Another BALDNAZI case...here's my story

[BrooklynBB]

I think you are a little ignorant on this topic bro. For all I know, for all you know, or for all the doctors know, this thing could/probably has been growing inside me for quite some time.

It's called having a Theory. Ignorance is one thing, having a theory is another, and that's my theory - Tren is at the top of the list for severe liver issues. Denial, on the other hand, is when you ignore that you and two other people have had issues with your liver and have all taken tren in similar dosing schedules.

We already know that orals in high doses cause short term problems that cease after you stop taking the drug.

We also know that bodybuilders have taken in excess of 1200 - 1500mg testosterone for weeks on end with no problems.

Tren we have no clue about: do the metabolites stay in your system and thus effect the liver in a different way that causes problems? Does Tren affect enzymes that are normally available to perform normal processes in the liver by stopping thier production? I'm asking those questions, and that's not ignorance.


So that's where I form my theory that tren is the common demoninator here for severe liver problems, and I'm going to stick to that, because that's where the facts lead.

LOL, damn bro. Let me preface my post by saying that It seems like you are taking my responses to these studies out of context or at least just taking them the wrong way all together.

Well I agree that tone can never be interpreted on the internet.

Arguing doesn't have to mean anything bad, although we hear some people talk about "arguing" when they speak of fights with thier friends and family. I see arguing as a debate involving two opposing points of view - you believe that the tren played a role in combination with the enanthate and other things, I say that Tren is at the top of the list of the problems since you and two other people - on this forum alone in a one year period - have taken the EXACT same amounts of tren and have succumed to major, potentially major, and warning signs of liver failure / cysts / problems.

But I'll stop arguing here and just say that we see it differently, and the main reason I'm so adamant about getting my point across about the tren is because honestly, you're searching for the answers and don't want to get hurt. I don't want you to get hurt either, and I'm hoping that you stay away from the harsher substances - Which I feel that Tren is definitely the most harsh out of anything you've taken - and just take it easy and let yourself slowwwly build muscle. Leave the Tren for the guys who have $10,000 to spend on doctor visits and make sure that no vital organs are getting destroyed, like your liver.

Brother, just persue this the old fashioned way and be patient with your gains and don't hurt yourself. Can we at least agree that both of us don't want to see you get hurt?

 

[HELLA SWOLE]

Arguing doesn't have to mean anything bad, although we hear some people talk about "arguing" when they speak of fights with thier friends and family. I see arguing as a debate involving two opposing points of view - you believe that the tren played a role in combination with the enanthate and other things, I say that Tren is at the top of the list of the problems since you and two other people - on this forum alone in a one year period - have taken the EXACT same amounts of tren and have succumed to major, potentially major, and warning signs of liver failure / cysts / problems.

That statement is false. BN I believe was on 100mg of tren ED at the time of his occurrence. I was on only 75MG EOD....6 months PRIOR to my occurrence. HUGE difference.

But I'll stop arguing here and just say that we see it differently, and the main reason I'm so adamant about getting my point across about the tren is because honestly, you're searching for the answers and don't want to get hurt. I don't want you to get hurt either, and I'm hoping that you stay away from the harsher substances - Which I feel that Tren is definitely the most harsh out of anything you've taken - and just take it easy and let yourself slowwwly build muscle. Leave the Tren for the guys who have $10,000 to spend on doctor visits and make sure that no vital organs are getting destroyed, like your liver.

Well, I wish it was going to work out that way. But not only am I going to be staying away from tren, but I am going to be clean PERIOD...no drugs at all. Except for some aromasin until my HPTA gets up and running again. And maybe some clomid. I would be an idiot to be taking anything after this. I will not do anything to stress this thing more with any more AAS and even after being clean for a long time, who even knows if it will go away...God I sure hope it does. The only anabolic substances I will be using now are TONS of food, protein powder, and creatine....and TIME.

Brother, just persue this the old fashioned way and be patient with your gains and don't hurt yourself. Can we at least agree that both of us don't want to see you get hurt?

Yes, I think we can Thanks bro. BTW< the new avy looks solid!

