Androgenic cycles and fatburners?

[The Wolf]

Btw I heard a few people take a diurtetic every month for 3 days during a big cycle, just to assess the amount of water or fat they are holding and to see how they look. Does anyone else do that?

 

[ALLEX]

How about taking any other natural diuretics Alex?

Sure, green tea, juices, lots of water... Everything helps...

 

[ALLEX]

I disagree with your statement that androgenic cycles cause water and fat retention. This is just not true.

Are you saying that you don't get all swollen while on test or dbol?

 

[MAINEVENT]

Btw I heard a few people take a diurtetic every month for 3 days during a big cycle, just to assess the amount of water or fat they are holding and to see how they look. Does anyone else do that?

My opinion........not a good idea.

 

[oldfella]

Are you saying that you don't get all swollen while on test or dbol?

That's exactly what I was saying!

 

[ALLEX]

That's exactly what I was saying!

How good for you, bro. Myself, I need to get shoes 1 size bigger while on high gear!

 

[oldfella]

How good for you, bro. Myself, I need to get shoes 1 size bigger while on high gear!:D

Now when talking dose then this is where the problems occur. Too high a dose or too much total androgen intake leads to aromatisation. When this happens you get high estrogen levels. High estorgen leads to fat storage and water retention. This is why I have never been a big fan of high weekly doses. But if kept to a dose that allows good solid gains and little to no sides (it is possible) then you get no bloat, no excess fat. You get a high anabolic state in the body which is highly conducive to fat burning and muscle building. Also as mentioned sodium intake and balance is a must to avoid water retention probs. I do not avoid salt but I do not go out of my way to add salt either. Stay away from saturated fats also, these are absolutely the worst kind while ON let alone under normal conditions. I tend to drink inordinate amounts of water if cycling. Like 10 liters a day! Yes i piss a lot but it is good for you in the long run. It gets your system used to dealing with water very efficiently and you generally will have no need to store water (retention).

 

[Shelby]

Now when talking dose then this is where the problems occur. Too high a dose or too much total androgen intake leads to aromatisation. When this happens you get high estrogen levels. High estorgen leads to fat storage and water retention. This is why I have never been a big fan of high weekly doses. But if kept to a dose that allows good solid gains and little to no sides (it is possible) then you get no bloat, no excess fat. You get a high anabolic state in the body which is highly conducive to fat burning and muscle building. Also as mentioned sodium intake and balance is a must to avoid water retention probs. I do not avoid salt but I do not go out of my way to add salt either. Stay away from saturated fats also, these are absolutely the worst kind while ON let alone under normal conditions. I tend to drink inordinate amounts of water if cycling. Like 10 liters a day! Yes i piss a lot but it is good for you in the long run. It gets your system used to dealing with water very efficiently and you generally will have no need to store water (retention).

Listen up folks, da' old man be preachin' da' truth heah!

Very good post, buddy. Lots of take home points for the guys here.

 

[ALLEX]

Now when talking dose then this is where the problems occur. Too high a dose or too much total androgen intake leads to aromatisation. When this happens you get high estrogen levels. High estorgen leads to fat storage and water retention. This is why I have never been a big fan of high weekly doses. But if kept to a dose that allows good solid gains and little to no sides (it is possible) then you get no bloat, no excess fat. You get a high anabolic state in the body which is highly conducive to fat burning and muscle building. Also as mentioned sodium intake and balance is a must to avoid water retention probs. I do not avoid salt but I do not go out of my way to add salt either. Stay away from saturated fats also, these are absolutely the worst kind while ON let alone under normal conditions. I tend to drink inordinate amounts of water if cycling. Like 10 liters a day! Yes i piss a lot but it is good for you in the long run. It gets your system used to dealing with water very efficiently and you generally will have no need to store water (retention).

Got it oldfella. Although my doses are by no means high, I always neglect my water intake, so that could be it.

 

[KillerStack]

I don't believe estrogen causes fat gain, especially in combination with high androgen levels. Estrogen increases lipolysis in fact. It does influence the pattern of fat distribution though.

I don't believe there is any AAS that makes you put on fat or reduces BMR. Don't confuse water retention with fat gain.

 

[terryd5150]

Really?

I don't believe estrogen causes fat gain, especially in combination with high androgen levels. Estrogen increases lipolysis in fact. It does influence the pattern of fat distribution though.

Can you explain the difference in body compostion in males vs. females then?

 

[The Wolf]

Estrogen makes me hold on too fat, when my estrogen level gets high, my ass gets bigger than my moms . When I start taking proviron and tamoxafen then it gets harder again. Its ok when your a long way from competion but I got to keep it clean as I have only 10 weeks. If I can control the estrogen and water I think Im gonna be ok.

 

[KillerStack]

Can you explain the difference in body compostion in males vs. females then?

It's rarely as simple as one hormone being the difference between a male and a female for example. There are other hormones that are lipogenic, like progesterone. If you search pubmed you can see estrogen is lipolytic, enhancing fat mobilization.

Here's an example, men given estrogen:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3592-9.

Estrogen supplementation reduces whole body leucine and carbohydrate oxidation and increases lipid oxidation in men during endurance exercise.

Hamadeh MJ, Devries MC, Tarnopolsky MA.

Department of Pediatrics and Medicine, McMaster University Medical Center, 1200 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8N 3Z5.

