Adding DHEA when on AAS/trt.

[Thebigone]

A long time ago I believe it was Stewie who mentioned that long term use of AAS can cause some natural hormones like DHEA to lower. My levels were in range but very low end of the range and I'm on TRT. Oral and sublingual did nothing for them but 90mg transdermal brought them from the low 100's to 253(range I believe is 100-380. I take 30mg morning and 60mg night. My ? Is should I add more to get closer to 380 or is it not that necessary?

 

[landmarkchem.raine]

You'd better checked by your doc. IMO, you could go ahead and add it.

 

[Thebigone]

Here is the post I was talking about when Stewie mentioned it.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/f...nolone-progesterone-forgotten-bloodtests.html

 

[HangingOn]

I'm about to add it too because mine was a bit low. Not sure if I'm going to do 25mg oral 2x daily or 25mg sublingual.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[drkimcrawford]

Answer fro Dr.Kim

HI All,
Stewie is right and here's why. AAS ALLOW you to work out at an incredibly hard rate, creating free radicals (oxidative stress),inflammation and elevating cortisol levels. When adrenals are cranking out cortisol, epi and norepi for a while and you are also usually drinking or taking stimulants, your adrenals start to poop out-you get adrenal stress,then adrenal fatigue where you feel fatigued,sleep is interrupted, you awaken unrefreshed,etc.

Someone who has a high cort,normal DHEA is stage one,usually no symptoms
Someone with a high cort and also high DHEA is stage 2-no sx or minor sx and you drink more coffee

Someone with high cort and DHEA is dropping is stage 3-50/50 symptoms

But IF you take JUST DHEA with no adrenal support this will push you into full blown adrenal fatigue. I diagnose and treat this ALL THE TIME, expecially in my elite athletes like you guys.

Best,
Dr.Kim-here's a good syopsis article for you:
https://www.drkimsagewellsolutions.com/2016/02/09/adrenal-fatigue/

 

[b_cornelius]

It would be nice to understand what the imperative is regarding the various "prohormones." DHEA has it's own affinities and actions, besides acting as a procurer to other hormones. It would be nice to have a better picture.

Regardless, all those China Raw suppliers produce esterfied DHEA for injection, but I wonder if anybody sells a good product? Besides bodybuilding, DHEA is definitely within the HRT niche, so obviously a TEST/DHEA product would command a broader demand.

Also I am open to anyone who can technically-describe what is referred to as "adrenal fatigue."

 

[drkimcrawford]

LOL Cornelius!

Hey sweetie! I DID explain adrenal fatigue thoroughly,just scroll up and click on my article!

Actually here is the FULL EXPLANTION OF ADRENAL FATIGUE again just for you!

Dr.Kim
PS Vit D is the only prohormone,DHEA is an important HORMONE and here's some of it's actions:

Improves bone density
Simulates neural stem cell development
Is very immune stimulating such that when pts get a cold I have them double up on DHEA
DHEA isn't "necessary" as an injection. There are a ton of good pharma grade DHEA's out there including on my website.
Did you know keto-DHEA doesn't break down to T or E AND increases metabolism? Yep. I have that too. It's a shame no one is actually looking at my site and my services, I'm helping guys win contests.

 

[HangingOn]

HI All,
Stewie is right and here's why. AAS ALLOW you to work out at an incredibly hard rate, creating free radicals (oxidative stress),inflammation and elevating cortisol levels. When adrenals are cranking out cortisol, epi and norepi for a while and you are also usually drinking or taking stimulants, your adrenals start to poop out-you get adrenal stress,then adrenal fatigue where you feel fatigued,sleep is interrupted, you awaken unrefreshed,etc.

Someone who has a high cort,normal DHEA is stage one,usually no symptoms
Someone with a high cort and also high DHEA is stage 2-no sx or minor sx and you drink more coffee

Someone with high cort and DHEA is dropping is stage 3-50/50 symptoms

But IF you take JUST DHEA with no adrenal support this will push you into full blown adrenal fatigue. I diagnose and treat this ALL THE TIME, expecially in my elite athletes like you guys.

