All things insulin- my take, opinion and experience.

[bbxtreme]

And if we don’t? Just an outlier or ?

Could be one of the following and likely in this order IMO:

1. Carrying too much BF.
2. Not hydrated- electrolytes water and sea salt pre.
3. Could be mildly insulin resistant. Tied to #1 in most cases.

 

[gauge22-v2]

Pumps and fullness should be the main thing you notice initially with using insulin. You’re headed in the right direction.

It was pretty mind blowing for me as I was absolutely handicapped after doing calves today. They were way fuller/painful

 

[svenrpb]

It was pretty mind blowing for me as I was absolutely handicapped after doing calves today. They were way fuller/painful

TBH for me that is only when you initially start Insulin. The pumps aren´t that much anymore after a while.

 

[gauge22-v2]

Is there a preferred method of training while using insulin? For instance wouldn't a higher rep/volume program work better compared to low reps/HIT type training?

 

[bbxtreme]

Is there a preferred method of training while using insulin? For instance wouldn't a higher rep/volume program work better compared to low reps/HIT type training?

That’s actually a good question. I personally haven’t found a difference with high volume vs low volume as long as you’re implementing progressive overload as the goal is to get glycogen and nutrients into the muscle.

One could argue if you’re using it at the end of a cut or for a peak week then doing higher volume could be more beneficial such as super sets and giant sets.

Others may have better results one way or the other, but I have done both styles of training and have found no significant difference.

 

[dimethyl11]

I keep coming back to this thread - it’s a gem here at PM. I’m not using slin rn but I had a random thought..

Not thinking of future insulin resistance/ blood glucose issues (I think the answer is obvious)

Would it be better to take a fast acting insulin like log during a growth phase when:

A) fasted blood glucose starts creeping up and using insulin to bring back in range
B) when blood glucose is 80-90 fasted

Eating 600-700g carbs daily in both scenarios

 

[bbxtreme]

I keep coming back to this thread - it’s a gem here at PM. I’m not using slin rn but I had a random thought..

Not thinking of future insulin resistance/ blood glucose issues (I think the answer is obvious)

Would it be better to take a fast acting insulin like log during a growth phase when:

A) fasted blood glucose starts creeping up and using insulin to bring back in range
B) when blood glucose is 80-90 fasted

Eating 600-700g carbs daily in both scenarios

I’ll answer in the context of the question as my overall answer would be to not let BG get out of control and it shouldn’t be in a progressive phase.

Guys here will do option B and have different approaches than me, but my preference would be A.

I like to exhaust each factor prior to changing or adding another. It allows you to extend the runway further.

I would start with high days and use a low amount of lantus along with Humalog- when I say low I mean like 3-4 units of Humalog and 10-15 units of lantus. Start and exhaust that using a CGM (my preference) or glucometer and adjust as food and progress moves.

 

[dimethyl11]

I’ll answer in the context of the question as my overall answer would be to not let BG get out of control and it shouldn’t be in a progressive phase.

Guys here will do option B and have different approaches than me, but my preference would be A.

I like to exhaust each factor prior to changing or adding another. It allows you to extend the runway further.

I would start with high days and use a low amount of lantus along with Humalog- when I say low I mean like 3-4 units of Humalog and 10-15 units of lantus. Start and exhaust that using a CGM (my preference) or glucometer and adjust as food and progress moves.

Thanks that’s perfect!

So then as a part two - how would you decide when to implement insulin? What’s your sign or signal that this is the right time to bring it in?

If you’re keeping BG always in range during a growing phase you would technically never hit the option A in my original question?

 

[bbxtreme]

Thanks that’s perfect!

So then as a part two - how would you decide when to implement insulin? What’s your sign or signal that this is the right time to bring it in?

If you’re keeping BG always in range during a growing phase you would technically never hit the option A in my original question?

I should have clarified- keeping BG in range meaning that the insulin response/sensitivity is correct and the pancreas is doing its job and to maximum capacity. Meaning my A1C and fasted BG average is in range over days and the week. This is where a CGM is useful but can use a glucometer and notebook instead.

But when you eat more carbs than your pancreas can release insulin to cover is ideally when you would aim to implement it. This is most common on high days a few meals in as you’ll see BG go up, but take longer to come back down. This is the points when you’d want to implement Humalog/lantus.

You could also use just Humalog to cover those windows where carbs are the highest- pre meal, pre workout and post workout. It really comes down to your goal and where you’re at in your plan. These factors are where having a good coach can help and why tracking all metrics is invaluable as a bodybuilder.

