ACTUAL study on MK-677 from PubMed

[Cinder]

I stay away from arguments but do enjoy reading this thread. I have taken nutropin AQ which is US pharma at 7iu for almost a year and I was obv also using Anabolics. Do you know where I got my nutropin from? A person who had it prescribed by a legit Doctor because he was way behind on the growth curve for teenagers. I believe he was about 12-14 at the time. He was prescribed it because of what it does. Help the body grow. Like someone mentioned earlier. It's prescribed worldwide for growth deficiency. And has been for many years now. Why wouldn't it work or why someone wouldn't believe it actual helps grow muscle tisssue is beyond me. But everyone is allowed their opinion. So to each their own

Its been in studies that it doesn't help people unless they have growth deficiency. And then there's the studies that says it hasn't helped skeletal muscle.

 

[Cinder]

I don't think anyone is arguing that hgh will build majority of the muscle on a bodybuilder, steroids will do that undoubtedly. It's a different pathway for growth, and a definitive aid to steroids. Allows you to eat more without getting fatter, induces lypolisis, helps sleep/mood, and most importantly help you recover from taxing workouts.

Do you honestly think a straight shooter like Dorian Yates, who discarded anything that didn't produce results would attribute his additional growth to GH if it didn't work? That it helped him recover and added another level of development on top of steroids.

And the argument against intramuscular water retention is pretty vague, ALL steroids to some degree will cause intramuscular glycogen storage and water retention, a giant portion of your body composition is water, why would having additional water in the muscle be just cosmetic and useless? If we were to only count steroid induced muscle growth in terms of sheer muscle fiber, and not the additional ability to store glycogen and water as a result of that muscle fiber, we'd all be 30-50 lbs smaller. We aren't granite statues (maybe John Meadows but hes an exception[emoji3] ), it's a living body that requires and is made up quite a bit of water.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Good points...
But yeah I lose 20lbs to 30lbs when off hgh. Lol

 

[Mike Arnold]

You're still talking?
You said hgh builds muscle and I said it didn't. That aas is building the muscle and hgh is "helping"
And hello Rambo just said the same thing pretty much and that other stuff is doing so while hgh is the topping on a cake or whatever lol. At least that's what it sounded like. He said you're not gonna build muscle just by being on hgh.
And stewie said the same thing hence why I wanted him to chime in. Sit down already, you just get mad at those who know you're a fraud.

The body naturally produces steroids, so yes, even if a "natural" guy adds GH (enough of it) it will still assist in building muscle. Will the effects approach those of AAS? Of course not, but they are still there...and the number of people who have added GH/IGF-1/GH peptides/secretagogues into their programs without exogenous AAS (these are usually the guys who have not yet made the jump to AAS) and still experienced growth, is extensive. Some of these people even posted in this thread.

Regardless, GH/IGF-1 does not "require" the presence of exogenous AAS in order to stimulate growth, but results are certainly enhanced in the presence of AAS, insulin, etc. This is why bodybuilders typically combine these drugs...because they all enhance growth through their own different pathways.

Your claim that GH/IGF-1 only stimulates water retention and does not aid in muscle accrual flies in the face of not only everything science has taught us about the roles of these drugs in the body, but also decades of anecdotal evidence, in which untold numbers of bodybuilders have added genuine, keep-able muscle mass after using these drugs.

...and Rambo does NOT agree with you. In fact, he said this, to quote "I disagree completely with what you're saying. There is scientific data proving HGH builds muscle. Bodybuilders are not just using it for some water to look bigger, that is ridiculous to say. GH is a hormone, it puts on solid tissue. Your body recovers faster for a reason, you are accelerating everything when adding HGH. IGF1 and MGF are increased significantly with GH use, meaning post training the body is rebuilding at an accelerated rate. How can you deny that builds muscle?"

...and again "I've read probably a hundred studies on gh, gh secretagogues, and igf. Anybody denying they build muscle and tissue has absolutely no clue what they are talking about and has no understanding of the hormone or its functions."


In fact, no one in this thread has agreed with you. Adpolice posted a study showing that GH contributes to muscle growth (which you responded to by saying "that's a good one, thank you"...and then completely ignored it while continuing to say that GH doesn't stimulate growth). Others in this thread have posted scientific research demonstrating the role of these hormones in the body, people have posted their own personal experiences contradicting your claims, and generations of bodybuilders (including every top coach on this site and every other known expert) disagrees with you.

EVERYONE DISAGREES with you...because both science and real-world experience disagrees with you.

Even YOU disagreed with you when you said "It's a cosmetic drug that I think only helps facilitate growth through its healing properties". Of course, you backpedaled afterwards and by saying you didn't really mean that (yet failed to explain what you actually meant).


...and you're still talking? LOL.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Its been in studies that it doesn't help people unless they have growth deficiency. And then there's the studies that says it hasn't helped skeletal muscle.

Yeah, the studies which use GH in non-training people at non-bodybuilding doses. Great comparison.

