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Amino acid profile

Again if ya getting 500+ grams of protein everyday ya forget about amino acid profiles. Perhaps useful if cutting...
 
Here is the reason why

we want to use an efficient form of protein with a good amino acid profile. It is less stressful on the kidneys. The more efficient the protein source, the less we need to do the job. 500 grams is asking for kidney problems, no matter how much water we drink.
 
Phil

I still don't buy into the (what I call a myth) of high consumption of protein to be hard on your kidneys. There is a brief statement about this in an issue of Muscular Development that one of their Dr's had.
Unless a person has an existing problem with their kidneys, then I don't think it causes "too" much stress.
I believe it was Dr Colkers column? He says there is no medical literature backing this statement.
Not that Dr's know everything, but it appears as though he has been thru the rigors of BB and has a Medical background.
Just my opinions though.
 
Re: Here is the reason why

PHIL HERNON said:
we want to use an efficient form of protein with a good amino acid profile. It is less stressful on the kidneys. The more efficient the protein source, the less we need to do the job. 500 grams is asking for kidney problems, no matter how much water we drink.

Phill, I maybe mistaken, but have you worked with Doggcrapp? Regardless he has post many references showing the high protein intake and kidney stress to be a myth.
 
Actually

No one can say what is too much protein. I think it varies from individual to individual, but 500 just sounds like a lot, doesnt it? Hahhahaahaha
 
Talk to Insynct.

Bro what you putting down a day? A kilo?
 
DoggCrapp put this in the pennies thread:

"To date there is no published evidence that a high protein diet produces any negative effect on metabolism in bodybuilders or any other type of athletes.

Recently, a comprehensive study completed by Jacques Poortmans and Oliver Dellalieux (published in Int. J. Sport Nutr. & Exerc. Metab. 11;28-35:2001) at the University of Brussels in Belgium investigated this aspect directly.

These scientists assessed whether high protein diets affect the health and kidney function of bodybuilders and other athletes. Their study involved 20 bodybuilders and 18 other highly trained athletes that consumed a high protein diet. (Approximately 2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day. More than double the recommended daily allowance.)

Their diets were analyzed to provide total calorie, protein, fat, carbohydrate, and calcium intake each day. Blood and urine samples were taken from the athletes and spectrum of analyses were performed looking at glomerular filtration rate (creatinine clearance), potential change in glomerular membrane permeability (albumin excretion rate), urea and uric acid clearance, nitrogen and calcium balances and any modification in kidney free water balance.

In addition to the resting condition, the researchers also wanted to obtain other data that would be important to hard training athletes. Very intense exercise temporarily impairs kidney function (a natural, safe, and regular process). However, the research wanted to see if a high protein diet would produce a detrimental impact on this physiological aspect. So analyses were performed before and directly after a bout of very intense (cycling) exercise.

Some of the athlete's in the study were documented to have protein intakes as high as 2.8 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. However, when the results came in, the high protein athletes showed no fundamental differences that could be associated with damage or impaired kidney function in any way.

These athletes did show higher values for creatinine and uric acid clearance, However, all readings fell within the upper limit of normal levels. Despite the high protein intake there was no accumulation of urea, demonstrating no toxicity. Glomerular filtration rates were normal and there were no signs of even moderate hyperfiltration. This aspect is important.

Hyperfiltration seems to precede the excess excretion of protein plasma into the urine. It is an indicator of the amount of "stress" on the kidneys. The albumin clearance rates also supported the observation that a high protein diet does not stress healthy kidneys. In fact, all readings taken from these athletes proved absolutely normal. Their kidney function was in no way effected by a high protein diet.

The combination of high protein intake and intense exercise didn't appear to impair any aspect of kidney function either. The reduction of several clearance rates as a result of the intense exercise were in line with other reported observations in exercising humans.
The scientists responsible for this research concluded that high protein intakes of 170 to 243% of the RDA show no toxicity, dehydration, calcium loss or impairment of kidney function. Also, the researchers cautioned that some of the upper-end clearance ranges of some clinical markers witnessed in this study are not solely related to a high protein diet as many other individual differences play a big part in this regard.

