1.5g vs 2g protein per lbs bodyweight.

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

Not surprised you got leaner you reduced food a ton!

But agree with you otherwise though. Force feeding constantly is like Hunter Labrada and his whey/rice krispy diet… sign of a big problem. But being full, bloated, uncomfortable… lethargic from high androgens or gh… is just part of forcing extreme growth. And I say that as someone who has had trouble tolerating those feelings and thus short changed my progress a lot for a very long time.

I guess I’m asking the question… are guys growing bc of low protein or in spite of it? Would Dave, Dusty, etc be the size they are with 1g/lb their whole career? I guess we will definitively never know. But in the end whatever works for someone is all that matters. No one knows or cares how many grams of protein you eat onstage right?

What surprised me is that my gym performance increased at a greater rate once I reduced food and I think my muscle grow to did as well. My guess is because my food was being partitioned more appropriately and I was able to train harder because of this and better digestion/empty stomach at training times

 

[Flocci]

I am surprised so many here are in favor of lower protein... the mass monsters aside. This is ProMuscle... a community that is a part of a larger community (bodybuilding) that thrives in excess. More gear, more supps, more muscle, more milligrams, more sets, more weight, etc. Now it seems protein and training volume are being looked at as "What is the littlest amount I need to do the job?". And I just find that funny. When the goal is extreme shouldn't the process be extreme?

I think a lot of us have embraced the extremes and pushed and pushed and found that it isnt necessary and it becomes counterproductive at a certain point and you get better results doing a bit more moderate approach, but most would probably still call it extreme. We also wouldnt know where our limits, or how hard, how much we can tolerate or need if we didnt go to those extremes, so theres value in pushing and pushing too. I got a bit ranty here.. the point is, we have pushed to the extreme and seen that its not the answer and it ended up being counterproductive at a certain point.

 

[nothuman]

I highly doubt anyone here went from 1g of protein to 2g of protein per pound and started magically growing while keeping gear and training the same.

if you’re quick to think otherwise, then it’s probably because your total calories were higher.

 

[d4ve]

I highly doubt anyone here went from 1g of protein to 2g of protein per pound and started magically growing while keeping gear and training the same.

if you’re quick to think otherwise, then it’s probably because your total calories were higher.

This too. It's funny how infrequently participants in this debate actually specify whether or not they've controlled for calories.

"Well I upped my protein from 5 oz to 8 oz per meal and starting growing, and when I upped it to 10 oz, I gained even more weight!" Well no shit, eating more tends to do that

It's far more rare to hear someone say, "I traded x carbs for y additional protein and really noticed better growth," or "My body comp and strength improved at the same weight when I traded a lot of carbs for protein," etc.

And again, I think this is why we see plenty of younger bodybuilders right now, staying lean and growing very well eating less protein and carb amounts that used to be seen as "way too high to stay lean."

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

As I wrote, I'm talking about what I can see on YouTube. I never claim to know the truth from real world. I can only judge based on what I can see, but I don't think that what they do in these videos is "lazy and weak training."

I think a lot of guys get resentful and like to criticize other people unduly.

I think a lot of us have embraced the extremes and pushed and pushed and found that it isnt necessary and it becomes counterproductive at a certain point and you get better results doing a bit more moderate approach, but most would probably still call it extreme. We also wouldnt know where our limits, or how hard, how much we can tolerate or need if we didnt go to those extremes, so theres value in pushing and pushing too. I got a bit ranty here.. the point is, we have pushed to the extreme and seen that it’s not the answer and it ended up being counterproductive at a certain point.

I see it both ways. Protein isn’t just the building block for muscle, but it is a biochemical signalling mechanism for Mtor, so more is better to a larger extent than many believe.

However, too much protein can be very negative on digestion. Disrupting digestion is the worst thing we can do, and once we compromise how well we are utilizing our food, we are walking down a losing path.

This is how I like to do it - about 1.5g protein per lb from direct sources, so for me at 210 right now on most days it’s 300g a day from meat, Greek yogurt, and protein powder, so not counting the 40-70g from carb sources.