 

[aesop]

I am hoping to set some people straight with this. If you use gear you should take precautions to prevent health problems ie blood work, and maintaining healthy blood pressure and blood lipids.

Ok 2 people on this board developed hepatic adenomas. A hepatic adenoma consist of a group normal healthy hepatocytes which fail to develop bile ducts. This is a rare condition with and incidence of 1 in 1,000,000 in the general population and and 4 in 100,000 in women taking birth control. There are no direct numbers of the incidence in AAS users but I would venture to guess it is similar to the birth control #'s. Hepatic adenomas do not affect liver values or liver function except in very rare cases like baldnazi when they rupture.

Ok so what is the cause? No matter how careful hella swole or baldnazi were regarding their use of liver support while on AAS, they were going to develop the HA's becuase of a genetic predisposition. Most likley they are cause by elevated estrogen, progesterone, or possibly prolactin.

There is no point trying to pin the occurence of HA's on tren use, because tren is so harsh blah blah. The point is that this condition is not liver damage therefore tren is not causing them solely because it is harsh. If the occurence of HA's is increased by elevated prolactin levels in a very small percentage of the population, then there is a possible tren connection. The increased occurence of HA's could also be due to increased test, estro, or progesterone, or possibly igf1. But the thing is we don't know exactly so stop trying to justify gear useage by saying you would never use tren. That is retarded we have no fucking clue exactly why they are caused, but a very small percentage of people do develop HA's.

Unless you know why they are caused exactly (scientific proof from a controlled randomized group) and can identify the mechanism which causes small groups of hepatocytes to grow and divide without developing bile ducts, your opinion of what cause baldnazi and hella swole's HA's is not wanted because it is extremely uneducated. It is most definitely not a theory either because you test theories, and unless you are planning a randomized controlled longitudinal study with n=10,000 plus, you don't have and educated theory.

2 people on the same board who have used tren does not = causation or correlation. It is a coincidence. So some people need to stop being dumb asses and stop trying to justify their gear use based on a coincidence.

To Hellaswole and baldnazi: Good Luck and I hope you live long healthy lives with the ha's.

 

[BrooklynBB]

Aesop who?

No matter how careful hella swole or baldnazi were regarding their use of liver support while on AAS, they were going to develop the HA's becuase of a genetic predisposition. Most likley they are cause by elevated estrogen, progesterone, or possibly prolactin.

Ok, this is a good guess, but this is not based on anything you know for sure. What we know for sure is that both BN and Hella were taking tren and developed the exact same condition. All you're doing is saying, "This is what may have happened IF they are pre-disposed to have this." That's speculation.

There is no point trying to pin the occurence of HA's on tren use, because tren is so harsh blah blah. The point is that this condition is not liver damage therefore tren is not causing them solely because it is harsh.

Hmm.. I don't believe saying "blah blah" but if I did, I retract all previous "blah blah"'s from my post.

I'm not sure why you and Hella are so sensitive to the Tren argument. I'm saying it's Tren - you can disagree, but don't attempt to discredit my opinion because you think it's wrong. I'm not going to repeat what I already wrote three times, so you can go back and re-read my posts - I never blamed Tren EXCLUSIVELY, I said it was the common denominator. By the way, there are THREE people who have problems with this. You can find the third in a previous message I posted in this thread.

If the occurence of HA's is increased by elevated prolactin levels in a very small percentage of the population, then there is a possible tren connection. The increased occurence of HA's could also be due to increased test, estro, or progesterone, or possibly igf1.

It could also be due to fake gear either of them injected thinking it was one thing but it ended up being another. But both you and I are speculating if I were to use that argument. The facts still show the common denominator is the Tren.

But the thing is we don't know exactly so stop trying to justify gear useage by saying you would never use tren.

OH I see, that's my real goal here. Not to try to help out and figure out what the cause of these liver problems are, but rather to justify the fact that taking all other gear is ok? That's laughable.

Look man, if you take lots of tren, that's cool. God speed to you. I hope you have zero problems and never develop liver cysts. But be careful either way, because that Tren is pretty harsh.