The researchers concluded and recommended that high protein diets should not be used as an "escape goat" to explain these variations. "
 
and this:

In a recent review paper on the subject one of the top researchers in the field (Dr. Peter Lemon) states "...These data suggest that the RDA for those engaged in regular endurance exercise should be about 1.2-1.4 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass (150%-175% of the current RDA) and 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein/kilogram of body mass per day (212%-225% of the current RDA) for strength exercisers."

DOGGCRAPP; read the studies by Dr peter lemon--he has been doing research on high protein consumption for over a decade

also by will brink--Myth #2 "High protein diets are bad for you"

So the average person reads the above information on the protein needs and benefits of a high protein diet but remembers in the back of their mind another myth about high protein intakes. "I thought high protein diets are bad for the kidneys and will give you osteoporosis! " they exclaim with conviction and indignation. So what are the medical facts behind these claims and why do so many people, including some medical professionals and nutritionists, still believe it? For starters, the negative health claims of the high protein diet on kidney function is based on information gathered from people who have preexisting kidney problems. You see one of the jobs of the kidneys is the excretion of urea (generally a non toxic compound) that is formed from ammonia (a very toxic compound) which comes from the protein in our diets. People with serious kidney problems have trouble excreting the urea placing more stress on the kidneys and so the logic goes that a high protein diet must be hard on the kidneys for healthy athletes also. Now for the medical and scientific facts. There is not a single scientific study published in a reputable peer - reviewed journal using healthy adults with normal kidney function that has shown any kidney dysfunction what so ever from a high protein diet. Not one of the studies done with healthy athletes that I mentioned above, or other research I have read, has shown any kidney abnormalities at all. Furthermore, animals studies done using high protein diets also fail to show any kidney dysfunction in healthy animals. Now don't forget, in the real world, where millions of athletes have been following high protein diets for decades, there has never been a case of kidney failure in a healthy athlete that was determined to have been caused solely by a high protein diet. If the high protein diet was indeed putting undo stress on our kidneys, we would have seen many cases of kidney abnormalities, but we don't nor will we. From a personal perspective as a trainer for many top athletes from various sports, I have known bodybuilders eating considerably more than the above research recommends (above 600 grams a day) who showed no kidney dysfunction or kidney problems and I personally read the damn blood tests! Bottom line? 1-1.5 grams or protein per pound of bodyweight will have absolutely no ill effects on the kidney function of a healthy athlete, period. Now of course too much of anything can be harmful and I suppose it's possible a healthy person could eat enough protein over a long enough period of time to effect kidney function, but it is very unlikely and has yet to be shown in the scientific literature in healthy athletes.

So what about the osteoporosis claim? That's a bit more complicated but the conclusion is the same. The pathology of osteoporosis involves a combination of many risk factors and physiological variables such as macro nutrient intakes (carbs, proteins, fats), micro nutrient intakes (vitamins, minerals, etc), hormonal profiles, lack of exercise, gender, family history, and a few others. The theory is that high protein intakes raise the acidity of the blood and the body must use minerals from bone stores to "buffer" the blood and bring the blood acidity down, thus depleting one's bones of minerals. Even if there was a clear link between a high protein diet and osteoporosis in all populations (and there is not) athletes have few of the above risk factors as they tend to get plenty of exercise, calories, minerals, vitamins, and have positive hormonal profiles. Fact of the matter is, studies have shown athletes to have denser bones than sedentary people, there are millions of athletes who follow high protein diets without any signs of premature bone loss, and we don't have ex athletes who are now older with higher rates of osteoporosis. In fact, one recent study showed women receiving extra protein from a protein supplement had increased bone density over a group not getting the extra protein! The researchers theorized this was due to an increase in IGF-1 levels which are known to be involved in bone growth. Would I recommend a super high protein diet to some sedentary post menopausal woman? Probably not, but we are not talking about her, we are talking about athletes. Bottom line? A high protein diet does not lead to osteoporosis in healthy athletes with very few risk factors for this affliction, especially in the ranges of protein intake that have been discussed throughout this article.


