2006 New York Pro

[nuteboy]

i'm just havin' fun worldspan. just playin' around.

take care

 

[ParadiseCup]

Yes, the judges indeed chose Phil

But ask anyone who was there about the "crowd reaction."

this was not a locally biased crowd as there was in Denver.
Neither Phil obviously nor Darrem are from Ny area.

Again, ask anyone there!

Worldspan

ws, what state do you judge in ?

ask anyone there what ? why do we need to ask about a crowd reaction ?

and yes, Phil is not from NY, he lives and claims as is home now Denver, but also lived in Washington state

 

[worldspan]

ws, what state do you judge in ?

ask anyone there what ? why do we need to ask about a crowd reaction ?

and yes, Phil is not from NY, he lives and claims as is home now Denver, but also lived in Washington state

Paradise Cup

First, what difference does it make what state I judge in ?

Hopefully you listened to ProBodybuildingWeekly last night. Host Dan Solomon
distinctly said how much the NY crowd loved Darrem (evidence the crowd
reaction at his being announced 2nd). Even your boy Phil seemed a bit
shocked at his placing first, evidence of his behaviour both at pre-judging
and at the night show.

Further last night on Probodybuildingweekly. co-host Bob Chichierello
as well as third place finisher Dennis James both said they felt Darrem
should have finished first! Even an elderly female usher who had never
seen a contest in her life walked up to Darrem and said "you've been
robbed!"

If you did not hear all this last night on ProbodybuildingWeekly, you
can download past shows.

There is no doubt the Weider/AMSI organization is desperate for a
rookie star in the likes of Flex Wheeler. When you have Peter McGough
editor of Flex seated inches away from the judges, well need I say more.
Unltimately, this sport is its own worst enemy!

Please don't misunderstand me, Phil Heath has a great future. But he was
arguably given a gift in Denver and surely given a gift in New York, so
much so that even he was surprised at the outcome!

Worldspan

 

[ParadiseCup]

Paradise Cup

First, what difference does it make what state I judge in ?

no diff, just wondering

if your ever back in CO, please let us know, we would love to have your experience on our panel.

 

[ParadiseCup]

Paradise Cup
Hopefully you listened to ProBodybuildingWeekly last night. Host Dan Solomon
distinctly said how much the NY crowd loved Darrem (evidence the crowd
reaction at his being announced 2nd). Even your boy Phil seemed a bit
shocked at his placing first, evidence of his behaviour both at pre-judging
and at the night show.
Worldspan

i missed that one, sorry

i love Darrem also, i think he is a great guy and an outstanding bodybuilder

as far as the crowd reaction, we all know that the judges decide on the placings not the crowd.

thanks, but Phil is not my boy. we have just seen him progress at the local shows here and are glad to see him being successful. he is an outstanding gentle, and very humble man who is also a Christian who stands for his beliefs in Christ.

 

[ParadiseCup]

Paradise Cup
Further last night on Probodybuildingweekly. co-host Bob Chichierello
as well as third place finisher Dennis James both said they felt Darrem
should have finished first! Even an elderly female usher who had never
seen a contest in her life walked up to Darrem and said "you've been
robbed!"

Worldspan

as i said above the judges are the ones to decide, just as you and i are qualified, these IFBB judges have to be qualified. if your saying that the judges are unfair, your speaking against us that work in this organization, including you

and as far as being robbed, many competitors or supporters of competitors that do not win will say they are robbed, but I've personally never heard a winner say that he did not deserve it

and a female usher who had never seen a contest in her life said he should have won, good thing she was not judging because she has never even seen a show before much less know how to judge a PRO contest, maybe we could let her judge a show that you enter...lol...j/k

 

[ParadiseCup]

Paradise Cup
There is no doubt the Weider/AMSI organization is desperate for a
rookie star in the likes of Flex Wheeler. When you have Peter McGough
editor of Flex seated inches away from the judges, well need I say more.
Unltimately, this sport is its own worst enemy!

Please don't misunderstand me, Phil Heath has a great future. But he was
arguably given a gift in Denver and surely given a gift in New York, so
much so that even he was surprised at the outcome!

Worldspan

maybe so, but i did not see Peter McGough in Denver and i was seated at the judges table.

thanks for admitting Phil has a great future !!!

as far as the gifts, that is ironic you say that because on the boards that is what Phil goes by is "The Gift"

and if i was in his shoes, i would have been surprised at the outcome also, wouldn't you have been ? i mean to win your first 2 PRO shows against the likes of top PROS Darrem, DH, Dennis James...unbelievable !!!

my opinion is that he will be in the top 3 at the Olympia this year. His physique will change between now and then.

another question to you, what will Phil have to do for you not to say it was "a gift" or that so and so got robbed ?

 

[worldspan]

Paradise Cup!

will address some of your points, not all, time limited.

1. Don't know in Denver, but in NY Peter Mc Gough was seated inches
from the judges.

2. The crowd reaction for Darrem and opposed to Phil was well qualified
in that they saw the same physques in the evening that were there
in the morning. We all know too well morning and evening can look
remarkably different but Phil and Darrem were same condition, maybe
because pre-judging started so late at 2pm, evening show 730pm.