That is retarded we have no fucking clue exactly why they are caused, but a very small percentage of people do develop HA's.

Relax - no need to get angry. Let's not enter childish mode because we disagree. We're trying to have a discussion and get to the bottom of these problems so they wont occur again. Understand?

Unless you know why they are caused exactly (scientific proof from a controlled randomized group) and can identify the mechanism which causes small groups of hepatocytes to grow and divide without developing bile ducts, your opinion of what cause baldnazi and hella swole's HA's is not wanted because it is extremely uneducated.

One guy says ignorant, the other uneducated. Why not call me a eunoch and say since I don't have a dick that this is my way of masturbating? LOL!

Look, if I use your argument against you I can make you look silly too:

"Unless you know why they are caused exactly (scientific proof from a controlled randomized group) and can identify the mechanism which causes small groups of hepatocytes to grow and divide without developing bile ducts, your opinion of what DID NOT cause baldnazi and hella swole's HA's is not [warranted] because it is extremely uneducated. "

You're speculating, I'm offering an opinion based on fact. Why not use the evidence provided in both BN's and Hella's experience, combined with the third case, along with what we know about Tren's chemical structure and how it reacts in the body, and come up with something more intelligent then name calling and saying I'm wrong?

It is most definitely not a theory either because you test theories, and unless you are planning a randomized controlled longitudinal study with n=10,000 plus, you don't have and educated theory.

This is degrading into a semantics argument. Ok, if you wish...

"A theory does not change into a scientific law with the accumulation of new or better evidence. A theory will always be a theory, a law will always be a law."

If you understand that statement, then you will see how a theory is merely an opinion based on facts. I don't need to explain this further, do I?

2 people on the same board who have used tren does not = causation or correlation. It is a coincidence.

And your explanation that both of them have some sort of genetic pre-disposition to contracting liver problems is speculation. You see this as a coincidence, I still say Tren is the major player in these issues in combination with other factors. You can go ahead and continue to take Tren and hope for the best - I wish you good luck.

So some people need to stop being dumb asses and stop trying to justify their gear use based on a coincidence.

Who is more of a dumb ass: the guy who ignores the clues or the clueless keyboard scientist who goes around regurgitating OLD scientific studies? You're taking my Tren argument as an attack on you or something, otherwise you wouldn't resort to high-school level name calling and insulting. I think you're projecting a fear here that I may be correct, and some day your Tren usage will catch up with you.

I don't need to justify anything I MAY or MAY NOT be doing. I'm trying to help out and get people to think and research before they continue on thier journey to get huge muscle and end up in the hospital for what purpose? To win a contest? If you're a pro, and you're making money from endorsements and winning shows (i.e., Cutler and Coleman) then you can afford all the doctor's visits and tests you want to clean out your system and never have to worry about severe problems.

This is what you guys aren't getting, Hella and Aesop. Both of you need to think to yourself what this game is all about: Getting big for the sake of .. what? Are either of you competitive? If so, how much money have you made so far from your bodybuilding endeavors? How much have you spent? How much time effort and energy have you devoted to the goal of getting your chest 5 inches bigger over the last 5 years for the sole purpose of being big?

I digress - the bottom line is if this discussion is going to degrade into a meaningless semantic breakdown and insulting then I want no part of it. I seem to have offended one person whom I don't know from a hole in wall (AESOP) and convinced Hella that I'm "angry" because I said TREN IS HARSH ... ?? You guys need to evaluate what's really going on here.

Aesop, you're a smart guy when it comes to these types of things and I've read all 13 of your other posts. But why the name calling? Did I offend you directly?

To Hellaswole and baldnazi: Good Luck and I hope you live long healthy lives with the ha's.

The only statement I can agree with here.

 

[HELLA SWOLE]

I am going to preface this post as well by saying I am/was neither mad nor upset at all. I think this "arguing" is good as long as we can refrain from any hostility or name calling. BBB< I am not sure why you brought me back into this though because I thought with my last post I ended this small excerpt of bickering, but I guess I have to come back in and reply once more...well, hopefully once.