Then on my high carb days (1-2 weekly for diet phases and 2-3 weekly for mass phases) i will reduce protein to 1g per lb from direct sources.

I got this method from Justin Hariss and Paul Barnett and it seems to work perfectly.

 

[Josefein421]

This too. It's funny how infrequently participants in this debate actually specify whether or not they've controlled for calories.

"Well I upped my protein from 5 oz to 8 oz per meal and starting growing, and when I upped it to 10 oz, I gained even more weight!" Well no shit, eating more tends to do that

It's far more rare to hear someone say, "I traded x carbs for y additional protein and really noticed better growth," or "My body comp and strength improved at the same weight when I traded a lot of carbs for protein," etc.

And again, I think this is why we see plenty of younger bodybuilders right now, staying lean and growing very well eating less protein and carb amounts that used to be seen as "way too high to stay lean."

After all my posts in here to the contrary this one made me go "hmmmmm..."...

Very interesting point and when you put it that way that might very well be the answer. I for one did NOT trade carbs for protein and just increased protein and am betting that is what most people have done. So your scenario would be 100% make sense and provide an argument for both camps.

Thanks @d4ve

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

After all my posts in here to the contrary this one made me go "hmmmmm..."...

Very interesting point and when you put it that way that might very well be the answer. I for one did NOT trade carbs for protein and just increased protein and am betting that is what most people have done. So your scenario would be 100% make sense and provide an argument for both camps.

Thanks @d4ve

Good point

 

[P30LEM]

After all my posts in here to the contrary this one made me go "hmmmmm..."...

Very interesting point and when you put it that way that might very well be the answer. I for one did NOT trade carbs for protein and just increased protein and am betting that is what most people have done. So your scenario would be 100% make sense and provide an argument for both camps.

Thanks @d4ve

Wait what's going on here? A civil discussion where people refine their views based on the ideas and information shared? I'm sorry I thought this was an internet forum.

 

[luki7788]

I think a lot of guys get resentful and like to criticize other people unduly.


I see it both ways. Protein isn’t just the building block for muscle, but it is a biochemical signalling mechanism for Mtor, so more is better to a larger extent than many believe.

However, too much protein can be very negative on digestion. Disrupting digestion is the worst thing we can do, and once we compromise how well we are utilizing our food, we are walking down a losing path.

This is how I like to do it - about 1.5g protein per lb from direct sources, so for me at 210 right now on most days it’s 300g a day from meat, Greek yogurt, and protein powder, so not counting the 40-70g from carb sources.

Then on my high carb days (1-2 weekly for diet phases and 2-3 weekly for mass phases) i will reduce protein to 1g per lb from direct sources.

I got this method from Justin Hariss and Paul Barnett and it seems to work perfectly.

I disagree – 1g/lbs is what will absolutely maximize MPS, and you won't go beyond that point – it's like trying to break your head through the ceiling.

No matter how many HGH insulin AAS you take, the rate of synthesis or tissue regeneration has its own limit, and you can't exceed it by simply taking more – it's like trying to pour 500ml into a 250ml glass, and all the rest will spill out, making your table dirty and you'll have to clean it up (side effects).

 

[Josefein421]

Wait what's going on here? A civil discussion where people refine their views based on the ideas and information shared? I'm sorry I thought this was an internet forum.

I am gonna try it.

Even going 1.25 down from 1.5 puts me at 280 (I weighed 223.1 this morning) and replacing with carbs im now 660 on training days lol. I have never been that high and am curious how it is eating 50g scale weight less protein and having >100g carbs most meals.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

I disagree – 1g/lbs is what will absolutely maximize MPS, and you won't go beyond that point – it's like trying to break your head through the ceiling.

No matter how many HGH insulin AAS you take, the rate of synthesis or tissue regeneration has its own limit, and you can't exceed it by simply taking more – it's like trying to pour 500ml into a 250ml glass, and all the rest will spill out, making your table dirty and you'll have to clean it up (side effects).

Respectfully, I think you are looking at a smaller picture than I intended with my comment.

I agree that 1g per lb maximizes *proximal* MPS.

