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Androgen receptor down-regulation and its effects on muscle growth. Short vs Long Cycles.

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This discussion does not make sense because you at all costs want to prove that your and only your truth is correct. And so you certainly know what Dorian, Kevin, Ray and all the rest did ... just a small comparison, if you were a chef and had your signature dish that won all culinary competitions, would you tell someone the exact recipe for its implementation?
Your dodging the question. What works for you may not work for someone else etc of course. This is semi off topic and a genuine question. Do you believe what all those pros did via experience was shitand they could of done better. or do you think they were all liars. Ill repeat it I don't know why you keep dodging it. its a simple question .


So lastly here to end this debate if you want to call it that.My lastquestion to you is... Do you consider the endless pro bodybuilders such as ones I listed above their experiences via trial and error over decades to be complete and utter hogwash and they were stupid for doing what they did and they would of absolutely gotten much better gains if they did longer off season cycles.

Your opinion, asking you a question above, nothing on this topic or post, but purely that. Do you fully truly believe all those great pros were doing it the wrong way and could of seenmuch better results even though they tried it every which way as they stated. you still believe they were doing it wrong and their experiences hold no value of 6 weeks being majority of the gains.

Why dodge it if it doesn't matter.
 
Your dodging the question. What works for you may not work for someone else etc of course. This is semi off topic and a genuine question. Do you believe what all those pros did via experience was shitand they could of done better. or do you think they were all liars. Ill repeat it I don't know why you keep dodging it. its a simple question .


So lastly here to end this debate if you want to call it that.My lastquestion to you is... Do you consider the endless pro bodybuilders such as ones I listed above their experiences via trial and error over decades to be complete and utter hogwash and they were stupid for doing what they did and they would of absolutely gotten much better gains if they did longer off season cycles.

Your opinion, asking you a question above, nothing on this topic or post, but purely that. Do you fully truly believe all those great pros were doing it the wrong way and could of seenmuch better results even though they tried it every which way as they stated. you still believe they were doing it wrong and their experiences hold no value of 6 weeks being majority of the gains.

Why dodge it if it doesn't matter.
We can play endlessly. But answering your question - I don't think they did something wrong, but I don't think you really know what they did. As a proof, I personally know a new pro whose mentor is Dorian, and he also doesn't use short cycles - I don't know, maybe Dorian doesn't want to tell him his true recipe for success, who knows.
 
great nonsensical reply... So there is a limit for time on now and its hit faster by using stronger compounds ? I thought there was no limit and using more as you progress leads to progress continuing. now it doesn't ? And as health starts to fail lmao. Ya tons of guys health failing on typical gym rat cycles after 12 weeks. All great non sensical opinions.

This will be my last post on the topic, because I have better things to do than address nonsensical, financially biased arguments.

Using Broderick's elevator analogy, there is an upper limit/top floor, which is variable and expected, not 'magical' as you and your business partner MPMD continue to erroneously suggest.

However, this limit will NOT typically be reached after '6 weeks' as you claim, by a healthy, young powerlifter who starts on a PED dose of 2.5 mg/kg bodyweight. Assuming everything is in place, he will continue to adapt accordingly, as he titrates higher over time.

It has nothing to do with amphetamine like AR downregulation as MPMD suggested...it simply means the drugs, training and diet are working as expected.
 
We can play endlessly. But answering your question - I don't think they did something wrong, but I don't think you really know what they did. As a proof, I personally know a new pro whose mentor is Dorian, and he also doesn't use short cycles - I don't know, maybe Dorian doesn't want to tell him his true recipe for success, who knows.
Just a question.. not a game... only two options, you think their lying or think they did it wrong. And they could be lying absolutely. and they could of done it wrong too.

But then that leads to, why do you think your method due to your pro coaches etc is the right or better way if they are not lying. You have your personal experiences just like everyone else has their own.hence so many fellas in here commenting they too felt gains stop come mid cycle even when eating more etc. Their experiences arent shit, and there's much larger fellas who felt the same and science to back it. Your essentially arguing opinions here vs personal experience. Opinions arent a fact.
 
This will be my last post on the topic, because I have better things to do than address nonsensical, financially biased arguments.

Using Broderick's elevator analogy, there is an upper limit/top floor, which is variable and expected, not 'magical' as you and your business partner MPMD continue to erroneously suggest.