I'm not sure why you and Hella are so sensitive to the Tren argument. I'm saying it's Tren - you can disagree, but don't attempt to discredit my opinion because you think it's wrong. I'm not going to repeat what I already wrote three times, so you can go back and re-read my posts - I never blamed Tren EXCLUSIVELY, I said it was the common denominator. By the way, there are THREE people who have problems with this. You can find the third in a previous message I posted in this thread.

Why do you keep saying I am "sensitive" to the tren argument? I agreed with you from the beginning that tren would be the one I would watch out for the most and that if someone was capable of developing an HA, then I am sure tren would be one of the compound that would expedite the process the most. I thought we both agreed that it probably wasn't the ONLY factor, but definitely contributed.

Oh, and there are not THREE other people on the board with this problem. It's jsut me and BN...as far as we know at least. The other guy "ironone" simply had a swelling or enlargement of the liver which has nothing to do with an adenoma. Hell, my liver is completely normal size. Ironone's liver was probably jsut under too much stress for too long. He is fine though, I have talked with him. He outlined the whole situation to me in detail via PM.

One guy says ignorant, the other uneducated. Why not call me a eunoch and say since I don't have a dick that this is my way of masturbating? LOL!

Well...I could do that if you really want me too jk BTW, I did not call you ignorant, I called you ignorant on the SUBJECT. Everybody is ignorant about many things.....there are plenty of things I am ignorant to.

You're speculating, I'm offering an opinion based on fact. Why not use the evidence provided in both BN's and Hella's experience, combined with the third case, along with what we know about Tren's chemical structure and how it reacts in the body, and come up with something more intelligent then name calling and saying I'm wrong?

Like I said above, there is/was no third case

And your explanation that both of them have some sort of genetic pre-disposition to contracting liver problems is speculation. You see this as a coincidence, I still say Tren is the major player in these issues in combination with other factors. You can go ahead and continue to take Tren and hope for the best - I wish you good luck.

Nobody will ever know...not us at least....not now. I have realized there is just to much info out there and too many different instances to blame it on ONE thing. My own theory is that there is a genetic pre-disposition, but that other "things" can/do definitely speed up the process. Quite frankly I am sick of wondering about it and trying to figure out the answer. I have been online and to the library almost everyday, and any theory I, or anybody else, can come up with is all speculation. That's it. I've been over it a million times and asked "WHY ME?" just as many. But its the way it goes....it sucks...but nothing I can do about it. It has been eating at my mind though nonetheless. It is natural to want an answer, but I am coming to the point that I realize that the answer is probably just not going to surface. I believe God just has other plans for me.

I don't need to justify anything I MAY or MAY NOT be doing. I'm trying to help out and get people to think and research before they continue on thier journey to get huge muscle and end up in the hospital for what purpose? To win a contest? If you're a pro, and you're making money from endorsements and winning shows (i.e., Cutler and Coleman) then you can afford all the doctor's visits and tests you want to clean out your system and never have to worry about severe problems.

...and I appreciate that BBB, I really do. Thanks for your time...seriously, but don't get bent out of shape over it. And no....I am not saying that you are, but just saying it JUST IN CASE you are You're a good bro.

This is what you guys aren't getting, Hella and Aesop. Both of you need to think to yourself what this game is all about: Getting big for the sake of .. what? Are either of you competitive? If so, how much money have you made so far from your bodybuilding endeavors? How much have you spent? How much time effort and energy have you devoted to the goal of getting your chest 5 inches bigger over the last 5 years for the sole purpose of being big?

