracing non-failure training is very surprising.

 

[Klax]

Interesting clip of Milos stating he ate 500g+ protein daily. Similar carbs. Look, I really do try to lead with a science mindset... But real-world application doesn't lie. Could Milos have built his body the same way eating 200g protein and 700-800g carbs? Possibly. But 500g of each is what he says he did. And high protein has always worked.

I recently increased protein. I understand all the science behind maximizing MPS and limits of protein turnover, but I honestly just don't feel like experimenting and leaving muscle on the table by "justifying" lower protein intake. Do I need all this protein? Maybe not. But in my mid-30's I don't want to waste time running the risk of being wrong.

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[qbkilla]

Interesting clip of Milos stating he ate 500g+ protein daily. Similar carbs. Look, I really do try to lead with a science mindset... But real-world application doesn't lie. Could Milos have built his body the same way eating 200g protein and 700-800g carbs? Possibly. But 500g of each is what he says he did. And high protein has always worked.

I recently increased protein. I understand all the science behind maximizing MPS and limits of protein turnover, but I honestly just don't feel like experimenting and leaving muscle on the table by "justifying" lower protein intake. Do I need all this protein? Maybe not. But in my mid-30's I don't want to waste time running the risk of being wrong.

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I can relate to "trying to follow science " as I tried this for a while and it left me spinning my wheels. My advice, we don't need "science " in bodybuilding...basic common sense and bro science aka doing things guys have done to get big and lean...that we know works...are sufficient to get 99% of the gains we could ever milk out of our genetics.

 

[RSMainz]

I'm just speaking out of my ass so don't get up me. But my personal opinion is if you want to grow the most muscle possible, then yes, higher protein intake for sure. Is it the best look? Not really. Optimal for digestion? Don't think so. Best for keeping the waist tight? Definitely not. Once you started reaching the 260s+ or what ever size your goal is, then switching some of that protein for carbs to refine the physique, lower the bloating and inflammation and really vollumise the muscle. But for slapping on actual myofibrils then I think 1.5g/lb is definitely better than 1g/lb. Is 2g/lb even better, tough to say really but to me it makes sense if you are trying to grow tissue to keep the one micronutrient that is actually responsible as high as possible, to the point where it doesn't impact digestion significantly and doesn't stop you from taking in adequate carbs to optimise your training performance

 

[lawzawz]

Interesting clip of Milos stating he ate 500g+ protein daily. Similar carbs. Look, I really do try to lead with a science mindset... But real-world application doesn't lie. Could Milos have built his body the same way eating 200g protein and 700-800g carbs? Possibly. But 500g of each is what he says he did. And high protein has always worked.

I recently increased protein. I understand all the science behind maximizing MPS and limits of protein turnover, but I honestly just don't feel like experimenting and leaving muscle on the table by "justifying" lower protein intake. Do I need all this protein? Maybe not. But in my mid-30's I don't want to waste time running the risk of being wrong.

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not to shit on milos but has he not been fundamentally full of shit or at least tells half truths since forever? i would take majority of what those era say wtih a grain of salt, alot of the newer larger pros and the really large fellas here al seem to be leaning towards lower protein (still high by normal human standard) and focusing on body running better, optimising sleep digestion etc helping you grow

 

[megroo]

All things aside, we’re forgetting that no matter if you’re a 200lb bodybuilder or a 300lb bodybuilder, you still have the same size digestive system.

You might argue the larger guy had a more impaired digestive system with all that extra weight he’s carrying around.

So when a 300lb guy says he feels better dropping his protein to 1g/lb…
And a 200lb guy says he feels better on 1.5g/lb… it’s kind of the same thing.

Perhaps there’s just a sweet spot the human digestive system can handle.

G/lb is all relative unless we’re comparing identical body weights

Just my thoughts …

 

[qbkilla]

Up the Protein Intake for Enhanced Bodybuilders!

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Came across this. Seems like most are embracing lower protein...Wonder how this will affect the supplement industry. I'm doing 200 vs 300..no room for skaes...im having trouble keeping it this low as I'm just used to large servings of meat and putting whey in my yogurt.

 

[anarchocapitalist]

I'm 5'6" 200lbs and I eat 185-200g per day depending on how full I feel. Eating more protein did not produce more growth. I'm not sure how many milligrams of muscle you put on in a day but it can't be much.

 

[buck]

While maintaining muscle does not require a lot. Wouldn't adding in 10 or 20 grams more protein above maintenance a day be more then enough to supply all the extra nitrogen that is needed for growth. The math seems to work out.