Another group of researchers in the field of protein metabolism have come to similar conclusions repeatedly. They found that strength training athletes eating approximately the RDA/RNI for protein showed a decreased whole body protein synthesis (losing muscle jack!) on a protein intake of 0.86 grams per kilogram of bodyweight. They came to an almost identical conclusion as that of Dr. Lemon in recommending at least 1.76g per kilogram of bodyweight per day for strength training athletes for staying in positive nitrogen balance/increases in whole body protein synthesis. "
 
Finally:

" AND LASTLY 2. There is evidence (see papers by Peter Lemon) that intense activity may increase protein requirements in order to maintain a positive nitrogen balance and avoid the loss of lean muscle tissue. The most recent requirements for athletes in intensive training (a term which requires definition as it may be that some threshold may exist for when additional protein above the RDA of .8 g/kg bodyweight is required) are: Strength athletes: 1.8 g/kg bodyweight and I've seen up to 2g/kg suggested as possible more effective. Data from Tarnpolosky with European athletes shows that massive protein intakes of up to 3.5 g/kg further increase lean mass gains. In the early 1970’s, a study of weightlifters showed that these athletes needed at least 2.2 gr/kg. Two decades later Russian research demonstrated better muscle increases with 4.2 gr/kg.

Doggcrapp: Tarnpolosky trained with natural and sauced athletes and noted that every athlete was gaining at advanced rates from the higher figures than the lower 1.8 or so---Dehydration is the main culprit people must watch out for on high protein diets but anyone who is a bodybuilder who is drinking less than a gallon a day is cheating himself already "
 
Do you realize

That the grams of protein in this study ingested by these individuals was around 250-300 grams per day? That is a lot different then 500 grams per day.
 
Yea about half. But I know a handful of bro's that are in this 500+ range and have been for a while without any problems, just unreal recovery. One of the best changes that DC beat in my head was 30gms pre, 100gms post.

But hey its your body do what works for you.
 
Phil OT, you have your pro card? Just wondering, thought you posted that recently...
 
The problem is

That nobody really knows what works for them. How many guys come on here asking questions about what they are taking and if we get the same results? I see cycle after cycle printed on here from guys asking, "does this sound ok"? Yes, you may be able to eat 500 grams per day, but for how long? DO you know when you are dehydrated? Once the kidneys are scarred from hyperfiltration, you have kidney disease and now you really cant eat a lot of protein and your career is over.
 
Then

What good is a pro card? Ask Flex, Mike Francois, Don Long,Curtis Loeffler, guys I grew up with in this sport. Never mortgage your future for this sport, but, its your body to do what works for you.
 
True, true. But one last word the 500+ range is rougly7-8 months per year.
 
So Phil, what would you suggest? What about something like 300g of protein throughout the day with 5g of a quality amino with each meal. Something like Beverly Mass. This would fulfill the requirements on all sides I would think.
 
Ignore Phil as he doesnt know what he is talking about and eat your 400-500gm of protein a day.

J/K Phil, actually I just read a post of Doggcrapp's keeping you in high regards.

But that being said Mr. 666 I see you in both forums so you know DC knows his shit. In the opening of the famous C-O-P thread he goes into protein intake and studies backing his claims.

And I can tell you although I never was a client of his (yet), his suggestions on diet and training protocol has taken me to levels I thought were impossible w/o steroids.
 
Brook, I definitely agree with you on the point of high protein intake = incredible gains. I do share Phil's concern over how long that is healthy for. You stated earlier that basically it is only high protein for 7-8 months out of the yr, but what if someone's threshold was reached at month 5? That would mean 2-3 extra months overloading and possibly scarring their kidneys. We could look at everyone else as the control group and use the people trained by DC as the experiment, but how long have most people pushed there protein that high? Months, Years? I'm really curious. I think we are all just looking for a happy medium between keeping our health and incredible gains, much like DC does with his "cruising". If you can relay any of this to him and get his insite it would be great. Thanks. By the way, how is the recovery coming? Still kicking ass in the gym? Stay safe.
 
This what works for me

Now like i have stated above, this has been working well for me. Bottom line is, everyone needs to experiment and see what is best for them.

Anyhow i tend to go 12 weeks at 2-2.5g of protien per lbs, and tons of carbs as well, then drop the protien intake down to 1.2-1.5 g per lbs and keep carbs high for another 4-6 weeks, then adjust carbs depending on my goals at time, or watch protien intake back up. I think cycling the exstream high intake with moderate/maintance peroids is good idea to stay heathly, especially for 90% of us who will never make a cent from sport, just and $$$ hobby.
 

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