Anabolic Round Table Debate - Thoughts on VigrousSteve's Steroid/Peptide/Fat Burner Tier List? (ft. Dr Dean & Kurt Havens)

[Serotoninskeptic]

Wanted to open up a debate to get the community's thoughts/opinions on VigorousSteve's ranking of various steroids, peptides, and fat burners. (What do you agree with? disagree with? what would you change? etc.)

These videos have been out for around a year now, but still always interesting to look back on and get different perspectives.

 

[Siggy]

Im not sure how or why proviron would be in the same tier as Dbol. One of them is an actual proven anabolic agent and excellent preworkout, the other one is a cosmetic drug with no (for most people) anabolic properties whatsoever

 

[pistonpump]

These list look stupid. I don't really find his information useful and not a fan of the guy. Once u have a following and youre on the algorithm you just keep making content because it makes you money but come out with something original. Everyone makes PED videos it's just like when do u just do something original with your content. Go do an eating challenge for Christ sake

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Im not sure how or why proviron would be in the same tier as Dbol. One of them is an actual proven anabolic agent and excellent preworkout, the other one is a cosmetic drug with no (for most people) anabolic properties whatsoever

He explains everything.

Without rewatching, it’s probably because proviron isn’t really that useful as a standalone, and dbol isn’t really useful unless you literally can’t get anything else.

He gives reasoning for all the topics he discusses, and is one of the few guys who participates in lengthy conversations based on science and real world evidence.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

These list look stupid. I don't really find his information useful and not a fan of the guy. Once u have a following and youre on the algorithm you just keep making content because it makes you money but come out with something original. Everyone makes PED videos it's just like when do u just do something original with your content. Go do an eating challenge for Christ sake

Can you be specific about what’s stupid and what he said wasn’t useful?

He’s been making videos for a really long time. If anything, people are more likely trying to copy him versus the other way around.

It’d be less wise to take advice from 95% of the board members here who’ve never been real bodybuilders and hide behind pseudonyms so as to not be outed.

Yes, he makes money… but not from lying to or deceiving people. He gives free advice that mostly benefits the viewer.

 

[pistonpump]

The lists don't even look like they make sense. U have tadalifiland humalog on a list for fat burners? The orals list looks incomplete. Deca is D tier?

He's always talking pharma, like most guys are really buying pharma. Seems more like he likes to flex that he has pharma.

I much rather take advice from someone who has lived bodybuilding and has won comps etc. I didn't say people aren't copying him. That's the thing people watch a vigorous Steve vid and think they know everything about peds. I do get he uses studies alot I just don't care for his content personally. Didn't say it wouldn't help some people but not my cup of tea

 

[dantes]

I don’t really have a major issue with the list although I think EQ should be ranked higher. Other than that I can see the general logic

 

[tommyguns2]

I think Vigorous Steve puts out a ton of excellent content. His deep dives on various compounds are extremely thorough, and he's not afraid to say, "I don't know" when he doesn't know.

His style is not my favorite, as he talks kinda fast, and sometimes I feel like I'm missing stuff and having to rewind. And he'll sometimes go off topic and start throwing F-bombs all over the place. That's just my own personal pet-peeve, but it doesn't take away from the substantive info he's bringing.

He's one of the better content generators for AAS and ancillaries IMO.

 

[BALDNAZI]

You want the fat burner tier list?

RETA, MOTS-C, SLU-PP-332

Take enough of all 3 and your bodyfat is gone.

You're welcome.

Signed,
Vigorous Nazi

 

[Serotoninskeptic]

The lists don't even look like they make sense. U have tadalifiland humalog on a list for fat burners? The orals list looks incomplete. Deca is D tier?

He's always talking pharma, like most guys are really buying pharma. Seems more like he likes to flex that he has pharma.

I much rather take advice from someone who has lived bodybuilding and has won comps etc. I didn't say people aren't copying him. That's the thing people watch a vigorous Steve vid and think they know everything about peds. I do get he uses studies alot I just don't care for his content personally. Didn't say it wouldn't help some people but not my cup of tea

I think he was referring to using Humalog pre-fasted cardio. The theory behind it is to lower blood glucose levels during cardio, thus forcing Glucagon secretion to liberate glycogen and fatty acids from the fat reserves/liver.

Never tried it myself and don't plan to, but I’ve heard this protocol was popular in the 90s.

 

[gib68sg]

You want the fat burner tier list?

RETA, MOTS-C, SLU-PP-332

Take enough of all 3 and your bodyfat is gone.

You're welcome.

Signed,
Vigorous Nazi

I’m gonna give Reta a go once I get the all clear from my cardiologist to restart training and whatnot. Albeit at a very low dose, mostly for the other benefits with the addition of fat loss. I have 100’s of mg of the stuff for me and the lady that we got from overseas and I can’t use it yet lol.

Having used tirz and sema, believe it or not (for me) the absolute best glp I ever used was liraglutide. I got an online doc to write a script for a few months until I didn’t wanna follow up anymore and the fat was melting off of me. Price wise it isn’t worth it to go the peptide route at doses needed, but I’d be interested in trying it again. I wonder if it was just luck of the draw that it was the first one I ever used?

 

[Siggy]

The lists don't even look like they make sense. U have tadalifiland humalog on a list for fat burners? The orals list looks incomplete. Deca is D tier?

