Anabolic steroids and cardiac muscle

[NEMSZ]

Good look here, very balanced view of the subject. Talks about how there is limited scientific evidence linking AAS directly to heart problems. It is the nature of the issue that makes it hard to have a true scientific study. I wonder if anyone has run a good study on rats. Id like to see that.

the study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827559/

This is like what happend to me. From this study:

"The risk of sudden death from cardiovascular complications in the athlete consuming anabolic steroids can occur in the absence of atherosclerosis. Thrombus formation has been reported in several case studies of bodybuilders self-administering anabolic steroids (Ferenchick, 1991; Fineschi et al., 2001; McCarthy et al., 2000; Sahraian et al., 2004). Melchert and Welder, 1995 have suggested that the use of 17α-alkylated steroids (primarily from oral ingestion) likely present the highest risk for thrombus formation. They hypothesized that anabolic steroid consumption can elevate platelet aggregation, possibly through an increase in platelet production of thromboxane A 2 and/or decreasing platelet production of prostaglandin PgI 2, resulting in a hypercoagulable state."

I had no atherosclerosis.

Just added this, looks like rat studies have taken place and show LV hypertrophy and heart problems:

"Left ventricular function and anabolic steroid use/abuse has been examined. Climstein and colleagues (2003) demonstrated that highly strength-trained athletes, with no history of anabolic steroid use exhibited a higher incidence of wave form abnormalities relative to recreationally-trained or sedentary individuals. However, when these athletes self-administered anabolic steroids, a higher percentage of wave form abnormalities were exhibited. Further evidence suggestive of left ventricular dysfunction has been reported in rodent models. A study on rats has shown that 8 weeks of testosterone administration increased left ventricle stiffness and caused a reduction in stroke volume and cardiac performance" It goes on to explain some problems with this study however.

You had no atherosclerosis but you did have some plaque build up, no?

And I remember you said your Hematocrit was around 62 in the months before the attack but got it down to a better range by donating although there’s been things posted showing evidence that a hematocrit rebound can occur when donating (someone correct me if I’m wrong on that) and do you remember what your platelet count was? Since the first paragraph talks about platelets increasing and causing a “hypercoagulable state.”

 

[Gizmo]

You had no atherosclerosis but you did have some plaque build up, no?

And I remember you said your Hematocrit was around 62 in the months before the attack but got it down to a better range by donating although there’s been things posted showing evidence that a hematocrit rebound can occur when donating (someone correct me if I’m wrong on that) and do you remember what your platelet count was? Since the first paragraph talks about platelets increasing and causing a “hypercoagulable state.”

Don’t forget, Maldorf also has a clotting disorder (Factor II) which makes clots even more likely.

 

[maldorf]

You had no atherosclerosis but you did have some plaque build up, no?

And I remember you said your Hematocrit was around 62 in the months before the attack but got it down to a better range by donating although there’s been things posted showing evidence that a hematocrit rebound can occur when donating (someone correct me if I’m wrong on that) and do you remember what your platelet count was? Since the first paragraph talks about platelets increasing and causing a “hypercoagulable state.”

I didn't have any appreciable plaque, but there probably had to be a small amount that probably most guys my age would have had. Probably more than I should have since I was using AAS. My arteries though were wide open and I didn't need even 1 stent. I did find out later I have factor 2 clotting disorder though, so that certainly didn't help. My hemoglobin was down to about 15 or so when I had the heart attack. So hematocrit would have been around 45 or so. Im not sure about what my platelets were at, but about 2 weeks prior they were normal.

 

[maldorf]

Don’t forget, Maldorf also has a clotting disorder (Factor II) which makes clots even more likely.

I and my doctors think it was the combination of the disorder and the steroids that did it. Think of the steroids as being the fuel and the disorder as a spark, or vice versa. I got away with doing it for about 10 years, no problems and then BAM. Ive mentioned that I had the rest of my family get tested after I found out I had it. My mother and uncle both have the disorder and they are 80 and 83 years old and never had a problem. My uncle used to lift weights some, but not like me. Neither of course ever used steroids.

There are bodybuilders out there dropping dead from heart attacks that don't have a clotting disorder though. We lost a guy with the screen name Chris here to a clot as well as a mod. That's just two I think of right now.

IMO heart attack is the biggest major risk from taking steroids. Other problems of course exist too.