Best,
Dr.Kim-here's a good syopsis article for you:
https://www.drkimsagewellsolutions.com/2016/02/09/adrenal-fatigue/

138.5-475.2 was the dhea range on my labs. I tested at 137.2. What would you suggest?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[Stewie]

HI All,
Stewie is right and here's why. AAS ALLOW you to work out at an incredibly hard rate, creating free radicals (oxidative stress),inflammation and elevating cortisol levels. When adrenals are cranking out cortisol, epi and norepi for a while and you are also usually drinking or taking stimulants, your adrenals start to poop out-you get adrenal stress,then adrenal fatigue where you feel fatigued,sleep is interrupted, you awaken unrefreshed,etc.

Someone who has a high cort,normal DHEA is stage one,usually no symptoms
Someone with a high cort and also high DHEA is stage 2-no sx or minor sx and you drink more coffee

Someone with high cort and DHEA is dropping is stage 3-50/50 symptoms

But IF you take JUST DHEA with no adrenal support this will push you into full blown adrenal fatigue. I diagnose and treat this ALL THE TIME, expecially in my elite athletes like you guys.

Best,
Dr.Kim-here's a good syopsis article for you:
https://www.drkimsagewellsolutions.com/2016/02/09/adrenal-fatigue/

Dr. Kim

Have you noticed a upward or downward shift in DHEA-s levels in your patients that use either metformin or arimidex?

I know several other drugs influence DHEA-s levels. Tho these two being the more common.

 

[Thebigone]

It would be nice to understand what the imperative is regarding the various "prohormones." DHEA has it's own affinities and actions, besides acting as a procurer to other hormones. It would be nice to have a better picture.

Regardless, all those China Raw suppliers produce esterfied DHEA for injection, but I wonder if anybody sells a good product? Besides bodybuilding, DHEA is definitely within the HRT niche, so obviously a TEST/DHEA product would command a broader demand.

Also I am open to anyone who can technically-describe what is referred to as "adrenal fatigue."

I've had success with "life flo" dhea 30mg transdermal.

 

[Thebigone]

HI All,
Stewie is right and here's why. AAS ALLOW you to work out at an incredibly hard rate, creating free radicals (oxidative stress),inflammation and elevating cortisol levels. When adrenals are cranking out cortisol, epi and norepi for a while and you are also usually drinking or taking stimulants, your adrenals start to poop out-you get adrenal stress,then adrenal fatigue where you feel fatigued,sleep is interrupted, you awaken unrefreshed,etc.

Someone who has a high cort,normal DHEA is stage one,usually no symptoms
Someone with a high cort and also high DHEA is stage 2-no sx or minor sx and you drink more coffee

Someone with high cort and DHEA is dropping is stage 3-50/50 symptoms

But IF you take JUST DHEA with no adrenal support this will push you into full blown adrenal fatigue. I diagnose and treat this ALL THE TIME, expecially in my elite athletes like you guys.

Best,
Dr.Kim-here's a good syopsis article for you:
https://www.drkimsagewellsolutions.com/2016/02/09/adrenal-fatigue/

I haven't had a cortisol test in a long time but I'm pretty sure my adrenals are shot bc I use around 40-60mg adderall daily along with pre workout drinks for years and years. I take a ton of supps and this for adrenals:
Douglas Laboratories AdrenoMend? -- 120 Vegetarian Capsules

You recommended anything else even if I'm still on stimulants? Thanks

 

[Stewie]

I haven't had a cortisol test in a long time but I'm pretty sure my adrenals are shot bc I use around 40-60mg adderall daily along with pre workout drinks for years and years. I take a ton of supps and this for adrenals:
Douglas Laboratories AdrenoMend? -- 120 Vegetarian Capsules

You recommended anything else even if I'm still on stimulants? Thanks

The adderall is messing up the conduction network of your neurotransmitters. Myelin sheath degradation is nothing you wanna pursue long-term. Nor short-term for that matter. The neurotoxicity of amphetamines is no good, my friend.