See this is where I start to question your motives and wonder why the heck you are bringing me up in the paragraph above? How do I need to re-think? As you could/should have probably been able to tell from my original postings, I have been just as safe if not safer than most on this board. I kept things reasonable and I felt like I balanced things out pretty well. I was not so caught up in BB'ing that it was the only facet of my life. I am not that guy. It made things harder, but like I said, I kept a decent balance. I take offense to your questions above simply because I DID ask myself all those questions and I DID put all those things in perspective and consider my outcomes before I acted. I believe my methods and thinking process were pretty conservative (except maybe the decision to stay on a low dose between cycles). Now this bullshit has happened to me and everything bit me in the ass. All this stuff has given me a WHOLE new perspective on life and BB'ing in general. Sure I would love to keep growing like crazy and get big (who on here wouldn't), but with my situation, it is simply not worth it anymore. I just have to accept that. It will be tough to be in the gym now and maybe not have the gawking stares while training heavy or the nice compliments. These are certainly not what I did all this for, but they were a nice plus none the less. If you say there aren't then you are a liar. I will just simply get VERY lean now and stay there year around and pick up TONS of ladies You know they all like the skinny leaner guys anyways. I will jsut be the not-so-skinny but lean guy My thinking has changed for the better, but then again I don't think it was 'too' bad to begin with...considering the circumstances.

To answer some of your questions...yes, I did compete. I was young so I had a ways to go to be "competitive" on a higher level, but I felt like I could have made it there over the next few years without getting too cavalier with things. I even made a little money doing some modeling stuff when I was in shape. Not enough to justify all this, but I loved this lifestyle like anybody else does and life was good. I set plenty of time, effort, and dedication aside for my training and goals, but like I said above, it didn't take over my life. It definitely had an effect, but I did what I did because it made me happy and because it was the ONE thing I am/was TRULY PASSIONATE about. PERIOD. Now I would have to ask you the same questions. I am purely guessing here, but I would speculate that you are doing some of these "things", so I have to pose these same questions to you. It almost sounds a little hypocritical for you to ask those things. Hell, WHY DOES ANYBODY DO IT???? You act like I did something COMPLETELY wrong compared to everyone else out there.

I digress - the bottom line is if this discussion is going to degrade into a meaningless semantic breakdown and insulting then I want no part of it. I seem to have offended one person whom I don't know from a hole in wall (AESOP) and convinced Hella that I'm "angry" because I said TREN IS HARSH ... ?? You guys need to evaluate what's really going on here.

Once again, I don't know why I was brought up here. I said in previous posts that you "sounded" angry, but that it was hard for me to tell becuase of the nature of the internet and not being able to read someones "tone" of voice. I never had a problem at all. I even appreciated your input.

Look BBB< you seem like a good guy. I have read many of your posts over my time here and you are a good guy form what I can tell, but man you just come of SO wrong sometimes in the way you word things. Either way, I got no hard feelings. I am not mad at all.

 

[aesop]

Ok, this is a good guess, but this is not based on anything you know for sure. What we know for sure is that both BN and Hella were taking tren and developed the exact same condition. All you're doing is saying, "This is what may have happened IF they are pre-disposed to have this." That's speculation.



Hmm.. I don't believe saying "blah blah" but if I did, I retract all previous "blah blah"'s from my post.

I'm not sure why you and Hella are so sensitive to the Tren argument. I'm saying it's Tren - you can disagree, but don't attempt to discredit my opinion because you think it's wrong. I'm not going to repeat what I already wrote three times, so you can go back and re-read my posts - I never blamed Tren EXCLUSIVELY, I said it was the common denominator. By the way, there are THREE people who have problems with this. You can find the third in a previous message I posted in this thread.



It could also be due to fake gear either of them injected thinking it was one thing but it ended up being another. But both you and I are speculating if I were to use that argument. The facts still show the common denominator is the Tren.



OH I see, that's my real goal here. Not to try to help out and figure out what the cause of these liver problems are, but rather to justify the fact that taking all other gear is ok? That's laughable.

Look man, if you take lots of tren, that's cool. God speed to you. I hope you have zero problems and never develop liver cysts. But be careful either way, because that Tren is pretty harsh.



Relax - no need to get angry. Let's not enter childish mode because we disagree. We're trying to have a discussion and get to the bottom of these problems so they wont occur again. Understand?



One guy says ignorant, the other uneducated. Why not call me a eunoch and say since I don't have a dick that this is my way of masturbating? LOL!