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

I didn't have any appreciable plaque, but there probably had to be a small amount that probably most guys my age would have had. Probably more than I should have since I was using AAS. My arteries though were wide open and I didn't need even 1 stent. I did find out later I have factor 2 clotting disorder though, so that certainly didn't help. My hemoglobin was down to about 15 or so when I had the heart attack. So hematocrit would have been around 45 or so. Im not sure about what my platelets were at, but about 2 weeks prior they were normal.

Are you saying you have a Prothrombin G20210A thrombophilic gene mutation which is pretty damn rare in the U.S. population with a prevalence < 1-2%? Also, Hb of 15 is perfectly normal and you are correct in stating that your HCT would have been ~45. Simple and highly useful clinical "trick" to estimate Hb/HCT: Hb level x 3 = HCT (+/- 0.5)

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

I and my doctors think it was the combination of the disorder and the steroids that did it. Think of the steroids as being the fuel and the disorder as a spark, or vice versa. I got away with doing it for about 10 years, no problems and then BAM. Ive mentioned that I had the rest of my family get tested after I found out I had it. My mother and uncle both have the disorder and they are 80 and 83 years old and never had a problem. My uncle used to lift weights some, but not like me. Neither of course ever used steroids.

There are bodybuilders out there dropping dead from heart attacks that don't have a clotting disorder though. We lost a guy with the screen name Chris here to a clot as well as a mod. That's just two I think of right now.

IMO heart attack is the biggest major risk from taking steroids. Other problems of course exist too.

Heart disease is our biggest major risk factor for mortality with or without AAS. Think about that. :lightbulb:

 

[maldorf]

Are you saying you have a Prothrombin G20210A thrombophilic gene mutation which is pretty damn rare in the U.S. population with a prevalence < 1-2%? Also, Hb of 15 is perfectly normal and you are correct in stating that your HCT would have been ~45. Simple and highly useful clinical "trick" to estimate Hb/HCT: Hb level x 3 = HCT (+/- 0.5)

Yes. I estimated the hematocrit from the HGB. I measured the HGB on my own with a meter I purchased.

From what Ive seen online, that is about 2% of the population, if you are Caucasian. Other races have a much lower chance from what I read. There are going to be people that say, well there ya go! He had a clotting disorder. It is also important to keep in mind that I am the first person in the family to ever have this happen. We didn't even know it was in the family. Usually nothing happens with the disorder.

People without clotting disorders still have clots though. Many causes for those.

 

[maldorf]

Heart disease is our biggest major risk factor for mortality with or without AAS. Think about that. :lightbulb:

This is true. Is it normal though for a 26 year old man to have a massive heart attack and a heart that is 3x the normal size? You can keep your head in the sand if you want to.

 

[maldorf]

The Chris250 thread. Heart related death. I was really sorry to hear about this one. He had PMd me a couple of times with questions about the heart after he had his problem. His EF apparently was down to 25%. Mine is about 20%, been there ever since the heart attack. Climbed up to about 25% at one time.

https://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/professional-muscle-forum/126640-rip-chris250-6.html

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

This is true. Is it normal though for a 26 year old man to have a massive heart attack and a heart that is 3x the normal size? You can keep your head in the sand if you want to.

That type of sudden cardiac death is 99.999999% due to ridonkulous amounts and multiple types of biochemical enhancement agents for sustained long duration period(s) +/- rare inherited cardiac genetic disorder. Manifestation is most commonly sudden, unexpected transient tachyarrhythmia which quickly devolves into V-fib followed quickly by PEA or asystole. No BLS/ACLS started within 5-10 mins, irreversible global anoxic injury = D-E-A-D.

i actually keep my head in a bucket of bricks as it seems more appropriate.

 

[maldorf]

The bottom line is that anabolic steroids also make cardiac muscle grow and go through changes. Other agents like GH, IGF, etc have similar effects especially in the doses that they are administered. Some bodies can just handle more than others but it all has a negative impact on the body. Most guys know this to some extent, but continue to downplay the dangers.

Dallas Mccarver's heart I think was about 2-3x the normal size at autopsy. Hard to believe it grew that much by such a young age. Wondering how young he was when he started down that road.

 

[Pissbrainiac259]

The bottom line is that anabolic steroids also make cardiac muscle grow and go through changes. Other agents like GH, IGF, etc have similar effects especially in the doses that they are administered. Some bodies can just handle more than others but it all has a negative impact on the body. Most guys know this to some extent, but continue to downplay the dangers.

Dallas Mccarver's heart I think was about 2-3x the normal size at autopsy. Hard to believe it grew that much by such a young age. Wondering how young he was when he started down that road.