I was referring to the other benefits that eating greater amounts than 1g/lb per day of protein will have through Mtor has aside from that day’s MPS.

Mtor actually coordinates multiple anabolic and metabolic processes,not just proximal MPS.

More Mtor means more ribosome biogenesis, which increases your capacity for MPS long term rather than your rate of MPS today.

Mtor also stimulates glycolysis and nutrient uptake, helping cells process glucose, aminos, and lipids as well. Nutrient signalling effects via Mtor also affect insulin sensitivity.

Mtor also indirectly supports mitochondrial activity and enhances the cell’s energy capacity.

These effects are not capped at the same rate that proximal MPS is capped at.

So in short, yes, I agree that proximal MPS is maximized at 1g per day, but greater amounts can lay the groundwork for greater MPS capacity long term along with a host of other indirect anabolic benefits.

Of course, proximal MPS is the most important factor by far, but those high protein coaches were on to something. That’s why I decided to research this, I couldn’t fathom how so many respected coaches could all be wrong. It was actually a lesser known coach named Kolton (coach kolton on ig) who put me onto the trail of these benefits from Mtor.

Edit: I also forgot to add that greater Mtor can enhance hypertrophy through satellite cell activation as another beneficial pathway , I thought I was forgetting something lol

 

[luki7788]

Respectfully, I think you are looking at a smaller picture than I intended with my comment.

I agree that 1g per lb maximizes *proximal* MPS.

I was referring to the other benefits that eating greater amounts than 1g/lb per day of protein will have through Mtor has aside from that day’s MPS.

Mtor actually coordinates multiple anabolic and metabolic processes,not just proximal MPS.

More Mtor means more ribosome biogenesis, which increases your capacity for MPS long term rather than your rate of MPS today.

Mtor also stimulates glycolysis and nutrient uptake, helping cells process glucose, aminos, and lipids as well. Nutrient signalling effects via Mtor also affect insulin sensitivity.

Mtor also indirectly supports mitochondrial activity and enhances the cell’s energy capacity.

These effects are not capped at the same rate that proximal MPS is capped at.

So in short, yes, I agree that proximal MPS is maximized at 1g per day, but greater amounts can lay the groundwork for greater MPS capacity long term along with a host of other indirect anabolic benefits.

Of course, proximal MPS is the most important factor by far, but those high protein coaches were on to something. That’s why I decided to research this, I couldn’t fathom how so many respected coaches could all be wrong. It was actually a lesser known coach named Kolton (coach kolton on ig) who put me onto the trail of these benefits from Mtor.

Edit: I also forgot to add that greater Mtor can enhance hypertrophy through satellite cell activation as another beneficial pathway , I thought I was forgetting something lol

I see you're a guy who turns a simple bodybuilding into quantum physics, lol.
Bro, no offense, but you say you'd like to weigh 200 lbs with a relatively low body fat percentage, and you're making it complicated if you were 180cm and 300 lbs with a 6% body fat percentage and looking for a way to add a little more muscle...

I'll say it again - I've been there, done that, and I'm only sharing my findings, which didn't give me anything but negatives. I ate 450-600g of protein for over a decade, lol.

 

[Flocci]

Respectfully, I think you are looking at a smaller picture than I intended with my comment.

I agree that 1g per lb maximizes *proximal* MPS.

I was referring to the other benefits that eating greater amounts than 1g/lb per day of protein will have through Mtor has aside from that day’s MPS.

Mtor actually coordinates multiple anabolic and metabolic processes,not just proximal MPS.

More Mtor means more ribosome biogenesis, which increases your capacity for MPS long term rather than your rate of MPS today.

Mtor also stimulates glycolysis and nutrient uptake, helping cells process glucose, aminos, and lipids as well. Nutrient signalling effects via Mtor also affect insulin sensitivity.

Mtor also indirectly supports mitochondrial activity and enhances the cell’s energy capacity.

These effects are not capped at the same rate that proximal MPS is capped at.