3. Phil was full of confidence in Denver, no sense fueled by the crowd.
His demeanor in NY was much less confident

4. The point about the female usher is the diversity of people who agreed
Darrem had been robbed, whether it be Dennis James or her!

5. Phil place top 3 Olympia this year ? Bro, what are you smokin'? When
similar physiques like Melvin and Darrem are placed 7th and 9th as
was last year, and they each 20lbs more than Phil, no way in hell
Phil will be up there with Ronnie, Jay, Gustavo, and Victor. I even
see Dennis James outplacing Heath there unlike NY, Olympia is a
mass monster contest

6. Week ago last night, on Probodybuilding weekly, Steve Weinberger
was on briefly to hype his show. He was also asked about Phil
and could not heap enough praise. Interesting, cause Steve is
the promoter of NY Pro. How interesting!

7. Back to Phil and Olympia, he would be wise to take a year off (
this was discussed last night on Probodybuildingweekly) and put on
some size. I have utmost respect for Branch Warren, he took 3 years
off from competing after getting pro-card and look where he placed
in Olympia last year and probably place this year!

Worldspan

 

[Skip]

PC,
I ran into this same problem when Phil was chasing his pro card and I was telling everyone that I thought he would run the amateur ranks. You can't and won't convince anyone that he will continue to win. I agree that he will continue to climb and whether he steps on stage this year to ride the momemtum into the O is yet to be seen. If he does, I see him in the top 6. If he holds off until next year I do think he will be in the top 3.

I decided to just sit back and stop "promoting" the guy and just let him do his thing. He will either continue to prove everyone wrong or he may finally lose a show. To say that you are "smoking something" because you think that Phil will do well at the O is incredibly unfair and arrogant. It is arrogant because it implies that your (PCs) opinion is less qualified than WorldSpan's. Both are opinions and nothing more. Remember, there were fellow competitors at the JRs that were saying he would get his ass handed to him.

Phil will continue to silence his critics and will continue to be fun to watch as he does it.

Skip

 

[Crimson Ghost]

I'm glad we're all talking this out, instead of bickering back and forth.

Great talking to you Worldspan....


First, I can look at Phil and Darrem and see weak points in each physique. No one is perfect. BUT, when I look at Darrem, he has weaknesses that jump out at me. With Phil, I have to look harder.

For example: Comparing legs on both of them from the front, here is how Darrems look = VV, they are largest at the hip insertion and get smaller as you go towrd the knee. Phil's look more like = UU, to me I feel they have much more sweep and overall size. Phil's quads have more detail and separation, while Darrems have more striations. Phil's calves KILL Darrem's. From the side Phil has more detail, size and better separation between the hams and quads. From the back Phil has better and larger hamstrings that have way more detail and pop out compared to Darrem.

Upper body: Darrem is larger than Phil, no doubt. But, you really have to look in order to see the difference in size. The difference in size between Darrem and Phil in the upper body is minute while the size difference in the lower body is larger of a margin in Phil's favor. Because of this, I really feel like Darrem's physique is off balance. Back to upper body though, from the front you can tell that Darrem is wider but his waist is wider too. To me, this takes away from his taper. Darrem's biceps are TOO large for his arms. The "perfect" arm should be 1/3 bicep and 2/3 tricep. Darrem's are the opposite. Darrem's biceps are also balloon like in that they look perfectly round and smooth, not a natural shape for the bicep. Remember when Darrem had naturally shaped arms when he was a bit smaller? You could see separation between the heads of his biceps. From the side, Phil stands out more than Darrem because of his sick lower body and his crazy triceps. I also think Phil's chest is thicker and stands out more from the side. From the back, I start to see more of a difference between Phil and Darrem. In the back dbl bicep pose, Phil wins. In the back lat spread, Darrem wins...but this is only if you're just looking at the back. Remember, hamstrings and calves all play into the back poses and that is where Phil pulls back ahead of Darrem in the back lat spread.

So, comparing them bodypart for bodypart I think Darrem only beats Phil in back width and more striations in his quads. Looking at them as whole physiques, top to bottom, left to right, I think there is no denying that Phil is more balanced than Darrem, from every angle. I think the only thing working in Darrem's favor is his age and thinner skin.

BTW, I am impressed by Darrem. Not hating on him at all...but when I judge their physiques, that is what I see.

 

[worldspan]

I'm glad we're all talking this out, instead of bickering back and forth.

Great talking to you Worldspan....


First, I can look at Phil and Darrem and see weak points in each physique. No one is perfect. BUT, when I look at Darrem, he has weaknesses that jump out at me. With Phil, I have to look harder.

For example: Comparing legs on both of them from the front, here is how Darrems look = VV, they are largest at the hip insertion and get smaller as you go towrd the knee. Phil's look more like = UU, to me I feel they have much more sweep and overall size. Phil's quads have more detail and separation, while Darrems have more striations. Phil's calves KILL Darrem's. From the side Phil has more detail, size and better separation between the hams and quads. From the back Phil has better and larger hamstrings that have way more detail and pop out compared to Darrem.