However, this limit will NOT typically be reached after '6 weeks' as you claim, by a healthy, young powerlifter who starts on a PED dose of 2.5 mg/kg bodyweight. Assuming everything is in place, he will continue to adapt accordingly, as he titrates higher over time.

It has nothing to do with amphetamine like AR downregulation as MPMD suggested...it simply means the drugs, training and diet are working as expected.
Awesome opinion. My studies on ATHLETES says otherwise and the elite powerlifters under me would also argue otherwise. Again if you seen my testimonals. which not all are up. I have had world wide first in their weight class lifters. So awesome opinion thanks for sharing. Ill go with science and world elite lifters over your opinion though. Thanks for sharing.
 
Having lots of data is not of much use when you're too dumb to draw the correct conclusions from them. There's a great many things wrong with your argumentation, but I don't have the time to write a point by point rebuttal. Regarding " Supporting Data 3" though, a quote from Mike Arnold from another thread. I'm sure you will figure out what I'm getting at here.

I'm not advising you on dosages one way or the other (I don't feel like going there), but as far as you thinking that you will "shrink away to nothing" at TRT doses (150-200 mg test/week), NO, you would not. In fact, based on the current amount of muscle you carry, you would not lose ANY muscle at all (assuming you continue eating and training). Would you lose fullness, some vascularity and hardness? Yes, but steroid induced fullness is just water retention, NOT actual muscle fiber. Steroids, in general, inhibit an enzyme which alters electrolyte balance, causing the muscles to soak up water (think Anadrol or SD). When this happens, the muscle swell up and you may indeed look like you've gained 10 pounds of muscle, but none of that is actual muscle tissue. Some steroids are quite powerful in this regard (Anadrol, SD, M1T), while others are not nearly so (primo, masteron, etc.). This is why we often hear guys say they went on Anadrol and gained 10-15 pounds in 2 weeks, despite already being on high doses of other, less water retaining steroids. Do you think those people actually gained 10-15 pounds of muscle? No. What they gained was intramuscular water, which is why, when they drop the Anadrol, that entire 10-15 initial pounds falls right off.

Even when running a cycle of, say, 500 test and 400 Deca, the intramuscular water retention will still be significant, so if you drop the Deca and lower the test down down to 200 mg/week, you will deflate a little bit and lose most of the other cosmetic effects steroids are known for. This process happens relatively quickly, so many people think they are "losing all their gains" after just a couple weeks. This mentality has caused innumerable bodybuilders to stay on high doses of multiple compounds year year...simply out of fear that they will "shrink up" if they back off a bit.


If you can't emotionally handle the fluctuations in bodyweight, fullness, vascularity or muscle hardness that accompany proper steroid use...and you choose to stay in this sport long term, the chances of you ending up with serious health problem is much greater than it needs to be. On the other hand, if you learn how steroids work and take an emotionally more mature approach by understanding that you cannot always look your best or be at your strongest, you will end going just as far with less harm to your health. In reality, you will likely end up going even farther because you will main better health over the long haul, which is critical for long-term success in bodybuilding. If you do not learn how to approach bodybuilding with emotional maturity, you are doing yourself a disservice. Unfortunately, there are a lot of guys whose lack self-esteem and inner self-confidence prevents them from being able to handle fluctuations in appearance and/or performance.

The truth is that your body, at this point in your development, barley requires any steroids to maintain its current level of muscle tissue. Don't confuse muscle fiber with fullness.

It's the same with strength. One of the ways by which steroids increase strength is through enhanced contractile ability. Some do this better than others. This strength is "artificial" in that it is purely a function of the steroids themselves, NOT due to an increase in muscle fiber. The strength you gain from actual muscle fiber acquisition will stay with you as long as you keep that muscle. The strength gained from steroid-induced contractile enhancement will not. That goes away as soon as you drop the drugs responsible for imparting that effect. For example, if you are using testosterone at 300 mg week and have achieved a certain level of strength...and then you add in some Halotestin, you will immediately add even more strength. If you then drop that compound, your strength will go back down to pre-Halo levels, but your amount of actual muscle fiber won't change. So, when you drop certain compounds and/or significantly lower dosages, you need to anticipate losses in strength, even if the amount of testosterone being utilized if still adequate to main your muscle fiber. The point here is that a loss is strength does not always signify a loss of muscle tissue. This is understand concept you need to understand and accept if you want to progress in the healthiest way possible with your eyes on long-term success.