Healthy active men exhibit higher rates of carbohydrate (CHO) and leucine oxidation and lower rates of lipid oxidation compared with their female counterparts both at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. We postulated that this reduced dependence on amino acids as a fuel source in women was due to the female sex hormone estrogen. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over design, we investigated the effect of supplementing 12 recreationally active men with estrogen on whole body substrate oxidation and leucine kinetics at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. Subjects cycled for 90 min at an intensity of 65% maximum O(2) consumption after 8 d of either estrogen supplementation (2 mg 17beta-estradiol/d) or placebo (polycose). After a 2-wk washout period, they repeated the test after 8 d of the alternate treatment. On the test day, after a primed continuous infusion of l-[(13)C]leucine, O(2) consumption, CO(2) production, steady-state breath (13)CO(2), and plasma alpha-[(13)C]ketoisocaproate enrichments were measured at rest and at 60, 75, and 90 min during exercise in the postabsorptive state. Exercise increased energy expenditure more than 5-fold, CHO oxidation more than 6-fold, lipid oxidation more than 4-fold, and leucine oxidation 2.2-fold (all P < 0.0001), whereas it decreased the ratio of lipid to CHO oxidation by 50-70% (P = 0.003) compared with values at rest. Estrogen supplementation decreased respiratory exchange ratio during exercise (P = 0.03). Estrogen supplementation significantly decreased CHO oxidation by 5-16% (P = 0.04) and leucine oxidation by 16% (P = 0.01), whereas it significantly increased lipid oxidation by 22-44% (P = 0.024) at rest and during exercise. We conclude that estrogen influences fuel source selection at rest and during endurance exercise in recreationally active men, characterized by a reduced dependence on amino acids and CHO and an increased reliance on lipids as a fuel source.

Here it says estrogen has similar effects as test and GH on lipid metabolism:

Hum Reprod. 1997 Oct;12 Suppl 1:21-5.Links
Hormonal control of regional fat distribution.
Björntorp P.

Department of Heart and Lung Diseases, Sahlgren's Hospital, University of Göteborg, Sweden.

Hormones exert powerful influences on body fat distribution in humans. Studies under fully controlled conditions in vitro have indicated that cortisol and insulin facilitate lipid accumulation by expressing lipoprotein lipase (LPL). Growth hormone (GH) abolishes this and turns metabolism towards lipid mobilization. Testosterone and GH inhibit LPL and stimulate lipolysis markedly. Cortisol effects are mediated via a glucocorticoid receptor, and testosterone effects via an androgen receptor, the density of which appears to be higher in visceral than subcutaneous adipose tissue. The receptor-mediated effects are probably expressed via transcription of appropriate genes. The female sex steroids also regulate adipose tissue metabolism, but apparently not directly in the absence of specific cellular receptors. Oestrogens seem to exert net effects similar to those of testosterone. These results of cellular studies agree well with in-vivo studies of triglyceride uptake and turnover in different adipose tissue regions. Furthermore, clinical entities with characteristic disturbances in hormone levels show the expected redistribution patterns.

Don't forget that suppressing estrogen with an AI reduces GH levels. We all know how important GH is in fat burning.

It's also possible tamoxifen acts as an estrogen in bodyfat, that being the reason it seems to help females get their thighs leaner.

 

[KillerStack]

This is also interesting. When you stack test with an AI you don't get the suppression of LPL that test alone gives.

Metabolism. 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50.Click here to read Links
The effect of testosterone aromatization on high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level and postheparin lipolytic activity.
Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD.

Department of Medicine, Miriam Hospital, Providence, RI.

Stanozolol, an oral 17 alpha-alkylated androgen, increases hepatic triglyceride lipase activity (HTGLA) and decreases high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL-C) levels, whereas intramuscular testosterone has comparatively little effect. In the present study, we tested the hypothesis that aromatization of androgen to estrogen blunts the lipid and lipase effects of exogenous testosterone. Fourteen male weightlifters received testosterone enanthate (200 mg/wk intramuscularly), the aromatase inhibitor testolactone (250 mg four times per day), or both drugs together in a randomized cross-over design. Serum testosterone level increased during all three drug treatments, whereas estradiol level increased only with testosterone alone (+47%, P < .05), demonstrating that testolactone effectively inhibited testosterone aromatization. Testosterone decreased HDL-C(-16%, P < .05), HDL2-C(-23%, NS), and apoprotein (apo) A-I (-12%, P < .05) levels, effects that were consistently but not significantly greater with simultaneous testosterone and testolactone administration (HDL-C, -20%; HDL2-C, -30%; apo A-I, -15%; P < .05 for all). In contrast, both testosterone regimens decreased HDL3-C levels by 13% (P < .05 for both). HTGLA increased 21% during testosterone treatment and 38% during combined testosterone and testolactone treatment (P < .01 for both). Lipoprotein lipase activity (LPLA) increased only during combined testosterone and testolactone treatment (+31%, P < .01), suggesting that estrogen production may counteract the effects of testosterone on LPLA. Testolactone alone had little effect on any lipid, lipoprotein, apoprotein, or lipase concentration.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

Seems like most pros don't use AIs or SERMs in their stacks until perhaps at the very end of a contest diet since they are known to lower IGF-1 levels. That's what Chad Nicholls said a few years ago. It's probably still true if you look at the nasty gyno so many top Olympia competitors have (and which keeps coming back even after repeated surgeries).

 

[Fa Seeshus]

estrogen converts to different metabolites. there are actually forms of "good" and "bad" estrogen formed as the body breaks it down. taking DIM will help some people who have probs with estrogen. DIM is available at any health food store in the women's health section.

i wish i could elaborate more... it is explained well on the anabolicminds hormone replacement forum.

i have always had probs cutting on test, until i lowered the dose to the bare minimum needed, and added DIM, on top of some exemestane.

test, in reasonable doses, has been shown to help fat burning. you do not need alot... 100-200mg a week will do the trick.