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AAS + blood clot disorders gave me a heart attack

mikevegas

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Okay so I'm new here, and it didn't take me long to run into Maldorf due to one mutual experience we shared, surviving a Heart Attack (HA for short in future typing). He asked that I would take the time to share as well with you lot, so that you understand the risk is real, and that you need to take steps to b sure you are not at risk. I have a ton of info to share, so expect to see it come in a few different posts under this thread, not just one. Fire away with any questions along the way.

First, I am very pro-AAS use. I still am today. If bodybuilding and powerlifting are you bag, then AAS is the contents in that bag. Steroids are ridiculed and feared by those that know nothing about them, or have an agenda for why they bash them. That crowd is obviously not us, and it certainly isn't me. What I have learned though from this is that AAS do have a real life threatening risk to certain people, those with blood clotting disorders. What to learn more? Do your own Google research, use phases like "Steroid blood clots" or "hormone replacement therapy risks" or "hormone replacement therapy blood clots" etc. I'm all for anyone in here wanting to use AAS, I wish I still could. However before you do, or go any further into your cycle history, you need to make sure you have normal healthy blood.

Blood clots are known as silent killers. People generally learn they have one by suffering a HA, pulmonary embolism (PE), stroke. IF they survive, they learn they have a blood disorder. It is understood to be in the Top 5 killers for people, although hard to say where in that 5 it fits. Reason? If I would have died that day, I would be a HA death, not a blood clot disorder death. It would be wrongly labeled. This is how blood clots have been under the radar for so long, and only now starting to get some attention it deserves. To learn more please visit this site:

National Blood Clot Alliance - Stop the Clot Website

October 24, 2009, I lifted back and shoulders, which included heavy deadlifts. It was a two hour workout on a Saturday morning. 30 minutes after the workout ended, I was hit with the first symptom of HA, it felt like I just got stabbed in the chest. 5 minutes later, I had every symptom that goes along with HA. I called 911, and within 45 minutes of making that call I was in surgery. Every single person involved in that 45 minute window saved my life. I had a 65% blockage of my RCA and 80% blockage of my LAD (Google search). The LAD is referred to as The Widow Maker in the medical world. The doctors had to do a Cardiac Catheterization to clean out the flood of blood clots blocking the veins that feed my heart as a muscle, not blood to pump thru the body. The clots were building up in my body over time, especially during the past 5 weeks I was on EQ. The heavy workout that morning got them moving around and they ended up in my heart.

It took time to put the whole picture together afterwards. In quick summation: I have 3 hereditary blood disorders: Factor 2, Factor 8, JAK 2. These alone are enough to kill me, even with treatment. Mixing them, without treatment, along with EQ was deadly. How do we know the EQ has some blame? I had certain blood levels that have never been the same as the day I went into surgery. Basically my INR and Platelet count, along with other misc, have never been at the levels they were that day. So yes I have the disorders, the EQ exacerbated them.

If you are ready to take the time to learn more, then review this website as well:

What you need to know about Hypercoagulable States (blood clotting disorders)

I'll share more later, but now I really need to get back to work :(










'
 

Chipper Jones78

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Wishing you nothing but short recovery bro.

Sometimes it takes HA or BC to realize some of the shit we do is not important and living life is not a joke but a gift. It can be taken from you in an instant, just like that.

You survived, I hope you continue with your life HA free.

Wishing you the best & thank you for sharing your story

Chip
 

Matsuo Munefusa

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i know this may be asking a lot...but could you (or maldorf or anybody else that knows) walk me through what a regular AAS user should check for (given that they JUST got on insurance and have done no tests)

I am guessing it should start with:
full hormonal panel (Total Test, free test, estrogen, LH, FSH, prolactin, IGF, IGF-bp)
RBC/CBC/HCT/HG

then...?

blood clotting disorders (genetic testing?)

what else?
 

maldorf

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Member here named Athlete

Keep an eye out for a thread started by Athlete. He just let us know in another thread, the thread about my heart attack I think, that he was just tested positive for several clotting factors. I hope that he can shed some light on how he got his tests ordered and what his doc ordered.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that all steroids, even just plain old test, can increase your chances of blood clots by at least 2 or more ways. One way is too high a hematocrit/hemoglobin and the other way is altering the levels of the complex series of reactions that take place in the clotting cascade. So if you think youre safe just taking nothing but test you are wrong, but your risk I would think is greatly reduced. In the end it all comes down to common sense and not going crazy with all the different types of drugs and too high doses. EQ and deca are notorious for raising hematocrit. Now I know with my case my hemoglobin was quite normal when I had my heart attack because I had just done a phleobotomy and it tested around 15.5 or so. So there are a couple of factors to worry about: Hct/Hgb and the clotting factors themselves.
I have read that having normal levels of test is your blood causes no alteration of the clotting hormones, but its when you go supraphysiological that you start to alter those.
 