Upper body: Darrem is larger than Phil, no doubt. But, you really have to look in order to see the difference in size. The difference in size between Darrem and Phil in the upper body is minute while the size difference in the lower body is larger of a margin in Phil's favor. Because of this, I really feel like Darrem's physique is off balance. Back to upper body though, from the front you can tell that Darrem is wider but his waist is wider too. To me, this takes away from his taper. Darrem's biceps are TOO large for his arms. The "perfect" arm should be 1/3 bicep and 2/3 tricep. Darrem's are the opposite. Darrem's biceps are also balloon like in that they look perfectly round and smooth, not a natural shape for the bicep. Remember when Darrem had naturally shaped arms when he was a bit smaller? You could see separation between the heads of his biceps. From the side, Phil stands out more than Darrem because of his sick lower body and his crazy triceps. I also think Phil's chest is thicker and stands out more from the side. From the back, I start to see more of a difference between Phil and Darrem. In the back dbl bicep pose, Phil wins. In the back lat spread, Darrem wins...but this is only if you're just looking at the back. Remember, hamstrings and calves all play into the back poses and that is where Phil pulls back ahead of Darrem in the back lat spread.

So, comparing them bodypart for bodypart I think Darrem only beats Phil in back width and more striations in his quads. Looking at them as whole physiques, top to bottom, left to right, I think there is no denying that Phil is more balanced than Darrem, from every angle. I think the only thing working in Darrem's favor is his age and thinner skin.

BTW, I am impressed by Darrem. Not hating on him at all...but when I judge their physiques, that is what I see.

Crimson

Your last sentence, "that is what I see" makes the point! Such differences,
exceptionally well detailed by you, are in the eyes of the beholder!

Lets wish our best to both athletes, Darrem and Phil for even brighter
futures in the sport!

Worldspan

 

[ParadiseCup]

Crimson

Your last sentence, "that is what I see" makes the point! Such differences,
exceptionally well detailed by you, are in the eyes of the beholder!
Worldspan

exactly, in the eye of the beholder...

but, just not any beholder, these beholders happen to be judges and they are the eyes that count

as you know there are usually 7 to 9 different judges in each panel, 1 or 2 hi and lo scores are dropped to help reduce the chance of favoritism and the remaining scores are tallied

the NPC and IFBB judges this way and that is what makes it fair..

 

[Crimson Ghost]

I feel ya Worldspan! No problem!

 

[ParadiseCup]

5. Phil place top 3 Olympia this year ? Bro, what are you smokin'? When
similar physiques like Melvin and Darrem are placed 7th and 9th as
was last year, and they each 20lbs more than Phil, no way in hell
Phil will be up there with Ronnie, Jay, Gustavo, and Victor. I even
see Dennis James outplacing Heath there unlike NY, Olympia is a
mass monster contest
Worldspan

i don't smoke and i quit chewin' 2 years ago cold turkey after 22 years.

how about we make a friendly wager ?

if Phil decides to compete in the Olympia this year, i will take him in the top 3, you choose anyone other than Ronnie or Jay to beat Phil...deal ?

if your willing to wager 1 case of Florida's finest oranges to my 10 lbs of Colorado Buffalo lean meat than let me know...

is anyone else willing to place a friendly wager ? put it out there and let's make a deal....

 

[ParadiseCup]

PC,
I ran into this same problem when Phil was chasing his pro card and I was telling everyone that I thought he would run the amateur ranks. You can't and won't convince anyone that he will continue to win. I agree that he will continue to climb
Phil will continue to silence his critics and will continue to be fun to watch as he does it.

Skip

thanks Skip !!!

have you ever seen Phil in person ? lol...

do you have any pictures standing next to the man on stage that you can post?
YOU did look incredible yourself !!!!

 

[ParadiseCup]

Phil and Dennis - side chest

 

[ParadiseCup]

look at where the lower lats insert

 

[ParadiseCup]

3 monsters...

i wonder what they weighed in at ?

Dennis - 260 ?

Darrem - 230 ?

Phil - 220 ?

 

[worldspan]

exactly, in the eye of the beholder...

but, just not any beholder, these beholders happen to be judges and they are the eyes that count

as you know there are usually 7 to 9 different judges in each panel, 1 or 2 hi and lo scores are dropped to help reduce the chance of favoritism and the remaining scores are tallied

the NPC and IFBB judges this way and that is what makes it fair..

Just because judges are judges does not exonerate them from the moral
obligation of total and uneqivocal impartiality and far too often in this
sport they have failed to uphold that standard.

Further, while judges are trained and experienced to critique a physique
quite unlike the casual observer sitting in the audience, when the decisions
of those judges are too often out of whack with the feeling of the audience,
the sport loses its credibility and suffers as a result.

Worldspan

 

[Crimson Ghost]

look at where the lower lats insert

After seeing that pic I take back saying that Darrem beats Phil in a back lat spread.