400 pound Rows => Heavy Back Cramps

[Classy_Cojones]

It's the fourth time I've ever done barbell rows with 400 pounds.

Evidently cheated, but nothing special, just a bump at the start of the movement.

I got 3 sets of 4 reps each, and I also did 2 working sets with 308 and 330 pounds.

Today is the next day. I'm feeling absolutely ok, but I've got these awful middle back cramps, that send me lying down on the floor or a nearby bed (and I'm laughing from the sudden pain). It seems to happen whenever I don't keep my upper body in a straight, extended posture.

What should I make of this? It's a first for me.

 

[Dave_19]

Heavy rows do the same to me. Try to use less weight with more control. when lowering the bar, the begging portion of the exercise, the slightest bit of momentum will put a huge strain on your back trying to stop the weight.

 

[BrooklynBB]

Lower Back - I've been there.

Hey Classy-balls (english translation, HAHA)

I hope you take the time to read this... I hurt my back just like you doing T-bar rows earlier this year, so please do read:

It's the fourth time I've ever done barbell rows with 400 pounds.

Evidently cheated, but nothing special, just a bump at the start of the movement.

I got 3 sets of 4 reps each, and I also did 2 working sets with 308 and 330 pounds.

Today is the next day. I'm feeling absolutely ok, but I've got these awful middle back cramps, that send me lying down on the floor or a nearby bed (and I'm laughing from the sudden pain). It seems to happen whenever I don't keep my upper body in a straight, extended posture.

What should I make of this? It's a first for me.

Well you already answered your own question in a way.

You say you used a "bump" at the start of the movement. That's telling me that you either:

1) Bounced the bar off your thighs or something

2) Bounced the bar off of pins set up in a power rack

3) Bounced off the floor??

4) Used really bad form and attempted to heave the bar up.

5) other (tell me!)


Now when you say you are cramping is it really a cramp? Or is it a pain that comes and goes depending on what position you are in? (i.e., any position when sitting/standing, some positions while sitting/standing). Cramps usually will just tighten you up for a bit and then go away. But if you strained a lower back muscle, you're not going to be comfortable in any position you try to maintain.

Laying down (with a muscle strain) will alleviate the problem since you're not flexing those lower back muscles, and it sounds like you have a bad strain.

The best thing you can do (and what I did when I did this to myself with T-Bar rows earlier this year) is apply ice to the area as often as possible.

When you are sitting down (in your computer chair for example) put a pillow behind your lower back. This will alleviate the pain, again, because you're allowing your lower back muscles to relax and heal.

One more question: Do you notice that your lower back muscles are flexing on thier own? If so, it's definitely a strain of some sort: some muscles in your back are trying to compensate for the weakness in another area.

I really hope that you get better quickly. As a reference, I had to lay off lifting for only a week, so there's some hope. But don't be silly and go back and hit it hard for at least a week, if not 2 weeks. The time off will allow you to recuperate and even be stronger when you do come back.


And when you finally are in full-blown heavy lifting mode, please please PLEASE do not use ANY MOMENTUM when doing heavy back movements. You're asking for very serious injury, and the reason why you're able to handle this is because of the muscle you've already developed... now imagine you weren't as muscular or built - you'd have blown out your lower spine in some way.

So PLEASE take it easy for AT LEAST A WEEK. If it persists for MORE than two weeks, see a doctor immediately for x-rays to rule out broken bones / misalignments.

Hope this helps....

 

[Nssca]

Sounds like your ego is stronger than you are....GO LIGHTER

 

[Tough Old Man]

I sure see a lot of people doing 400+ lb rows on all these boards. I'm just wondering what some people think a BENT OVER ROW IS.

If all these guys back was parallel to the floor, wonder how much weight they would be doing?

 

[BrooklynBB]

Back and rows

I sure see a lot of people doing 400+ lb rows on all these boards. I'm just wondering what some people think a BENT OVER ROW IS.

If all these guys back was parallel to the floor, wonder how much weight they would be doing?

In all fairness, I rarely see anyone go parallel to the floor when pulling anything above 315. And I don't think that it's necessary to be parallel for full recruitment, and you're asking for injury in that position. I like a little lower than 45 degrees and I'm good. The back likes it, so I'm sure everything's fine in that department.

But I do see some people at my gym row with maybe 135 and sometimes even 225 (GASP) and their form is completely horrid. They're not even doing rows - it's more of a rack pull with no rack.... or a shrug type movement while on an angle.

Perfect example of the above courtesy of the legendary YOU TUBE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlfY_Sqdw_E

Then I see lots of women doing bent over rowing with 10 pound dumbbells with thier elbows flared waaay out to the side.

OR this horrid variation being taught by a so-called expert.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9M1BrJdK9g

...

