Anabolic Steroid Abuse and the cardiovascular system

[maldorf]

This study talks about what I have been relaying on here. If you look at #3 in this abstract you see mention of the clotting cascade I am talking about. Increased chance of blood clot is a real danger here, among the other risks like cardiomyopathy. The clotting cascade is quite complex. Anyhow, thought I would post this up.

Vanberg P. Androgenic anabolic steroid abuse and the cardiovascular system. Handb Exp Pharmacol :411 (2010)

 

[toby99]

Interesting do you think a simple EKG would pic up that problem if it did exist ?

 

[maldorf]

Interesting do you think a simple EKG would pic up that problem if it did exist ?

Not the problem I am talking about, clotting. It would show up if you presently had a clot, but only then. The only way to know is run a blood test called a coagulation panel and then follow up with DNA tests if its called for.

There is no other test you could run that would show. A lot of these heart conditions wont show up on EKGs, and they dont work as a catch all. You have to run at least an echocardiogram to show whats going on in the heart. To me an echo is much better. You can have a perfectly normal EKG, I did except for one little thing and the thing I had could have been normal, and then go in for an echocardiogram and see you have cardiomyopathy!

 

[maldorf]

Bump

Good short article here that summarizes it all. Just page down the small paper on the right side of the screen. Looks like you can order the complete paper if you like.

 

[kscowboy]

Maldorf-Do you think USE=ABUSE or are they referring to major long term abuse?

 

[maldorf]

Maldorf-Do you think USE=ABUSE or are they referring to major long term abuse?

No way of knowing since there has never really been a good study of it. I will post another study I found though, a small case study, where some of the drugs the guys were using was known.

I know from my personal experience that I got my blood clot when I was crusing on about 350 mg/wk test cyp and then had just run 750 mg test for 1 week and started 250 mg/wk deca. thats all I was on, so at the time it was about 1 gram/week and id only been on that for 1 week so total levels hadnt built up yet. I think it was the cruising the screwed me, but thats just my opinion.

 

[maldorf]

Good study here

Here is a link to that case study that is very revealing on the subject. A great read with a lot of details.

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/58083-excellent-case-study-4-bodybuilders-using-steroids-many-years.html

 

[ssdark1]

Maldorf-Do you think USE=ABUSE or are they referring to major long term abuse?

im not maldorf but i think he would agree that use CAN equal abuse depending on the person. some people can experience sides such as elevated hemoglobin levels from 2-300 mgs of test a week. other people, like buselmo, seem to have no ill effects from some moderate to heavy cycles in terms of amount and length. all you can do is be informed, make your decision, and put health as a priority.

 

[maldorf]

im not maldorf but i think he would agree that use CAN equal abuse depending on the person. some people can experience sides such as elevated hemoglobin levels from 2-300 mgs of test a week. other people, like buselmo, seem to have no ill effects from some moderate to heavy cycles in terms of amount and length. all you can do is be informed, make your decision, and put health as a priority.

Yes, i think gentic traits that you have will determine how much you can use safely. Of course there is a certain level of usage that no matter how good your genes are that its still going to be a great risk.
The big question for all the users is "what is my risk level, how much can I personally use and be ok?" For the most part I think if you chose to use, you must start out low dose and add just one compound at a time and stick with that so that you can pin any sides on that one change. If you go changing more than one thing at a time then you have no idea what caused the trouble. Of course any use at all is going to increase your risks, even if that risk is minute. Is it all worth it? If you ask me I will tell you no.

 

[comedycentral]

what about the short 6-8 cycle approach.

when i first started using (mid 90's) everyne in the UK seemed to just run a short medium dose course for about 5-8 weeks and then come off for several weeks if not a few months. then when your gains were starting to disappear you would go back on.

would you say this is a safer option..i.e. giving the body some abuse but then allowing it to heal up as it were.

i remember paul borreson saying he felt that AAS was no different to alcohol.

he felt that it was safer to be the equivilent of the guy that would go out on a weekend drinking session then not touch a drop for a couple of weeks before going and getting drunk again as opposed to the alcoholic who would just have some drink every day and never letting the body rest

 

[maldorf]

what about the short 6-8 cycle approach.

when i first started using (mid 90's) everyne in the UK seemed to just run a short medium dose course for about 5-8 weeks and then come off for several weeks if not a few months. then when your gains were starting to disappear you would go back on.

would you say this is a safer option..i.e. giving the body some abuse but then allowing it to heal up as it were.

i remember paul borreson saying he felt that AAS was no different to alcohol.

he felt that it was safer to be the equivilent of the guy that would go out on a weekend drinking session then not touch a drop for a couple of weeks before going and getting drunk again as opposed to the alcoholic who would just have some drink every day and never letting the body rest

I agree with this approach. I would not though condone the doses the Borrenson was calling for. I tried the short cycle approach for about a year and had ok results from that. The main thing is that you need to get off long enough for your body to recover and then some, and the problem with that is that by the time that happens you have already regressed to the point where you have lost most of the gains that you put on while on cycle. So what happens is you have guys either staying off for a really short time or guys cruising and being on all year long.