aqrojase

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Keep an eye out for a thread started by Athlete. He just let us know in another thread, the thread about my heart attack I think, that he was just tested positive for several clotting factors. I hope that he can shed some light on how he got his tests ordered and what his doc ordered.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that all steroids, even just plain old test, can increase your chances of blood clots by at least 2 or more ways. One way is too high a hematocrit/hemoglobin and the other way is altering the levels of the complex series of reactions that take place in the clotting cascade. So if you think youre safe just taking nothing but test you are wrong, but your risk I would think is greatly reduced. In the end it all comes down to common sense and not going crazy with all the different types of drugs and too high doses. EQ and deca are notorious for raising hematocrit. Now I know with my case my hemoglobin was quite normal when I had my heart attack because I had just done a phleobotomy and it tested around 15.5 or so. So there are a couple of factors to worry about: Hct/Hgb and the clotting factors themselves.
I have read that having normal levels of test is your blood causes no alteration of the clotting hormones, but its when you go supraphysiological that you start to alter those.
So with Testosterone usage...we have a lower chance of blood clot issues as apposed to other drugs?
 

maldorf

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So with Testosterone usage...we have a lower chance of blood clot issues as apposed to other drugs?
Well, I can only speak for comparing it to deca and EQ. I know that those 2 raise hematocrit more for some reason. As far as impact on the clotting factors, who knows. Most of this has never been studied, so its all an unknown really.
 

aqrojase

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Well, I can only speak for comparing it to deca and EQ. I know that those 2 raise hematocrit more for some reason. As far as impact on the clotting factors, who knows. Most of this has never been studied, so its all an unknown really.
Thanks bro....yes after reading on these boards..it seems like if one were to use AAS for recreational purpose then test would be best choice..when health is some what of a concern. its a whole another ball game for competitive athletes though. I was looking fwd to competing one day..but after reading here..and knowing the heart risks..i guess its out the window now lol.
 

triathloncoach

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HA Risk

Everytime I try to add some Dec. - even at 300mg a week max, my BP skyrockets. I also have some EQ in my little treasure chest of suicide. I'm guessing that will give my BP a nice spike as well.

Even you idiots like me who say they arent worried about dying, stroking out and ending up paralyzed is not just horible for you, but a burden to those who care about you.

I wish more people would heed the caring words of wisdom in the above posts. Learned in the school of hard knocks. I read some of the cycles being posted and its OMG! I know I dont want to risk a permanent breathing tube for that second extra 25lbs of lbw. I'll take the extra 25 I have now and be happy. And keep my fingers crossed.

Listen to Maldorf, listen to Mikevegas, listen to the Big Bapper.:(
 
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mikevegas

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I agree to keep up with Athlete, he took some kind of DNA test that revealed every thing going on in his body, and he detected that he has Factor 2 clotting disorder. I don't know anything about this kind of testing so I will leave that feedback to Athlete.

This is a great test:

Abnormal Bleeding Profile - Private MD

This pretty much covers all the initial bases for blood clotting. If you test bad then you would need further testing to figure out exactly what is causing out of whack results. If you test fine, then there isn't much chance you have a disorder that just wasn't discovered.

$200 could mean the difference between life and death. Sounds fair to me.
 

mikevegas

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If you want to be as safe as possible on cycle, before starting it I would do this:

Double Red Cell Donation | American Red Cross

And:

Platelet Donation | American Red Cross

You can donate the RBC every 56 days, that's it. So I would do it the start of every cycle, the end of every cycle, or if you stay ON then every two months. Do both RBC and platelets. Also, take an baby aspirin every day on cycle.