Look, if I use your argument against you I can make you look silly too:

"Unless you know why they are caused exactly (scientific proof from a controlled randomized group) and can identify the mechanism which causes small groups of hepatocytes to grow and divide without developing bile ducts, your opinion of what DID NOT cause baldnazi and hella swole's HA's is not [warranted] because it is extremely uneducated. "

You're speculating, I'm offering an opinion based on fact. Why not use the evidence provided in both BN's and Hella's experience, combined with the third case, along with what we know about Tren's chemical structure and how it reacts in the body, and come up with something more intelligent then name calling and saying I'm wrong?



This is degrading into a semantics argument. Ok, if you wish...

"A theory does not change into a scientific law with the accumulation of new or better evidence. A theory will always be a theory, a law will always be a law."

If you understand that statement, then you will see how a theory is merely an opinion based on facts. I don't need to explain this further, do I?



And your explanation that both of them have some sort of genetic pre-disposition to contracting liver problems is speculation. You see this as a coincidence, I still say Tren is the major player in these issues in combination with other factors. You can go ahead and continue to take Tren and hope for the best - I wish you good luck.



Who is more of a dumb ass: the guy who ignores the clues or the clueless keyboard scientist who goes around regurgitating OLD scientific studies? You're taking my Tren argument as an attack on you or something, otherwise you wouldn't resort to high-school level name calling and insulting. I think you're projecting a fear here that I may be correct, and some day your Tren usage will catch up with you.

I don't need to justify anything I MAY or MAY NOT be doing. I'm trying to help out and get people to think and research before they continue on thier journey to get huge muscle and end up in the hospital for what purpose? To win a contest? If you're a pro, and you're making money from endorsements and winning shows (i.e., Cutler and Coleman) then you can afford all the doctor's visits and tests you want to clean out your system and never have to worry about severe problems.

This is what you guys aren't getting, Hella and Aesop. Both of you need to think to yourself what this game is all about: Getting big for the sake of .. what? Are either of you competitive? If so, how much money have you made so far from your bodybuilding endeavors? How much have you spent? How much time effort and energy have you devoted to the goal of getting your chest 5 inches bigger over the last 5 years for the sole purpose of being big?

I digress - the bottom line is if this discussion is going to degrade into a meaningless semantic breakdown and insulting then I want no part of it. I seem to have offended one person whom I don't know from a hole in wall (AESOP) and convinced Hella that I'm "angry" because I said TREN IS HARSH ... ?? You guys need to evaluate what's really going on here.

Aesop, you're a smart guy when it comes to these types of things and I've read all 13 of your other posts. But why the name calling? Did I offend you directly?



The only statement I can agree with here.

I didn't think I was name calling and I don't remember naming anyone specifically.

Lets clear things up I am not a body builder and don't want to be. I don't use tren. I have a degree in exercise physiology and my cscs. I am fascinated by human performance, but I am only an average athlete. I do work hard in the gym and experiment with different things to improve my own performance as well as other "real" athletes and bb'ers that I work with.

I did not call you uneducated, I said that your theory was. Since you are basing your theory on the observation that 2 people have HA's and have used tren, you also have to account for other potential variables. I don't like your reasoning that tren is harsh when liver damage is not the cause of HA's. It may well be tren, but tell me what do you know about tren that would make it likely to cause this problem. I can think of few things of the dome but I sure as hell would not tell hella swole and baldnazi that there use of tren was wreckless and had to be the cause, when it could be so many other things. Guess what not only did they all use tren they all used AAS which could lead to elevated levels of various hormones. Have they all used igf1, or hgh, could one or all them developed this without the use of AAS? The point is, that ha's are a very rare condition that normally are not life threating or limiting. If it is elvated prolactin then tren could be the culprit but we don't know that. Any AAS could be responsible if increased igf1, estro, or progesterone are to blame. If you really want to be safe don't use AAS, lift weights 3 times per week and do 30-90 minutes of cardio everday.