So in short, yes, I agree that proximal MPS is maximized at 1g per day, but greater amounts can lay the groundwork for greater MPS capacity long term along with a host of other indirect anabolic benefits.

Of course, proximal MPS is the most important factor by far, but those high protein coaches were on to something. That’s why I decided to research this, I couldn’t fathom how so many respected coaches could all be wrong. It was actually a lesser known coach named Kolton (coach kolton on ig) who put me onto the trail of these benefits from Mtor.

Edit: I also forgot to add that greater Mtor can enhance hypertrophy through satellite cell activation as another beneficial pathway , I thought I was forgetting something lol

what is this term "proximal" muscle protein synthesis you are refering to?

I know we have different forms of MPS like mitochondrial, myofibrillar, sarcoplasmoic and stromal, like tendons and stuff but what does proximal refer to?

 

[gulfcoast]

I said that because I have never seen footage of Flex, Dexter, Phil, etc train anywhere like Dusty, Dr Scott, JP, Justin Harris, Ronnie, Dorian, Branch… perhaps I’m dating myself as all those guys are retired now but that was they era I grew up watching and what I default to as the standard.

I think it’s pretty obvious Phil, Dexter, Flex, Kevin, Dillet, etc were genetic freaks even amongst freaks and none are know for their brutal training. Dillet was enormous and said to be as lazy as can be.

During his Olympia years I personally trained a few times in Jax where Dexter did, also saw him once at the local Cracker Barrel.
I do not remember what time of year it was so no idea whether he was bulking, dieting or something in between. I would agree it wasn't brutal training but it damn sure wasn't lazy either. I do remember he was incredible massive in person and in amazing shape.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

what is this term "proximal" muscle protein synthesis you are refering to?

I know we have different forms of MPS like mitochondrial, myofibrillar, sarcoplasmoic and stromal, like tendons and stuff but what does proximal refer to?

proximal refers to short term. So I’m saying that 1g protein per lb does maximize MPS TODAY, as in “in the short term” or “proximally”.

However, by increasing ribosomal biogenesis through higher amounts of protein we increase our ability to have greater rates of MPS LATER, as in, weeks or months in the future.

Put simply, eating larger amounts of protein than it takes to maximally stimulate MPS can increase the potential for greater MPS in the future through ribosomal biogenesis (creating new ribosomes)

 

[luki7788]

proximal refers to short term. So I’m saying that 1g protein per lb does maximize MPS TODAY, as in “in the short term” or “proximally”.

However, by increasing ribosomal biogenesis through higher amounts of protein we increase our ability to have greater rates of MPS LATER, as in, weeks or months in the future.

Put simply, eating larger amounts of protein than it takes to maximally stimulate MPS can increase the potential for greater MPS in the future through ribosomal biogenesis (creating new ribosomes)

lol bro with all due respect but you definitely think too much

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

lol bro with all due respect but you definitely think too much

Probably why I think my potential lies more in one day becoming a great coach rather than a great bodybuilder, which makes me kind of sad and is definitely humbling, but still awesome.

I just love nerding out on anything and everything bodybuilding lol

 

[TEHL]

I stuck with 1 g per lb since my appetite has never been great, and honestly it worked just fine. I tried pushing it to 2 g per lb once and it was brutal — eating that much meat was no joke.

 

[ChickenRiceRepeat]

I stuck with 1 g per lb since my appetite has never been great, and honestly it worked just fine. I tried pushing it to 2 g per lb once and it was brutal — eating that much meat was no joke.

Yeah I get that. I’m not necessarily even advocating that higher protein like 1.5-2g per lb is any better than 1g per lb, I stick around 1.5.

I was just pointing out that there is both anecdotal and science based application of doing so. My original post was about how I can see both sides of the argument.

And yeah, 2g/lb can be a digestive nightmare

 

[Ranchhand]

Probably why I think my potential lies more in one day becoming a great coach rather than a great bodybuilder, which makes me kind of sad and is definitely humbling, but still awesome.

I just love nerding out on anything and everything bodybuilding lol

Yeah, that's valid, I get it. When I want to really know everything about something, I'll deep dive to learn everything I can about it.