He's always talking pharma, like most guys are really buying pharma. Seems more like he likes to flex that he has pharma.

I much rather take advice from someone who has lived bodybuilding and has won comps etc. I didn't say people aren't copying him. That's the thing people watch a vigorous Steve vid and think they know everything about peds. I do get he uses studies alot I just don't care for his content personally. Didn't say it wouldn't help some people but not my cup of tea

He comes across as a know it all and most of the time it sounds like hes reading off a wiki page. I stopped watching his vids long ago.

 

[Zamun]

Steve is a dumbass with mental issues. BRB i “feel” 5mg of tren.

 

[qbkilla]

He comes across as a know it all and most of the time it sounds like hes reading off a wiki page. I stopped watching his vids long ago.

This...I think i tried watching him once and couldn't stand him...he spent 5 minutes reading off Wikipedia..didn't care to listen any longer hoping he would provide any real value.

 

[Big Dave Smith]

Some of the responses above are why very few real bodybuilders post here… and why the biggest voices are hidden behind screen names, clinging on to the few photos they have of the one time they got jacked a few years ago.

Steve actually had a good physique, and still does. He chose not to go further.

He thoroughly researches with actual studies, digs further than anyone else would go, and has done endless experiments on himself.

It’s just wild how quick people are to justify disliking someone on virtually no grounds whatsoever.

It’s cool though, BigNuts69 and FuttBucker11 have pics from 2013 when they slammed 900mg Deca and 1.5g test. Sure, they had a hematocrit higher than the speed limit on I-95, but let’s listen to those guys because they’re the true OG’s. These new guys think just because they did book learning and got their grade 12, they own this trailer park. Nope. All that crap is just shit.

 

[hawkmoon]

These are all opinions, and Steve is free to have them. I'm also not a fan of the chart method, but it gets clicks.
VS for the most part does his homework so I usually take what he says at face value and likely well-founded. I'll dig deeper into it if I feel the need to.

I may personally disagree with some stuff there, but it depends on perspective.
For example in the injectable chart he has trenbolone at the top and deca further down, I'd reverse that - but it depends on what your needs are.

On the pharma vs generic GH - we can debate that until the heat death of the universe. Unless we can test both in exactly the same conditions, user blinded, we will never know.
I know I am perfectly comfortable with using only generics. I personally think GH is overrated for direct muscle growth anyway.

 

[qbkilla]

Some of the responses above are why very few real bodybuilders post here… and why the biggest voices are hidden behind screen names, clinging on to the few photos they have of the one time they got jacked a few years ago.

Steve actually had a good physique, and still does. He chose not to go further.

He thoroughly researches with actual studies, digs further than anyone else would go, and has done endless experiments on himself.

It’s just wild how quick people are to justify disliking someone on virtually no grounds whatsoever.

It’s cool though, BigNuts69 and FuttBucker11 have pics from 2013 when they slammed 900mg Deca and 1.5g test. Sure, they had a hematocrit higher than the speed limit on I-95, but let’s listen to those guys because they’re the true OG’s. These new guys think just because they did book learning and got their grade 12, they own this trailer park. Nope. All that crap is just shit.

If your referring to me, I don't know anything about him, his physique, his knowledge, nor do I care.

He is a content creator. He provides a good/service (content),im assuming for clicks/$$. So basically a business.

People are free to review and give an opinion on his good/service, negative or positive. No qualifications or justification is needed, there are no rules or unwritten rules (to my knowledge) on reviewing or giving an opinion of a guy who makes youtube videos.

Its no different than me saying "I went to smoothie king today, bought a smoothie, took a sip and tossed it won't go there again. "
People saying they don't like a dudes videos isn't a big deal, an attack on him, his physique, his family, hatred, anger or slander. Its simply an opinion on the quality of his videos. It doesn't have to be deep or personal like you think it is.

 

[Serotoninskeptic]

These are all opinions, and Steve is free to have them. I'm also not a fan of the chart method, but it gets clicks.
VS for the most part does his homework so I usually take what he says at face value and likely well-founded. I'll dig deeper into it if I feel the need to.

I may personally disagree with some stuff there, but it depends on perspective.
For example in the injectable chart he has trenbolone at the top and deca further down, I'd reverse that - but it depends on what your needs are.

On the pharma vs generic GH - we can debate that until the heat death of the universe. Unless we can test both in exactly the same conditions, user blinded, we will never know.
I know I am perfectly comfortable with using only generics. I personally think GH is overrated for direct muscle growth anyway.

Personally I feel that there are more reasonable use cases for tren than nandrolone. But, like most things its completely individual. I see where you’re coming from if you tolerate Deca better. On the contrary, I tolerate tren better than most people.

I also think GH is not potent at directly stimulating muscle growth, at least on its own. Yes, it preserves lean tissue + alters cosmetic appearance but it will NOT directly drive hypertrophy in a surplus. If its used alongside exogenous insulin however, thats a whole different story. I think that’s when it truly shines for growth.

 

[thethinker48]

If you have anxiety, half the fat burner list can be deleted lol

 

[Serotoninskeptic]

You want the fat burner tier list?

RETA, MOTS-C, SLU-PP-332

Take enough of all 3 and your bodyfat is gone.

You're welcome.

Signed,
Vigorous Nazi

The real fat burner tier list:

Calorie deficit + Cardio.

But that doesnt get clicks, people dont wanna hear that