Hell, there are even studies showing that steroids didn't build any muscle either, when administered under similar circumstances. In fact, 30 years ago some scientists used to claim that steroids didn't build muscle tissue or increase athletic performance because of the "lack" of studies showing it built muscle. Of course, the situation is exactly the same as it is now with GH; there just weren't any studies examining bodybuilding doses of AAS in weight-training individuals.

Their argument was beyond retarded...because even at that time science already knew that AAS stimulated growth under the right conditions (and they had a shit-ton of research showing it to be true, even going as far back as the 30's, which is why Big Pharma invested HUGE sums of money on steroid research in the 50's-70's), yet those scientists ignored relevant data in order to push their own agenda (keeping kids and athletes off AAS).

You are basically just like those scientists who denied that steroids improved growth and performance. The facts are right there for all of us to see, yet because science currently believes it is unethical to study GH at bodybuilding doses for the purpose of muscle growth, you deny hard facts.

There is no doubt that if studies were conducted using GH and IGF-1 in weight training individuals, at bodybuilding doses and with the proper diet, that the study results would confirm what bodybuilders have known all along--that GH and IGF-1 helps stimulate growth.

 

[pesty4077]

Good points...
But yeah I lose 20lbs to 30lbs when off hgh. Lol

If you are losing that much weight, it isn't the GH, it is because you have no clue of what you are doing.

 

[Cinder]

If you are losing that much weight, it isn't the GH, it is because you have no clue of what you are doing.

Have you used near 10iu of pharmacy hgh a day for years? I doubt it... everyone know you lose a lot of water when coming off hgh. This is why everyone asks when or if they should drop hgh before a comp.

 

[pesty4077]

Have you used near 10iu of pharmacy hgh a day for years? I doubt it... everyone know you lose a lot of water when coming off hgh. This is why everyone asks when or if they should drop hgh before a comp.

I have never heard of anyone dropping 20 to 30 pounds of water for a show, that is ridiculous. Please don't insult my intelligence.

 

[Montego]

Wow 20-30lbs?

I could see someone 250+ on stage maybe getting close to that but say a heavyweight, who's 240-250 in the off season, I can't imagine......

I last competed at 217 and I think I dropped 7-9lbs of water and I was pretty dry. Another 11lbs would have put me in the hospital lol.

 

[Cinder]

Wow 20-30lbs?

I could see someone 250+ on stage maybe getting close to that but say a heavyweight, who's 240-250 in the off season, I can't imagine......

I last competed at 217 and I think I dropped 7-9lbs of water and I was pretty dry. Another 11lbs would have put me in the hospital lol.

High dosage pharmacy hgh or at least serostim brings a shit ton of water. At least for me it does. And hiv patients on 18iu gain a shit ton. I lose 20, 30 was sarcastic hence why I write lol.

 

[Montego]

Ahhhh.

I've never ran seros over 5iu but, I don't typically get water retention on Pharm gh.

Generics are a little worse for me. I couldn't imagine 20lbs of water though.... BP and adema would be awful.

 

[sciroxx-lab]

I really can't comprehend any suggestion that GH doesn't have a distinct and dramatic positive effect on lean mess, reduced fat mess and athletic performance. This is well established in recent scientific literature - for instance here is a review -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28514721

The usage of of MK-677 as a replacement for using exogenous GH for wasting syndrom and enhanced performance is still in its infancy, what I find interesting both in the article which is cited in this thread as well in other articles, and also supported by empirical data others and me gather on forums is that the MK doesn't have positive impact on reduction of fat mess in oppose to exogenous GH which has a proven effect in this area

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28514721

 

[Mike Arnold]

I really can't comprehend any suggestion that GH doesn't have a distinct and dramatic positive effect on lean mess, reduced fat mess and athletic performance. This is well established in recent scientific literature - for instance here is a review -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28514721

The usage of of MK-677 as a replacement for using exogenous GH for wasting syndrom and enhanced performance is still in its infancy, what I find interesting both in the article which is cited in this thread as well in other articles, and also supported by empirical data others and me gather on forums is that the MK doesn't have positive impact on reduction of fat mess in oppose to exogenous GH which has a proven effect in this area

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28514721

It is interesting to note that Anamorelin, a GH secretagogue with close similarities to Ibutamoren (MK-677) and the same mechanism of action, was recently released as a script drug for lean mas retention in Europe.

This, along with all the research previously done on M-677 (demonstrating its lean mass-building properties) is pretty strong scientific evidence for its effectiveness as a performance enhancer. Of course, the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming.

While clinical trials do appear to support the belief that exo. GH is superior from a fat loss standpoint when compared to MK-677 (on an iu to iu basis), I do NOT think this means that MK-677 does not stimulate fat loss. Why? A few reasons. One, I think it is important to note that MK-677 has very strong appetite stimulating effects in the majority, while exo. GH does not. This should not be discounted, especially considering the study parameters. You see, in all the studies ever conducted on MK-677, none were ever done with the express intention of determining its true fat loss capabilities. Basically, test subjects were instructed to take MK-677 at a set dosage and required to report back for testing at predetermined times. No dietary restrictions were put in place, which is almost guaranteed to drastically skew the data from a fat loss standpoint.