Now don’t get me wrong- my initial post still stands and I can tell people how to do your option B all day long. It’s an easy way to do and get started for most guys. But if you want to maximize each tool and push each phase as far as you can then it makes sense to do it the way I’m suggesting here. Both ways work, it all comes down to the bodybuilder and goal.

 

[dimethyl11]

I should have clarified- keeping BG in range meaning that the insulin response/sensitivity is correct and the pancreas is doing its job and to maximum capacity. Meaning my A1C and fasted BG average is in range over days and the week. This is where a CGM is useful but can use a glucometer and notebook instead.

But when you eat more carbs than your pancreas can release insulin to cover is ideally when you would aim to implement it. This is most common on high days a few meals in as you’ll see BG go up, but take longer to come back down. This is the points when you’d want to implement Humalog/lantus.

You could also use just Humalog to cover those windows where carbs are the highest- pre meal, pre workout and post workout. It really comes down to your goal and where you’re at in your plan. These factors are where having a good coach can help and why tracking all metrics is invaluable as a bodybuilder.

Now don’t get me wrong- my initial post still stands and I can tell people how to do your option B all day long. It’s an easy way to do and get started for most guys. But if you want to maximize each tool and push each phase as far as you can then it makes sense to do it the way I’m suggesting here. Both ways work, it all comes down to the bodybuilder and goal.

Always great info, thanks brother!

 

[MMAFIGHTER]

@bbxtreme do you use retatrutide when you are using insulin on your high days? I was just curious with the Reta helping insulin sensitivity if this cause you to have to use less insulin on those high days?

 

[bbxtreme]

@bbxtreme do you use retatrutide when you are using insulin on your high days? I was just curious with the Reta helping insulin sensitivity if this cause you to have to use less insulin on those high days?

I don’t use Reta anymore and personally don’t suggest it for anyone in a progressive phase pushing calories and insulin. It’s a bit counter protective IMO.

 

[MMAFIGHTER]

I don’t use Reta anymore and personally don’t suggest it for anyone in a progressive phase pushing calories and insulin. It’s a bit counter protective IMO.

That’s kind of what I was thinking, I seen you had a lot of input on some of the retatrutide post I searched and read up on so I was just curious. Makes sense though, thank you!

 

[Joltan]

Not an insulin user, but been around a while and enjoy learning about everything even if I don’t partake. So, I can’t give anecdotal info, but think I could add a few things of benefit to some. I like your approach of 2x per week… paradoxically, a lot of ‘bad’ things become good things when it’s used acutely like 1x per week. In those cases it’s because your body adapts to the stress, and overcompensates.


Here are some methods to keep fat off on insulin. Not saying it’s easier or better - just adding some more info for those that want to learn.

Before all meals with fats (and anytime you take insulin), take L-carnitine (adding choline gives maximum absorption). This mobilizes the fats into your mitochondria, so they are not immediately stored as fat. Insulin shuttles everything, and the carbs and proteins are great to store but you don’t want to store fats obviously. L-Carnitine timed precisely will send the fats into your cells to be used as fatty acids for energy. This is great for two reasons: you are not storing fat directly (as long as you oxidize them) AND equally important, now you are not storing glycogen or aminos to be used as energy like you normally would bc fats were used. So, you now increase your total net protein turnover via less protein breakdown (as the body now prefers and has fatty acids loaded up in the mitochondria ready to bang/oxidize).

So, anytime you eat a meal with fats, use L-Carnitine before the meal and combine it with either metformin or berberine to slow the absorption of glucose for extra bang. Do just enough cardio to oxidize any fats you ate. Example: 9g calories in a gram of fat, and if you had 10g of fat in the meal it’s 90 calories to burn. So, probably 10-20 minutes of cardio is sufficient (or something like 5 minutes of HIIT… here you loaded up fatty acids in the mitochondria so HIIT isn’t going to make you catabolic… you’ll oxidize the fat before anything, just don’t over do it).

Another thing you can do as well to keep the fat off, is microdose insulin and HGh fasted in the morning with something like 300-500mg L-Carnitine w/choline. 2-3iu of insulin, and 1-2iu of HGH. Do as much cardio as your heart desires, and you’ll oxidize stored fat… not glycogen/aminos. So, it shouldn’t affect net protein turnover and turn you cataboli. Especially when on hormones and not fasted for super long times.