 

[aqrojase]

What about taking all your precautions while cycling? For example 6000mg epa/dha fish oil per day, 400mg coq10, baby asprin, 1500mg hawothorne berry, 15000 iu vitamin d and blood pressure med.

Would these help lower your risks? or it's pointless to take them?

 

[maldorf]

What about taking all your precautions while cycling? For example 6000mg epa/dha fish oil per day, 400mg coq10, baby asprin, 1500mg hawothorne berry, 15000 iu vitamin d and blood pressure med.

Would these help lower your risks? or it's pointless to take them?

Those all help IMO, but I was on the fish oil and blood pressure meds when I had my clot. I was also taking baby aspirin too. There are so many things that can go wrong in your body that there is noway in hell you can stop them all. All you can do is do the most you can do and hope for the best. If youre going to play with high doses over a lenghty timespan you are going to experience a risk.
If youre playing this game though you gotta medicate or supplement to help take care of the sides you are aware of. If you have high blood pressure you sure as hell better see a doc and get on some meds. The problem is there are changes that are going on inside your body, many at the cellular level, that no test can detect and then you only find out about it after the fact, after you have your heart attack or emolisim etc.

 

[ballennonstop]

Mal, how do you feel about low dose GH (<3iu/day) and its long term cardiovascular impacts? Without AAS..

If I recall correctly, you felt like GH was as big of a culprit as AAS abuse..

 

[aqrojase]

Those all help IMO, but I was on the fish oil and blood pressure meds when I had my clot. I was also taking baby aspirin too. There are so many things that can go wrong in your body that there is noway in hell you can stop them all. All you can do is do the most you can do and hope for the best. If youre going to play with high doses over a lenghty timespan you are going to experience a risk.
If youre playing this game though you gotta medicate or supplement to help take care of the sides you are aware of. If you have high blood pressure you sure as hell better see a doc and get on some meds. The problem is there are changes that are going on inside your body, many at the cellular level, that no test can detect and then you only find out about it after the fact, after you have your heart attack or emolisim etc.

Thanks for the input. I have been taking everything i can to help with the side effects. I am going to keep my dosages under 1250 total, and play the game with caution.

 

[aphextwin]

HGH use with AAS

I am curious to see if you think using high doses of HGH might have contributed to heart attack...

 

[ssdark1]

Thanks for the input. I have been taking everything i can to help with the side effects. I am going to keep my dosages under 1250 total, and play the game with caution.

IMO, 1250 mgs total a week isnt exactly playing the game with caution.

 

[get it in ya]

i think its mostly genetics. of course there is risk, we all know that. if the risk scares you then dont do it. i have a friend who had a heart attack last summer. 29 years old, 6 stints in his heart. yes he was juicing but i think it was a bunch of shit that did him in and mostly genetics. he was one of those genetic freaks, he looked at a bottle and grew. he never did alot of aas, maybe 600 test 450 eq here and there. he smoked, took 8 pain killers a day, steroids, not eating right, not sleeping right. his dad had a stint in his heart and his grandfather died from a heart attack. it was a bunch of shit that did it but genetics played a huge role. i think most of us at least know a few people that have been on for over a decade. i once ran 1000 of test and 600 deca and other stuff mixed in for 6 years strait. i am a type 1 diabetic so i'm at alot more risk. my blood work was not perfect but nothing to bad. of course the meds helped. blood pressure and cholesterol meds. what i'm trying to say is its alot to do with genetics. if you have family history of heart problems or health problems and you add a lot of aas for many years no doubt there is alot bigger risk

 

[maldorf]

Mal, how do you feel about low dose GH (<3iu/day) and its long term cardiovascular impacts? Without AAS..

If I recall correctly, you felt like GH was as big of a culprit as AAS abuse..

Ive got no idea on that and havent seen any research on it. I do know though that really high doses would be a risk for heart disease considering the fact that people that have giantism all experience some form of heart failure and then death at a premature age usually heart related. GH makes all sorts of cells grow, not just skeletal muscle. One could argue though that if you use an amount that will put you in the normal to high normal range that this would be healthy, just like HRT can be. I believe this is very important as you age. Guys taking mega doses of GH though,IMO, are asking for heart problems later on.

 

[maldorf]

I am curious to see if you think using high doses of HGH might have contributed to heart attack...

my heart attack, no. I had a blood clot and I dont think GH can cause that. I think if GH were to cause heart trouble it would be a long process that takes years. GH could cause cardiomyopathy because the heart becomes enlarged and cannot function properly as seen in people like Andre the Giant (giantism). I took GH for a little over 1 year straight, dose average around 5IU/day.