I was offended because you were clearly trying to defend your AAS use, and telling others that tren use is irresponsible, when you have nothing but an uneducated opinion to back up your claims. If you do obtain education on the topic then please share.
The issue is that the cause for increased incidence of ha's could be a variety of things and you are jumping on one commonality when in fact they may share many.

I had/have no issue with you and I wish you the best in life as well.

 

[aesop]

that was my 15th post. Am I more credible now, or do have to reach some magic # of post before my knowledge counts for anything? Maybe I should go bump all of the threads and get to 600 post maybe more people will take me seriously then? YA think

 

[Athlete]

If you do obtain education on the topic then please share.

I was pondering weither to start a new thread or not, but since this thread contains a lot of valuable discussion, I thought I'd just add this little tidbit here and bump the thread:

"The pathogenesis is thought to be related to a generalized vascular ectasia that develops due to exposure of the vasculature of the liver to oral contraceptives and related synthetic steroids. Estrogen may exert an influence via estrogen receptors on hepatocytes. However, this remains controversial. Adenomas also have been associated with diabetes mellitus and glycogen storage disease (GSD), leading to speculation as to whether imbalances between insulin and glucagon also play a role.

Patients with GSD are more likely to present with multiple lesions. Lesions associated with GSD often appear in younger patients (early third decade of life) and have a male-to-female ratio of 2:1. In this group, the abnormal amounts of stored glycogen may have some effect, perhaps oncogene stimulation. Insulin and glucagon appear to play a larger role because GSD-related adenomas have been reported to seemingly disappear with dietary manipulation. "

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic48.htm

 

[G.E.R.M]

..

where does an opinion go to get educated. is there a special school or certificate program ?

I didn't think I was name calling and I don't remember naming anyone specifically.

Lets clear things up I am not a body builder and don't want to be. I don't use tren. I have a degree in exercise physiology and my cscs. I am fascinated by human performance, but I am only an average athlete. I do work hard in the gym and experiment with different things to improve my own performance as well as other "real" athletes and bb'ers that I work with.

I did not call you uneducated, I said that your theory was. Since you are basing your theory on the observation that 2 people have HA's and have used tren, you also have to account for other potential variables. I don't like your reasoning that tren is harsh when liver damage is not the cause of HA's. It may well be tren, but tell me what do you know about tren that would make it likely to cause this problem. I can think of few things of the dome but I sure as hell would not tell hella swole and baldnazi that there use of tren was wreckless and had to be the cause, when it could be so many other things. Guess what not only did they all use tren they all used AAS which could lead to elevated levels of various hormones. Have they all used igf1, or hgh, could one or all them developed this without the use of AAS? The point is, that ha's are a very rare condition that normally are not life threating or limiting. If it is elvated prolactin then tren could be the culprit but we don't know that. Any AAS could be responsible if increased igf1, estro, or progesterone are to blame. If you really want to be safe don't use AAS, lift weights 3 times per week and do 30-90 minutes of cardio everday.

I was offended because you were clearly trying to defend your AAS use, and telling others that tren use is irresponsible, when you have nothing but an uneducated opinion to back up your claims. If you do obtain education on the topic then please share.
The issue is that the cause for increased incidence of ha's could be a variety of things and you are jumping on one commonality when in fact they may share many.

I had/have no issue with you and I wish you the best in life as well.

 

[TANNED]

sorry but 40mg dbol for 3-4 weeks is abuse in my books

good luck and i wish u rapid recovery

 

[ironwill]

sorry but 40mg dbol for 3-4 weeks is abuse in my books

good luck and i wish u rapid recovery

I would call it USE, not abuse...Why do you call it abuse??
Personally, i have only gone as high as 20-30 mgs, but why is 40 abuse for such a short time as 3-4 weeks??

 

[bhumik]

I have been doing some research on this stuff. and it seems like,, its more because of high levels of estrogen then AAS itself. Thats why lots of woman taking pill (estrogen which is a steroid) get it.. And lots of AAS users get it.. But I think the culprit is estrogen,, not pills or nolvadex or anti estrogens.. like mentioned somewhere in this thread..