How could it not? Giving people a drug which dramatically increases appetite is extremely likely to lead to increased caloric intakes across the board. When other drugs, which promote a similar degree of appetite stimulation, have been studied for their effects in test subjects, fat gain is always a common denominator. In fact, I think one would be hard-pressed to find a single study in which similarly potent appetite stimulating drugs, when diet is not controlled, did not result in fat gain...and many such drugs exist spanning multiple classes of drugs.

Given MK-677's ability to potently stimulate appetite, one would expect test subjects to gain fat, not maintain bodyfat levels. Yet, that's exactly what happened. Furthermore, the research shows that MK-677 increased metabolism (similar to GH), which in itself should have resulted in fat loss. The fact that it did not indicates that subjects were simply eating more than usual, thereby preventing its fat loss/metabolism stimulating effects from resulting in measurable fat loss.

It is also relevant to note that we currently have no explanation for MK's inability to induce fat loss in test subjects, aside from the explanation presented here. This actually makes the most sense, as GH is universally acknowledged to stimulate fat loss; a hormone which MK-677 does a great job at elevating.

Lastly, there is also anecdotal evidence to suggest it does stimulate fat loss. Not only have people in this thread claimed to have experienced fat loss with MK-677, but so have many others in various forums across the Net.

Of course, MK-677's fat loss effects haven't been clinically proven, but when looking at the evidence as a whole, the above explanation at least seems plausible. This is not to say that it's fat loss effects are equal to GH, but I severely doubt that has no effect in this area. From what I can see, the available evidence appears to contradict that train of thought.

 

[RamboStallone]

Mike I agree. Since MK677 increases GH and IGF, honestly that's enough to say it will promote fat loss. MK677 is like a PH in a sense in that it initiates the body to release these hormones which have the functions we are after for bodybuilding. I for one get too lethargic and hungry on MK677, so that makes it hard to "lose" fat while using it. I just switch to hexarelin and cjc and/or gh in those situations and it works the same as MK677 without the hunger. The lethargy you have to play with doses and timing and eventually find what works best.

 

[sub7percent]

I can say that I ran 25mg mk677 daily along with 12-15iu slin preworkout and ate a ton of carbs each day while bulking and didn't accumulate any fat. I was very surprised. Also was running test/primo/dbol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nosnmiveins]

I keep hearing Anamorelin being mentioned. Mike you got this coming down the pipe?

 

[DOGGCRAPP]

I said beef isolate is just beef gelatin and aminos added.
I use TN and was just wondering why he'd have that product.

No its not....we had beef protein isolate formulated for ourselves. We were the first company to do it and OUR version is and has always been originated from lean cuts of beef.

We were the first company to offer this product....we took a two step process to do it (it wasnt even a product previously....we took a material from one source again sourced from lean cuts of beef) and sent to another company and had it spray dried....We have since had our method copied by a huge corporation who is sourcing beef protein isolate for others

 

[Stewie Griffon]

Stewie come chime in with your thoughts

Stewie isn't going to deny that IGF-1 stimulates growth. He wouldn't do it before and he won't do it now. He's not dumb...and quite frankly, with the new research showing that the GH molecule itself also plays a role n muscle growth (which adpolice posted and which I have been citing for about 2 years now), don't expect any help from him.

HOLY CRAP THIS THREAD IS ALREADY 4 PAGES!!!!

I browse PubMed, I enjoy reading medical studies.

I do not think a medical research article is worth arguing over, the information is there for anyone to read.

And if you want my opinion: Mike I am looking forward to trying the bottle of MK677 I ordered (when it arrives)

 

[JD70]

Damn I had my thyroid removed 7 years ago for cancer and have some somatize on the way. You think I shouldn't take it? Been using AAS most of that time and had no problems - didn't occur to me I shouldn't take gh or mk677

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[Cinder]

No its not....we had beef protein isolate formulated for ourselves. We were the first company to do it and OUR version is and has always been originated from lean cuts of beef.

We were the first company to offer this product....we took a two step process to do it (it wasnt even a product previously....we took a material from one source again sourced from lean cuts of beef) and sent to another company and had it spray dried....We have since had our method copied by a huge corporation who is sourcing beef protein isolate for others

Well thank you for clearing that up.
There's been terrible news on beef isolate but I have no reason to doubt your products. Which Is why I was shocked to see this offered cause I assumed the worst of beef is from other sources.
Thank you for chiming in with this info.

 

[Cinder]

I have never heard of anyone dropping 20 to 30 pounds of water for a show, that is ridiculous. Please don't insult my intelligence.

I didn't mean they lose that much for a show...
When you stop hgh you start losing the weight within a few months.
What I meant was...this is why people ask "when to drop hgh before a show" They're not talking about literally right before, as in weeks or a month or two out. They're wondering when it's best to do so for water retention purposes, because hgh water seem to hang around longer than that of AAS. I never researched why that is.
Gaining that much water is pretty common with certain hgh. Rips and sero have caused this for example, but for some reason you're leaner and less watery on hgh like humatrope.