If you lift later in the day, instead of eating protein and carbs every 3-4 hours to keep protein synthesis going, and to provide enough glycogen to prevent catabolism…. Another strategy that is might be better in this case, is to do the protein, but don’t eat carbs. If you took L-Carnitine you shouldn’t burn any glycogen. But the plus side of doing this, is it keeps your insulin sensitivity “primed” for when it really counts. And then when it’s time for your pre- and post workout meals add those carbs in, and you’ll get more bang for your buck as far as glut4 glycogen uptake, etc.

Last thing.. I saw someone say they don’t use metformin with their post workout meal bc that’s the job of insulin. Makes sense… however, using metformin does slow down absorption significantly and it nearly prevents all of the visceral fat from insulin by slowing things down.

 

[Joltan]

Not an insulin user, but been around a while and enjoy learning about everything even if I don’t partake. So, I can’t give anecdotal info, but think I could add a few things of benefit to some. I like your approach of 2x per week… paradoxically, a lot of ‘bad’ things become good things when it’s used acutely like 1x per week. In those cases it’s because your body adapts to the stress, and overcompensates.


Here are some methods to keep fat off on insulin. Not saying it’s easier or better - just adding some more info for those that want to learn.

Before all meals with fats (and anytime you take insulin), take L-carnitine (adding choline gives maximum absorption). This mobilizes the fats into your mitochondria, so they are not immediately stored as fat. Insulin shuttles everything, and the carbs and proteins are great to store but you don’t want to store fats obviously. L-Carnitine timed precisely will send the fats into your cells to be used as fatty acids for energy. This is great for two reasons: you are not storing fat directly (as long as you oxidize them) AND equally important, now you are not storing glycogen or aminos to be used as energy like you normally would bc fats were used. So, you now increase your total net protein turnover via less protein breakdown (as the body now prefers and has fatty acids loaded up in the mitochondria ready to bang/oxidize).

So, anytime you eat a meal with fats, use L-Carnitine before the meal and combine it with either metformin or berberine to slow the absorption of glucose for extra bang. Do just enough cardio to oxidize any fats you ate. Example: 9g calories in a gram of fat, and if you had 10g of fat in the meal it’s 90 calories to burn. So, probably 10-20 minutes of cardio is sufficient (or something like 5 minutes of HIIT… here you loaded up fatty acids in the mitochondria so HIIT isn’t going to make you catabolic… you’ll oxidize the fat before anything, just don’t over do it).

Another thing you can do as well to keep the fat off, is microdose insulin and HGh fasted in the morning with something like 300-500mg L-Carnitine w/choline. 2-3iu of insulin, and 1-2iu of HGH. Do as much cardio as your heart desires, and you’ll oxidize stored fat… not glycogen/aminos. So, it shouldn’t affect net protein turnover and turn you cataboli. Especially when on hormones and not fasted for super long times.

If you lift later in the day, instead of eating protein and carbs every 3-4 hours to keep protein synthesis going, and to provide enough glycogen to prevent catabolism…. Another strategy that is might be better in this case, is to do the protein, but don’t eat carbs. If you took L-Carnitine you shouldn’t burn any glycogen. But the plus side of doing this, is it keeps your insulin sensitivity “primed” for when it really counts. And then when it’s time for your pre- and post workout meals add those carbs in, and you’ll get more bang for your buck as far as glut4 glycogen uptake, etc.

Last thing.. I saw someone say they don’t use metformin with their post workout meal bc that’s the job of insulin. Makes sense… however, using metformin does slow down absorption significantly and it nearly prevents all of the visceral fat from insulin by slowing things down.

Correction: the last sentence I stated is backwards.. the meal slows the absorption of metformin (not the other way around). Since the metformin makes insulin sensitivity even higher, theoretically it should make glucose uptake even more efficient.

 

[bbxtreme]

Not an insulin user, but been around a while and enjoy learning about everything even if I don’t partake. So, I can’t give anecdotal info, but think I could add a few things of benefit to some. I like your approach of 2x per week… paradoxically, a lot of ‘bad’ things become good things when it’s used acutely like 1x per week. In those cases it’s because your body adapts to the stress, and overcompensates.


Here are some methods to keep fat off on insulin. Not saying it’s easier or better - just adding some more info for those that want to learn.

Before all meals with fats (and anytime you take insulin), take L-carnitine (adding choline gives maximum absorption). This mobilizes the fats into your mitochondria, so they are not immediately stored as fat. Insulin shuttles everything, and the carbs and proteins are great to store but you don’t want to store fats obviously. L-Carnitine timed precisely will send the fats into your cells to be used as fatty acids for energy. This is great for two reasons: you are not storing fat directly (as long as you oxidize them) AND equally important, now you are not storing glycogen or aminos to be used as energy like you normally would bc fats were used. So, you now increase your total net protein turnover via less protein breakdown (as the body now prefers and has fatty acids loaded up in the mitochondria ready to bang/oxidize).