As a bodybuilder gets bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger, the amount of steroid required to maintain his muscle tissue increases, but the principle above stand true for everyone, regardless of their level of development. You would do well to learn and accept this as soon as possible.
 
From Mr. Clark's website:

My own results and experiences of having added 100lbs of muscle to my frame had all been from only a handful of cycles, about 4 to be exact. 4 cycles where I had just started using steroids and or after a long break. 4 cycles that I had gained essentially 20-30lbs each cycle within a 4-6 week period. Cycles where I had stayed on longer some of them to barely budge the scale even with stuffing my face with more and more food after the scale had stopped moving.

And periods where I had stayed on for over a year at times seeing basically no results to then come off, take a good break, and then jump back on to gain 20-30lbs like magic, just like the studies show us. Studies showing that even without training steroids can be magic with immense gains in strength and size. Yet we all know this effect doesn’t continue or else everyone who stays on would be at their complete and maximal size within no time.
Absolutely retarded.
 
I am not going to even get involved in this as it would be a merry-go-round. There is merit in short cycles and they could be used with great effect. However the evidence in this thread has been cherry picked and it's simply off in the grand scheme. There are many ways up the mountain but gains do not suddenly stop at 6 weeks. As Swifto excellently put you need to adjust as you progress. Coming off then suddenly going back on isn't going to suddenly create more new gains over and over.

There are a variety of reasons (some have jus been posted above) why we experience most of our gains in the first... not even 6 but 4 weeks of a cycle. It doesn't mean the drugs become obsolete after 42 days. There are so many things you can do to keep gaining during a long cycle. There are so many variables to all of this it's pointless even getting into.

These guys come across every so often and try and reinvent the wheel and it's not even with new ideas but old ones presented like they are original. Many on here have been there and done it. We have done short cycles and we utilize carnitine to compliment cycles etc. Most importantly this type of bullshit doesn't work on a bodybuilding forum like this because we research and many of us have been experimenting for years. This stuff will work on facebook and instagram but not on here.
 
Having lots of data is not of much use when you're too dumb to draw the correct conclusions from them. There's a great many things wrong with your argumentation, but I don't have the time to write a point by point rebuttal. Regarding " Supporting Data 3" though, a quote from Mike Arnold from another thread. I'm sure you will figure out what I'm getting at here.
Awesome another great analogy. But of course the rest of the studies went right over your heading where they literally stated the anabolic effects of steroids were not longer seen and only a benefit of anti catabolic effect. Of course I posted studies where your posting opinions Another awesome job.
 
I am not going to even get involved in this as it would be a merry-go-round. There is merit in short cycles and they could be used with great effect. However the evidence in this thread has been cherry picked and it's simply off in the grand scheme. There are many ways up the mountain but gains do not suddenly stop at 6 weeks. As Swifto excellently put you need to adjust as you progress. Coming off then suddenly going back on isn't going to suddenly create more new gains over and over.

There are a variety of reasons (some have jus been posted above) why we experience most of our gains in the first... not even 6 but 4 weeks of a cycle. It doesn't mean the drugs become obsolete after 42 days. There are so many things you can do to keep gaining during a long cycle. There are so many variables to all of this it's pointless even getting into.

These guys come across every so often and try and reinvent the wheel and it's not even with new ideas but old ones presented like they are original. Many on here have been there and done it. We have done short cycles and we utilize carnitine to compliment cycles etc. Most importantly this type of bullshit doesn't work on a bodybuilding forum like this because we research and many of us have been experimenting for years. This stuff will work on facebook and instagram but not on here.
Thankfully I didn't try and re invent any wheel as I had stated spef I am giving merit with studies to a time tested method that has been spoken about by many pros for decades. But again none of the weight gain has anything to do with the fact the studies showed the anabolic did not carry their same anabolic effect anymore when receptors returned to baseline, aka they were not anabolic anymore in the same sense as but a mere anti catabolic effect. But everyone wants to keep cherry picking the 1 part of 1 study and ignoring the rest of the data in the studies which make them look silly.
 
From Mr. Clark's website:


Absolutely retarded.
ya and my last cycle which netted me 22lbs over my heaviest weight ever I kept all those magical water weight gains for 6 months while I didn't train and barely ate. Didnt know water lasted that long. But of course its only personal opinions here no studies needed right.
 
ya and my last cycle which netted me 22lbs over my heaviest weight ever I kept all those magical water weight gains for 6 months while I didn't train and barely ate. Didnt know water lasted that long. But of course its only personal opinions here no studies needed right.