Here's another guy who THINKS he's doing a YATES row. Yates would tell this guy "When you're done warming up, let me know."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNxZmvOdl5Q



Anyway ... A real yates row would be done in excess of 500 pounds with that form.... lol ...

But I digress...

Don't hurt yourself....

 

[Dave_19]

i think the 3rd video you show has ok form, its not much different from most of our pros that do bent over rows...check out the great JJ and ronnie coleman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHgBMjjnN28

you dont have to have perfect form, im a firm beliver in momentum. w/ reps, more stress=more strain on fibers, more break down, MORE recovery. it seems to work for me okay atleast. this may not apply to bicep barbell curls or other exercises, but I see no harm in the kind of stress 315lbs puts on our back by doing our best at rowing it.

 

[Classy_Cojones]

Thanks for all the advice guys. With a lot of stretching done yesterday, the problem is already gone. Quite unbelievable, given the total upper-body locking cramps that I was having yesterday.

I believe the powerful contractions during training could cause this without actually injuring anything. And I guess I'm ok with that.

Also, momentum is a big part of everything I do. Since I prepare for MMA and other athletic events, I do olympic lifting and strongman work and a lot of dynamic lifting.

BUT, and it's a very important detail, the momentum comes from my legs - and only at the start of the movement - the angle and the arch in my back don't change. I keep a 45 degree angle and a deep arch at all times.

Funny thing is, I'm aiming for 500 pound rows at 185 pounds bodyweight.

 

[BrooklynBB]

Lower Back

I knew someone was going to talk about Ronnie Coleman...

But the guy also does shrugs BEHIND HIS BACK with over 600 pounds and basically bounces up and down with it, does FRONT SQUATS with 6, back squats with 8, pushes over a ton on the Leg Press FOR REPS ..

I think he's kind of in a different world and if he really wanted to, could probably row 600 pounds with momentum and not get hurt. Let's also not forget the form he uses with 12 PLATES on the corner T-Bar rows.

Sorry, bad comparison to say "Since Coleman gets away with it it's ok." Not at all. The back cannot handle that kind of stress over and over again.

And that guys form - all of them that I posted - if you think that's anywhere close to a Yates row, sorry, you're wrong. That's maybe 10 degress removed from a shrug. A yates row has a lower starting position even and like I said, he's doing it with 500 pounds, not 275 or 315. Huge difference.

Momentum has it's place, but not with exercises for the lower back or squat unless you want injury.

 

[BrooklynBB]

BUT, and it's a very important detail, the momentum comes from my legs - and only at the start of the movement - the angle and the arch in my back don't change. I keep a 45 degree angle and a deep arch at all times.

And after you do this, are you holding the contracted position for a split second or just letting it fall back down? Because if you're not holding it, then you're stressing your lower back / spine more than your lats.

I'm not trying to discourage you from going heavy, but look - I've been there and done that. If you want to go for a power movement that will strengthen your back and legs simultaneously, go for heavy deadlifts. Because the motion you're describing is only going to lead to more injury.

You posted that this is only the 4th time you've rowed 400. It only took 4 times for you to do this to hurt yourself. You have to really think about your form, and I'm guessing it's not as strict as you think it is. Just be careful.

 

[Classy_Cojones]

I am holding it for a split second. There's a definite hold, a very strong contraction in my lats.

And what was hurting was the lower-mid part of my lats, not my lower back.

Now, two days later, it's my lats that are still sore.

 

[BrooklynBB]

I am holding it for a split second. There's a definite hold, a very strong contraction in my lats.

And what was hurting was the lower-mid part of my lats, not my lower back.

Now, two days later, it's my lats that are still sore.

It makes sense that if you hurt your lower back, that your middle back would be flexing to compensate for the weakness. You should wait a week and if you want, try what I suggested (ice and the pillow while sitting). If it persists, you can also do what I did and get an x-ray to rule out fractures, structural problems.

 

[Nssca]

Speaking of Ronnie coleman.. he did get hurt and his tricep is horrid looking. If the photo I saw is real he is finished in this sport.

 

[Classy_Cojones]

That's from his show in Romania.

It was right after his triceps injury, that arm was untrained. He has since recovered.

 

[homonunculus]

Had to post this b/c I was so highly impressed... LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rd1i0Ko_BQ

-R

 

[Jaylee]

that dude has focus and mind muscle control!!! he is da real thing.............

 

[Moen]

Too much weight, the bump is momentum and momentum is causing your back pain

Have to say I've never seen someone actually row a weight in my gym

They all seem to be dowing bent over throws, cable throws with stackhitting (for optimal muscle relaxation ???)

I'm still waiting for the day the first powerhouse launches a dumbell through the ceiling