 

[Thebigone]

The adderall is messing up the conduction network of your neurotransmitters. Myelin sheath degradation is nothing you wanna pursue long-term. Nor short-term for that matter. The neurotoxicity of amphetamines is no good, my friend.

I know I'm trying my best to wean off. I'm always on AAS and GH which I heard helps with the degradation but I have an appt with my DR Monday and I'm going to see if he thinks I should go on Wellbutrin while going off adderall so I can not have depleted dopamine and norepinephrine and won't feel like shit.

 

[Thebigone]

The adderall is messing up the conduction network of your neurotransmitters. Myelin sheath degradation is nothing you wanna pursue long-term. Nor short-term for that matter. The neurotoxicity of amphetamines is no good, my friend.

Also if amphetamines degrade myelin sheaths I'm assuming ephedra and 1 3 dimethylamylamine are just as bad?

 

[drkimcrawford]

HI all!

Ohhhh Stewie is right Thebigone!

Adderall is uber-toxic to adrenals.

When treating adrenals that are well "stressed out" we use
1. Adrenal adaptogens
2. Adrenal glandulars

**broken link removed**

2 adrenal thrive AM and noon-2 PM ( to do an adrenal re-set at peak cortisol crank hours)...
2 adrenal fusion AM and noon-2 PM too

Sometimes BI hydrocortisone is needed-like I currently have to politicians who are heavy-campaigning and keep going into AF I need to keep giving them more adrenal support.

Also helpful is acetyl-l-carnitine (article all about it) and you take it at the reset times

Even the right aromatherpy blends have been shown to decrease cortisols,sounds like witchcraft but true....

When cortisol and sleep and energy normalizes you can do AM/PM with supplements.

The big one-YES they are as bad,ever weaned off and tried GPC? Here's an **broken link removed**

Stewie:No effect with arimidex noted,but can see where you're going with that....I would thinK E2 levels would need to be super high to get a negative feedback with the DHEA-S.

I try to keep any pharmaceuticals to a minimum and can treat blood sugars up to 150ish without drugs.

The few that need metformin tend to have "adrenal stress" from being a little OW, having inflammation that's hard to control and tend to be "stressed" people who crank out more epi.

Due to all of that,yes I see adrenal involvement but it depends WHERE in the AS-AF cycle they are-if they are stage 3 yes I do see low DHEA-s. Here an AF article if anyone is interested.

Happy weekend all!
Dr.Kim
PS GPC makes you concentrate and "think faster" and you CAN wean off stimulants and Stewie is right,they fry your BRAIN too. A brain is a good thing to have I'd found (LOL).

 

[Stewie]

Also if amphetamines degrade myelin sheaths I'm assuming ephedra and 1 3 dimethylamylamine are just as bad?

A topic that's rarely discussed or most don't realize. There's data indicating amphetamines can cause myelin sheath degradation, inhibit dopamine release from D2 autoreceptors, neurotoxicity from over-stimuli of dopaminergic neurons that could possibly autooxidize too a nasty byproduct (metabolite), 6-hydroxydopamine. Thus, ultimately leading to dysfunction of the BBB (blood brain barrier), potentially setting the stage for pathogen(s) to breach the BBB. This all extends beyond dopaminergic and serotonergic terminal dysfunction people obsess over.

If you're not familiar with what autoreceptors, axonal/myelin sheathing or the blood brain barrier is. I encourage you to read-up on these, which are very important conduction action potentials related to neurotransmission.

We all differ and are driven by different neuro-pathways. It's not limited to just dopamine. Knowing your personality trait can be of benefit to help regain the unwanted side effects of amphetamines.