Physiology at the cellular biomolecular level, judicious and professionally monitored use of US pharm grade AAS would very likely present a better pros to cons ratio for most people in the appropriate clinical setting. For comparison, consider that dilated cardiomyopathy with a prevalence in the U.S. of 1:2500 is the #1 reason for needing a heart transplant. FYI, dilated CMP is when the inner chambers of your heart enlarge like a stretched out rubber band that doesn't do well to recoil to it's original pre-stretched state. Now consider that a significant number of these cases are caused by the chronic consumption of alcohol, typically 7-8 drinks/day x 5 years but CAN vary individualistically.

 

[stephenj37826]

https://www.science20.com/news_releases/igf_1_the_secret_of_the_enlarged_hearts_in_elite_rowers

It seems igf1 can increase the heart size but through hyperplasia rather than hypertrophy. I may be the new heart muscle tissue leads to a better functioning heart were as hypertrophy lowers the volume of the left ventricle. From what I'm gathering this far this isn't the case with elevated levels of igf1..... The research continues........

 

[maldorf]

https://www.science20.com/news_releases/igf_1_the_secret_of_the_enlarged_hearts_in_elite_rowers

It seems igf1 can increase the heart size but through hyperplasia rather than hypertrophy. I may be the new heart muscle tissue leads to a better functioning heart were as hypertrophy lowers the volume of the left ventricle. From what I'm gathering this far this isn't the case with elevated levels of igf1..... The research continues........

I seem to remember someone on here posting about how IGF-1 may help hearts recover after an MI. Don't quote me on that, but recently there was something on that here. A new area to be sure. Just keep in mind though, in people with acromegaly the heart becomes greatly oversized with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy etc. Those folks, like Andre the giant, have a much lower life expectancy than the norm. Having levels too high for too long is definitely very hard on the heart. If there is hyperplasia going on, then that would be a permanent change.

 

[maldorf]

bump for some of the newer members. Others on here now experiencing some serious heart problems.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

TRT should be 70mg peer week max, not more.

I personally don't really think you can give an exact dose of a drug for an entire population. Many have a different response due to numerous factors. Just the same as a 300 pound man may require more of x to treat a mild illness than a 100 pound man. To say they can't go above 70mg to me is wrong. What if 70mg has their test levels too low. What if they need 120mg (for example) to be in the middle of the "healthy" range?

I understand both yours points of view. If someone uses higher doses like 600-700 mgs or more per cycle, it may be advantageous for health to go down to 70 mgs a week for however long you want to cruise on that. If its a two weeks, three weeks, one month, two months, or your preferred length of a cruise. So it could be more healthy, and eliminate potential health issues, than say 210 mgs on a cruise. To me this little stuff matters and I like to work everything in favor of my health, while using as little hormones as possible and still grow.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Dallas Mccarver's heart I think was about 2-3x the normal size at autopsy. Hard to believe it grew that much by such a young age. Wondering how young he was when he started down that road.

He started in high school I think. he was 300 lbs in high school paying football, from what i understand from a girl that went to school with him I hung out with.

I saw him in 2012 at a show he did his first competition in 2011 and won north americas. I saw Dallas hanging with some friends at the hotel I stayed in. I was on elevator going to my room and strated talking to a fit like attractive girl. She said my boyfriends 290 lbs or something like that. Her boyfriend was Dallas. I had an invitation to train with him, as we live 45 minutes apart . I never capitalized on that.

 

[maldorf]

He started in high school I think. he was 300 lbs in high school paying football, from what i understand from a girl that went to school with him I hung out with.

I saw him in 2012 at a show he did his first competition in 2011 and won north americas. I saw Dallas hanging with some friends at the hotel I stayed in. I was on elevator going to my room and strated talking to a fit like attractive girl. She said my boyfriends 290 lbs or something like that. Her boyfriend was Dallas. I had an invitation to train with him, as we live 45 minutes apart . I never capitalized on that.

Undoubtedly started in during high school and not lightly. Ive seen 300 lb high school football players, but they are much taller than Dallas and weren't very lean. Obviously he was on things then. So you met him? What was his personality like? He seemed like a real nice guy.

 

[Love_to_Bodybuild]

Undoubtedly started in during high school and not lightly. Ive seen 300 lb high school football players, but they are much taller than Dallas and weren't very lean. Obviously he was on things then. So you met him? What was his personality like? He seemed like a real nice guy.

No I never met him. He was about fifty feet away. He looked a bit chubby from what I saw.

Yes he did seem really nice.

 

[Omegistosalex]

Dallas was such a promising prodigy, too bad this happened, may the big guy rest in peace