 

[P30LEM]

While maintaining muscle does not require a lot. Wouldn't adding in 10 or 20 grams more protein above maintenance a day be more then enough to supply all the extra nitrogen that is needed for growth. The math seems to work out. And I would think if it only takes 1gr/lb to grow the optimal amount of muscle then the amounts of carbs and fats would likley be minimal to support that growth. So an extra 100 calories a day may all that is needed as well to fuel that tiny bit of daily growth. Yet i don't know of any one that does it that way.

It becomes completely impractical to track it at that point is probably why...food labels are allowed to vary in the US by 20% every chicken, cow, etc is going to have varying levels of fat and protein, the food labels are just estimates of the approximate fat percentage. When they make 96/4 beef, they're not weighing out the exact amount of muscle tissue and fat. Even if you're weighing everything, all you are doing is basing it off the average for that food. It's close, but not accurate enough that we can realistically account for 10g of protein or 100 calories.

 

[buck]

It becomes completely impractical to track it at that point is probably why...food labels are allowed to vary in the US by 20% every chicken, cow, etc is going to have varying levels of fat and protein, the food labels are just estimates of the approximate fat percentage. When they make 96/4 beef, they're not weighing out the exact amount of muscle tissue and fat. Even if you're weighing everything, all you are doing is basing it off the average for that food. It's close, but not accurate enough that we can realistically account for 10g of protein or 100 calories.

True but the same is done for most all the studies on muscle grow. So are you saying those studies are invalid?

 

[P30LEM]

True but the same is done for most all the studies on muscle grow. So are you saying those studies are invalid?

What double blind controlled studies are available where they were able to determine daily maintenance protein and calorie requirements for bodybuilders, feed them exactly 10g of protein over a meaningful period of time, and prove that there was no benefit to going any higher? It's important to think of the context and limitations of studies, what they actually control for, and not to extrapolate them to different populations.

I think that trying to figure out your exact ever shifting daily maintenance amount of protein and somehow nail exactly 10g over that is literally impossible.

As a thought experiment, sure, but it's not practical. And why try to put so much effort into just getting by with the bare minimum of anything?

 

[buck]

What double blind controlled studies are available where they were able to determine daily maintenance protein and calorie requirements for bodybuilders, feed them exactly 10g of protein over a meaningful period of time, and prove that there was no benefit to going any higher? It's important to think of the context and limitations of studies, what they actually control for, and not to extrapolate them to different populations.

I think that trying to figure out your exact ever shifting daily maintenance amount of protein and somehow nail exactly 10g over that is literally impossible.

As a thought experiment, sure, but it's not practical. And why try to put so much effort into just getting by with the bare minimum of anything?

I don't know of any double blind controlled studies that used varying amounts of protein for optimal muscle growth. But they would be interesting to see.
Shifting amounts of food quality,amounts, activity would likely be averaged out over time. So 9 grams one day would be 11 grams another day for example. I assume that is how most studies are done.
My only study i did was on me.

 

[P30LEM]

I don't know of any double blind controlled studies that used varying amounts of protein for optimal muscle growth. But they would be interesting to see.
Shifting amounts of food quality,amounts, activity would likely be averaged out over time. So 9 grams one day would be 11 grams another day for example. I assume that is how most studies are done.
My only study i did was on me.

It would be interesting for sure. I know what you mean in your original post though, it definitely takes way less to maintain muscle than people probably think.

 

[buck]

It would be interesting for sure. I know what you mean in your original post though, it definitely takes way less to maintain muscle than people probably think.

Also depends on age. At my age just maintaining muscle(actually losing very slowly) studies show takes about 1gr/lb for the average old gym guy.
I tend to think there is likley an average optimal amount but no really good data to support those findings. Only peoples opinions from their own experience with themselves and others they know. But then people some times lie or remember things differently. Bt it is an entertaining conversation.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

Sorry to bring up protein question, but has anyone noticed a difference in growth when using 2g of protein compared to 1.5g or is it just a waste of calories that could be allocated to carbs, worsening digestion etc.

thanks all.

Heres how I see it: protein isn’t only the raw material for muscle, it also has specific intra cellular signalling such as signalling Mtor. We know coaches like Chad Nikkols promote 2-2.5g per lb with great success.

That being said, I don’t find it won’t the discomfort and digestion issues to go that high. I stick to around 1.5g per lb most days sometimes down to 1g/lb 1-2 days a week when my carbs get over 1000g.

I’m counting direct protein sources only though.