As for myself. My favorable personality trait (I'm a introverted thinking [Ti], type of person). Knowing this helped me understand which area of the subtype(s) of neurotransmitters I needed to focus on, while coming off of Adderall. Unlike extroverts, who thrive and are driven mainly by dopamine. Most, yet not all Introverted individuals are primarily driven by acetylcholine. Acetylcholine interacts with the dopaminergic system, though it's hypothesized the pathways seem to differ. Personally I feel like shit if I amp up dopamine signalling too much. Where I feel my best. My area of focus is to slightly boost acetylcholine via CDP choline supplemention. A few experimental models has shown acetylcholine increases norepinephrine and dopamine. As well, there is some data indicating that CDP-choline may enhance myelin regeneration. Given that adderall has been noted to cause myelin degradation. This, with further discussed approaches may help reduce the induced neurotoxicity from Adderall.

I'll try to add more later on what direction I would approach. As it is we have our grandson for the night.

Have a good night...And happy fathers day too those dads out there

 

[Ashop]

A long time ago I believe it was Stewie who mentioned that long term use of AAS can cause some natural hormones like DHEA to lower. My levels were in range but very low end of the range and I'm on TRT. Oral and sublingual did nothing for them but 90mg transdermal brought them from the low 100's to 253(range I believe is 100-380. I take 30mg morning and 60mg night. My ? Is should I add more to get closer to 380 or is it not that necessary?

DHEA has always given me gyno symptoms and I'm not really prone to gyno. I wont use it again myself.

 

[Thebigone]

A topic that's rarely discussed or most don't realize. There's data indicating amphetamines can cause myelin sheath degradation, inhibit dopamine release from D2 autoreceptors, neurotoxicity from over-stimuli of dopaminergic neurons that could possibly autooxidize too a nasty byproduct (metabolite), 6-hydroxydopamine. Thus, ultimately leading to dysfunction of the BBB (blood brain barrier), potentially setting the stage for pathogen(s) to breach the BBB. This all extends beyond dopaminergic and serotonergic terminal dysfunction people obsess over.

If you're not familiar with what autoreceptors, axonal/myelin sheathing or the blood brain barrier is. I encourage you to read-up on these, which are very important conduction action potentials related to neurotransmission.

We all differ and are driven by different neuro-pathways. It's not limited to just dopamine. Knowing your personality trait can be of benefit to help regain the unwanted side effects of amphetamines.

As for myself. My favorable personality trait (I'm a introverted thinking [Ti], type of person). Knowing this helped me understand which area of the subtype(s) of neurotransmitters I needed to focus on, while coming off of Adderall. Unlike extroverts, who thrive and are driven mainly by dopamine. Most, yet not all Introverted individuals are primarily driven by acetylcholine. Acetylcholine interacts with the dopaminergic system, though it's hypothesized the pathways seem to differ. Personally I feel like shit if I amp up dopamine signalling too much. Where I feel my best. My area of focus is to slightly boost acetylcholine via CDP choline supplemention. A few experimental models has shown acetylcholine increases norepinephrine and dopamine. As well, there is some data indicating that CDP-choline may enhance myelin regeneration. Given that adderall has been noted to cause myelin degradation. This, with further discussed approaches may help reduce the induced neurotoxicity from Adderall.

I'll try to add more later on what direction I would approach. As it is we have our grandson for the night.

Have a good night...And happy fathers day too those dads out there

Thanks Stewie. I'm also more of an introvert and I've never tried supplementing with acetylcholine. I will defiantly try it.

 

[emeric delczeg]

Ohhhh Stewie is right Thebigone!

Adderall is uber-toxic to adrenals.

When treating adrenals that are well "stressed out" we use
1. Adrenal adaptogens
2. Adrenal glandulars

**broken link removed**

2 adrenal thrive AM and noon-2 PM ( to do an adrenal re-set at peak cortisol crank hours)...
2 adrenal fusion AM and noon-2 PM too

Sometimes BI hydrocortisone is needed-like I currently have to politicians who are heavy-campaigning and keep going into AF I need to keep giving them more adrenal support.

Also helpful is acetyl-l-carnitine (article all about it) and you take it at the reset times

Even the right aromatherpy blends have been shown to decrease cortisols,sounds like witchcraft but true....