So, anytime you eat a meal with fats, use L-Carnitine before the meal and combine it with either metformin or berberine to slow the absorption of glucose for extra bang. Do just enough cardio to oxidize any fats you ate. Example: 9g calories in a gram of fat, and if you had 10g of fat in the meal it’s 90 calories to burn. So, probably 10-20 minutes of cardio is sufficient (or something like 5 minutes of HIIT… here you loaded up fatty acids in the mitochondria so HIIT isn’t going to make you catabolic… you’ll oxidize the fat before anything, just don’t over do it).

Another thing you can do as well to keep the fat off, is microdose insulin and HGh fasted in the morning with something like 300-500mg L-Carnitine w/choline. 2-3iu of insulin, and 1-2iu of HGH. Do as much cardio as your heart desires, and you’ll oxidize stored fat… not glycogen/aminos. So, it shouldn’t affect net protein turnover and turn you cataboli. Especially when on hormones and not fasted for super long times.

If you lift later in the day, instead of eating protein and carbs every 3-4 hours to keep protein synthesis going, and to provide enough glycogen to prevent catabolism…. Another strategy that is might be better in this case, is to do the protein, but don’t eat carbs. If you took L-Carnitine you shouldn’t burn any glycogen. But the plus side of doing this, is it keeps your insulin sensitivity “primed” for when it really counts. And then when it’s time for your pre- and post workout meals add those carbs in, and you’ll get more bang for your buck as far as glut4 glycogen uptake, etc.

Last thing.. I saw someone say they don’t use metformin with their post workout meal bc that’s the job of insulin. Makes sense… however, using metformin does slow down absorption significantly and it nearly prevents all of the visceral fat from insulin by slowing things down.

Appreciate the contribution. My personal opinion is that if someone needs metformin while using insulin then they’re doing it wrong. Additionally metformin will impact IGF levels and cause GI issues for many, so would avoid it personally.

I also agree with carnitine, but using it in injectable form prior to fasted cardio is ideal. Oral carnitine has an extremely low absorption rate so pounding grams of it with each meal would be overkill as you want to keep the focus on getting calories in.

All good suggestions overall, but remember if your diet and cardio are right then you should have minimum fat gain while using insulin as I have outlined. It’s not the insulin making people fat- it’s the food they’re abusing or eating while using it. If someone isn’t disciplined enough to use insulin with the right food sources then they have no business using it IMO. Many do and ruin their midsections permanently- to each their own.

 

[Joltan]

Agreed. I wouldn’t advise taking L-Carnitine orally either. The gut turns it into TMAO if you take orally. Plus lower absorption rate.

 

[Massivekaos]

Have never messed with insulin and not sure if I’ll ever get to the point where I’ll need to but may consider this offseason if my carbs get high enough ( and they never really get past 700g on training days in the past) when you say minimize fats and only trace fats how Minimal should fats be around that window?

I tend to like 7ounces of cooked weight chicken breast for both my pre and post workout meals with jasmine rice and some sort of fruit like pineapple.

(Rarely if time or appetite is an issue I’ll replace the chicken with 2 scoops of whey iso and 15g of all natural peanut butter since the macros are near identical)

I know the 7ounces of chicken has like 7-8g of fat depending on what macro calculator you use. Is that too much or completely fine.

 

[bbxtreme]

Have never messed with insulin and not sure if I’ll ever get to the point where I’ll need to but may consider this offseason if my carbs get high enough ( and they never really get past 700g on training days in the past) when you say minimize fats and only trace fats how Minimal should fats be around that window?

I tend to like 7ounces of cooked weight chicken breast for both my pre and post workout meals with jasmine rice and some sort of fruit like pineapple.

(Rarely if time or appetite is an issue I’ll replace the chicken with 2 scoops of whey iso and 15g of all natural peanut butter since the macros are near identical)

I know the 7ounces of chicken has like 7-8g of fat depending on what macro calculator you use. Is that too much or completely fine.

Don’t worry about trace fats. Just use lean meats and don’t add any additional fats during those windows.

Outside of PWO feel free to add fats life EVOO. Or even in your pre workout meal depending on what phase you’re in.

 

[Massivekaos]

Don’t worry about trace fats. Just use lean meats and don’t add any additional fats during those windows.

Outside of PWO feel free to add fats life EVOO. Or even in your pre workout meal depending on what phase you’re in.

Okay thanks much appreciated!