I know for a fact that EQ is the worst drug out there for blood risk. This is why people's BP spikes so bad on it. Mal has said Deca, I'll trust him but I personally don't have feedback on that. It does seem like Test is the safest route by far from my research. I have also found that Anavar actually enhances the effects of blood thinning medication, so it appears to be a safer choice than other avenues. To put it as blunt as I can, if I choose to cycle again I would follow my own above protocol, and stick with 8 week cycles of Test and Anavar.
 

mikevegas

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Mal pointed out something on his thread that I forgot to address. Anti-E's run the risk of elevated blood clotting events as well, especially Nolva. You need to consider this in the safe protocol steps when figuring on a cycle. So 8 week cycle, 4 week PCT, then consider yourself at higher risk over those 12 weeks. I would always do RBC and Platelet donation before, during, and after a cycle PLUS pct.

Again based on my research, Toremifene has the lowest risk of blood clots of all the AI. In fact it has been touted as the option for women taking AI by perscription, whom are at abnormal clot risk, as a safer option to Nolva.
 
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mikevegas

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One last thing I can think of for now. The disorders I have can appear later in life, and generally do. Most common occurring age group wise start late 30's and increase as you get older. So if you are a younger guy in your 20's say, and pass blood disorder testing, don't fall asleep at the wheel. Retest every 2-3 years or so. Make sure nothing changes as you get older.
 

mikevegas

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aqrojase

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If by chance any of you have missed this thread, I think it is best that you do not. Take the time to read the whole thing it is very humbling:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/37736-just-survived-heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

Maldorf and I share one thing in common that we both wouldn't want you all to share with us, we both almost came just shy of missing our 40th birthday.
Please if you can post your cycle history. How long have you been cycling and at what dosages? What are some of the AAS you have used in the past? Were you taking precautions such as healthy heart supps (fish oil, asprin, garlic, coq10, hawthorne berry) during your cycles. Thank you?
 

taslajrisi

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If you want to be as safe as possible on cycle, before starting it I would do this:

Double Red Cell Donation | American Red Cross

And:

Platelet Donation | American Red Cross

You can donate the RBC every 56 days, that's it. So I would do it the start of every cycle, the end of every cycle, or if you stay ON then every two months. Do both RBC and platelets. Also, take an baby aspirin every day on cycle.

I know for a fact that EQ is the worst drug out there for blood risk. This is why people's BP spikes so bad on it. Mal has said Deca, I'll trust him but I personally don't have feedback on that. It does seem like Test is the safest route by far from my research. I have also found that Anavar actually enhances the effects of blood thinning medication, so it appears to be a safer choice than other avenues. To put it as blunt as I can, if I choose to cycle again I would follow my own above protocol, and stick with 8 week cycles of Test and Anavar.
what are your thoughts on Primobolan? Masteron/Proviron too. Thanks
 

brutale

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If by chance any of you have missed this thread, I think it is best that you do not. Take the time to read the whole thing it is very humbling:

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/37736-just-survived-heart-attack-age-38-follow-up-phils-post.html

Maldorf and I share one thing in common that we both wouldn't want you all to share with us, we both almost came just shy of missing our 40th birthday.
Thank you for talking about this stuff. I think it's a pretty good idea to get checked for these disorders if you're taking any meaningful amount of test or other AAS. We all think it'll be someone else ... thanks again.
 

maldorf

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One last thing I can think of for now. The disorders I have can appear later in life, and generally do. Most common occurring age group wise start late 30's and increase as you get older. So if you are a younger guy in your 20's say, and pass blood disorder testing, don't fall asleep at the wheel. Retest every 2-3 years or so. Make sure nothing changes as you get older.
Yeah, this is where the DNA testing comes in. Since DNA doesnt change, your condition can be discovered before you actually start expressing the gene. I have heard that the genes express more once you hit your 30s, and nobody knows why. Maybe thats how I got away with using steroids for about 10 yrs before anything happened. I was 38 yrs old when I had mine.
 

Athlete

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Hi. About the DNA test.
I'm from Scandinavia, so you probably won't have access to the exact same company I did.

But there are several companies in the states that perform these types of tests. 23andme.com is probably the biggest. It was founded by Anne Wojcicki, wife of Google co-founder Sergey Brin, and has received funding by Google Ventures since 2007.

Edit: Just another edit to confirm that they (23andme) do test for blood clotting disorders, I wasn't sure.
 
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emeric delczeg

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So with Testosterone usage...we have a lower chance of blood clot issues as apposed to other drugs?
Depend what you consider lower doz, for some one with blood disorder 200mg per week it could be to much.
 

Dancho

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Basically my INR and Platelet count, along with other misc, have never been at the levels they were that day.
something i did not quite understand and since you did not mention it specifically i will ask. if you have blood clothing disorder, will your platelet count be low, high or it can also be normal?
 

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