Pics? What does 22 pounds over your heaviest weight ever look like?
 
wont let me attach files, maybe not enough post? whats your FB handle, my biggest is on video np sending. Im not a monster.. But all my results have been from a handful of 4-6 week periods of cycles/cycles every single time. And my very last run at my biggest weight where I had went 22lbs over using the least amount of gear gaining almost 2 inches on my arms and keeping within that 6 week period is enough for me to have seen my body do this every single time after a break. And my clients results have shown the same effects. Dont judge my results but I can show you np. Judge my clients 6 weeks results which I have np posting also who are even bigger then me. Im not a dedicated person, Im a person whos ran cycles and taken year breaks off everything. Which says a lot for the magic results steroids have produced after time off.

But judge actual bodybuilders results who've tried my method as these are the fellas you guys keep mentioning right,old, non athletes don't have any merit am I right?Or am I wrong now.
 
You and Lillidiot187 should start a board together.
 
You and Lillidiot187 should start a board together.
Btw I still love how you tried to sound so smart and threw some jargon at me then totally dodged it when called out further. Still waiting on a reply on that nuclear receptor. singular right?
 
="Taeian clark, post: 2865857, member: 219733"]
Lol... yes right on topic of androgen receptor down regulstion





If you're implying the observation by Jee Hyun An et al. Endocr J. 2016. "L-carnitine supplementation for the management of fatigue in patients with hypothyroidism on levothyroxine treatment: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial"

Have you read the full literature accessing the materials, methods and results? Or did you just read the abstract and drew your own conclusions? If you have access to the full literature, such as I. If you did. You'll notice there was no peripheral biopsies assays to determine any of the nTR isoform(s) to determine agonistic or antagonistic interactions with any nTR. The basis of the study was to quantify the mental and physical symptomatic resolution by the adjuvant use of L-carnitine. L-carnitine has been well established to antagonize peripheral nTR. There's no debating this.

To answer your elementary cellular bio question. There are 4 isoforms of TR, two alphas, two beta, each have one DNA nucleus. I'm not sure if you're alluding to extranuclear domain interactions or other binding domains of the TR.

You lack reason and most certainly lack comprehension that likes to dance around the questions.
 
Btw I still love how you tried to sound so smart and threw some jargon at me then totally dodged it when called out further. Still waiting on a reply on that nuclear receptor. singular right?

You can add Reading Skills to your list of inadequacy. That was Stewie you moron.
 

I honestly wouldn't waste your time Stewie.

He clearly has nothing better to do today. Replied to posts in seconds not minutes.

I've been warned via PM that this cat will keep going like a troll. He doesn't even understand the fundamentals.
 
If you're implying the observation by Jee Hyun An et al. Endocr J. 2016. "L-carnitine supplementation for the management of fatigue in patients with hypothyroidism on levothyroxine treatment: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial"

Have you read the full literature accessing the materials, methods and results? Or did you just read the abstract and drew your own conclusions? If you have access to the full literature, such as I. If you did. You'll notice there was no peripheral biopsies assays to determine any of the nTR isoform(s) to determine agonistic or antagonistic interactions with any nTR. The basis of the study was to quantify the mental and physical symptomatic resolution by the adjuvant use of L-carnitine. L-carnitine has been well established to antagonize peripheral nTR. There's no debating this.

To answer your elementary cellular bio question. There are 4 isoforms of TR, two alphas, two beta, each have one DNA nucleus. I'm not sure if you're alluding to extranuclear domain interactions or or other binding domains of the TR.

You lack reason and most certainly lack comprehension that likes to dance around the questions.
[/QUOTE]
Everyone has access to all full journals friend sites like sci hub are not hard to find anymore for the masses.

And you fully dodged the topic again and instead trying to play around about. Please do tell which nuclear receptors are effected, Which are down regulated and which are upregulated and what are their different effects. You keep dodging please go into detail.
 
I honestly wouldn't waste your time Stewie.

He clearly has nothing better to do today. Replied to posts in seconds not minutes.

I've been warned via PM that this cat will keep going like a troll. He doesn't even understand the fundamentals.
Ah yes when you are losing a debate lets start the you do not understand.. you're wrong comments. Glad to see all the data to refute the studies Ive posted has been literally zero studies. Good job fellas.

Do I get another you're wrong post because you have absolutely nothing to refute.
 
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