When cortisol and sleep and energy normalizes you can do AM/PM with supplements.

The big one-YES they are as bad,ever weaned off and tried GPC? Here's an **broken link removed**

Stewie:No effect with arimidex noted,but can see where you're going with that....I would thinK E2 levels would need to be super high to get a negative feedback with the DHEA-S.

I try to keep any pharmaceuticals to a minimum and can treat blood sugars up to 150ish without drugs.

The few that need metformin tend to have "adrenal stress" from being a little OW, having inflammation that's hard to control and tend to be "stressed" people who crank out more epi.

Due to all of that,yes I see adrenal involvement but it depends WHERE in the AS-AF cycle they are-if they are stage 3 yes I do see low DHEA-s. Here an AF article if anyone is interested.

Happy weekend all!
Dr.Kim
PS GPC makes you concentrate and "think faster" and you CAN wean off stimulants and Stewie is right,they fry your BRAIN too. A brain is a good thing to have I'd found (LOL).

There is a natural supplement that contains all the natural catalog stem cell biosimilar microRNAs, endogenous pep-tides, growth factors and pluripotent Yamanaka factors, which help to normalize and restore the adrenal cortex activity(androgens, gluco-corticoid, and mineral- corticoid with out using any DHEA.

 

[dragonfire101]

Ohhhh Stewie is right Thebigone!

Adderall is uber-toxic to adrenals.

When treating adrenals that are well "stressed out" we use
1. Adrenal adaptogens
2. Adrenal glandulars

**broken link removed**

2 adrenal thrive AM and noon-2 PM ( to do an adrenal re-set at peak cortisol crank hours)...
2 adrenal fusion AM and noon-2 PM too

Sometimes BI hydrocortisone is needed-like I currently have to politicians who are heavy-campaigning and keep going into AF I need to keep giving them more adrenal support.

Also helpful is acetyl-l-carnitine (article all about it) and you take it at the reset times

Even the right aromatherpy blends have been shown to decrease cortisols,sounds like witchcraft but true....

When cortisol and sleep and energy normalizes you can do AM/PM with supplements.

The big one-YES they are as bad,ever weaned off and tried GPC? Here's an **broken link removed**

Stewie:No effect with arimidex noted,but can see where you're going with that....I would thinK E2 levels would need to be super high to get a negative feedback with the DHEA-S.

I try to keep any pharmaceuticals to a minimum and can treat blood sugars up to 150ish without drugs.

The few that need metformin tend to have "adrenal stress" from being a little OW, having inflammation that's hard to control and tend to be "stressed" people who crank out more epi.

Due to all of that,yes I see adrenal involvement but it depends WHERE in the AS-AF cycle they are-if they are stage 3 yes I do see low DHEA-s. Here an AF article if anyone is interested.

Happy weekend all!
Dr.Kim
PS GPC makes you concentrate and "think faster" and you CAN wean off stimulants and Stewie is right,they fry your BRAIN too. A brain is a good thing to have I'd found (LOL).

I have a high stress job and need adrenal support. I have a host of symptoms that are causing heart and kidney pain lately and also symptoms in the past that presented as autoimmune disease neuromuscular in nature such as muscular dystrophy and multiple sclerosis and weird dermatographia condition at one time. I seen very well known endocrinologist in past and diagnosed with high cortisol, low test an hypothyroidism. He said my problems will never go away until I quit my job and he sees a bunch of people with similar issues that work in my field and where I work and they were told them the same thing. That's not really an option at this time so not sure what to do. :banghead:

I mean all day is non stop crisis and body and mind never get chance to stop. I mean the % rate of autoimmune disease development is staggering within 5 years on the job. Out of 70 employees just at my office 4 developed MS, 2Lupus everyone as thyroid issues and host of unknown autoimmune disease. people are crying in the bathroom and having panic attacks its so stressful.

I would like to figure out what I can do to minimize this as much as possible.